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Aid Floatillas Attacked

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    #272
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    As I said elsewhere:

    Over lunch I re-watched some of the videos on a bigger TV. The Israeli troops were getting their heads kicked in when they landed - one fellow had a solder down in a doorway and was beating the head off of him with a metal bar.

    There was no shooting happening at this point.

    I daresay what happened was:

    1. A soldier lost his rag with someone kicking his head in and blew him away.

    2. A "protestor" get a weapon off of a soldier and things kicked off when either a. The Israeli's saw this and shot him or b. The protestor opened fire

    3. In the struggles, a weapon went off by accident and it kicked off from there

    Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.


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    #273
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    just in case yo havnt seen it yet makikomi you have been accused of working for mossad over in the politics forum because of your visitor messages this morning


    Dammit my cover is blown?... Anyone buying or selling a passport?.


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    #274
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.

    As I said elsewhere as well:

    The armed men were pirates, and even if you version of events are true, Israel is still in the wrong.


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    #275
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    'People' or the person attacking him with the wood?.
    There is footage of one man going at one israeli commando with what looks like a stick, one on one i'm sure a trained commando can take down a guy only angry at an aid ship getting boarded on its way to bring aid to gaza. How 18 people get murdered as a result of this is beyond me. There is no justification for the shooting of unarmed civilians and a man with a stick.


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    #276
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Strikes been called in 48 regions of Israel and protests in Haifa Tel Aviv and Jerusalem

    Reuters

    http://www.alternativenews.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2625:popular-protests-strikes-called-in-west-bank-israel-in-protest-of-israeli-killing-of-at-least-15-freedom-flotilla- activists-&catid=119:english&Itemid=878

    Popular Protests, Strikes Called in West Bank, Israel in Protest of Israeli Killing of at least 15 Freedom Flotilla Activists
    Palestinian popular committees and parties from across the political spectrum have called for popular demonstrations to be conducted at 2pm today (31 May) in the centres of West Bank cities in protest at the Israeli killing of at least 15 activists from the Freedom Flotilla and wounding of dozens. A three day strike is also being planned in the West Bank, called by the Palestinian Authority. Popular demonstrations will also be conducted this evening at 7pm in the cities of Haifa, Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, while the High Monitoring Committee of Arabs in Israel has called for a general strike to be held tomorrow, 1 June. Demonstrations are currently being organised for Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion Universities, to be held this afternoon.

    Palestinian and Israeli activists are currently (11.30 local time) on their way to the coastal city of Ashdod, to where the Israeli army has announced it will bring the captured Freedom Flotilla boats, activists and 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian goods on board. Israeli radio is reporting confrontations there between anti-occupation activists and right-wing demonstrators.


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    #277
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    wes wrote: »
    As I said elsewhere as well:

    The armed men were pirates, and even if you version of events are true, Israel is still in the wrong.
    Suicide by cop. The protestors, or a small set of them, wanted the PR victory by provoking the Israeli's.

    Israeli's meanwhile were wrong to take the ships. Shoulda shot out their rudders and towed them into port.


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    #278
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.

    Yes, right or wrong bedamned, you should never defend yourself against an aggressor. When German tanks roll into Poland you accept their mighty force and don't fight back or declare war on them.


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    #279
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Shoulda shot out their rudders and towed them into port.

    Eh, why shot them in the first place?


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    #280
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Eh, why shot them in the first place?
    Because they were breaking a blockade.


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    #281
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    There is footage of one man going at one israeli commando with what looks like a stick, one on one i'm sure a trained commando can take down a guy only angry at an aid ship getting boarded on its way to bring aid to gaza. How 18 people get murdered as a result of this is beyond me. There is no justification for the shooting of unarmed civilians and a man with a stick.

    Well to be honest I'm having a hard time getting my head around such a big body count.

    But one man, armed or not, attacking an armed soldier will almost always get shot - I'd shoot someone coming at me in similar circumstances.


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    #282
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Suicide by cop. The protestors, or a small set of them, wanted the PR victory by provoking the Israeli's.

    Israeli's meanwhile were wrong to take the ships. Shoulda shot out their rudders and towed them into port.

    No, it was not suicide by cop, they didn't think the IDF would go on a killing spree, and it is frankly disgusting, that anyone would attempt to excuse, the murderous actions of a pack of pirates imho, without a shred of proof, to back up there frankly absurd and nonsensical claim.

    Israel had no right to go anywhere near those ships, and instead decided to kill a lot of people. What happened is Israel fault, and no amount of obfuscation will change that.


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    #283
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Suicide by cop. The protestors, or a small set of them, wanted the PR victory by provoking the Israeli's.

    Israeli's meanwhile were wrong to take the ships. Shoulda shot out their rudders and towed them into port.

    You sure type a lot of shít. Having guns doesn't give anyone or any country the right to do whatever they like. If a foreign military illegally invades my property I am entitled to defend it. The odds are I would cower in a corner and cry, but if I tried to fight back I would be within my rights. The Israelis had no legal jurisdiction over the region those ships were in, nor has it any history of claiming it as the ships were still outside their illegal exclusion zone. But once again don't let the facts get in the way of fantasy.


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    #284
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    ...Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.
    Question:
    If your on a boat sailing thru international waters and suddenly find your transport invaded by a masked, armed force, do you:

    a. Run for cover and allow yourself to be possibly taken hostage/prisoner?
    b. Fight to fend off the mid-night unknown dark invaders?
    c. Start praying?

    ...and what if the place is different and your on an oil tanker?

    International waters is just that - international waters - so I wouldn't be too quick to condemn those that took to defending themselves against strange unknown armed men suddenly appearing in the night anywhere.


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    #285
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Because they were breaking a blockade.

    Was the boundaries of the naval blockade in international waters on the Gaza sea boarder in the Mediterranean?


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    #286
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Because they were breaking a blockade.
    An illegal blockade.


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    #287
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    wes wrote: »
    No, it was not suicide by cop, they didn't think the IDF would go on a killing spree, and it is frankly disgusting, that anyone would attempt to excuse, the murderous actions of a pack of pirates imho, without a shred of proof, to back up there frankly absurd and nonsensical claim.

    Israel had no right to go anywhere near those ships, and instead decided to kill a lot of people. What happened is Israel fault, and no amount of obfuscation will change that.
    Israel has every right to keep up a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza.

    These people had every right to try and run it.

    But they should have surrendered when the troops landed.

    To say the Israeli's were the first ones to use violence is to make an assumption.

    From the video evidence I can see, Israeli troops were being lain into before the firing started.

    But the Israeli's are always guilty...


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    #288
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

    But one man, armed or not, attacking an armed soldier will almost always get shot - I'd shoot someone coming at me in similar circumstances.

    So one pi$$ed off aid worker attacking commandos boarding a ship destined for an area that badly needs aid, is going to get shot if he tries to attack a commando who is highly trained in krav maga among other things?


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    #289
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

    But one man, armed or not, attacking an armed soldier will almost always get shot - I'd shoot someone coming at me in similar circumstances.

    What, a tough 'trained' man like you would not be able to disarm a man with a stick or pipe. So instead you blow their brains out. Yeah, that's tough all right.


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    #290
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Israel has every right to keep up a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza.

    O yes and let the people of Gaza suffer under the blockade, what about their security.
    Nijmegen wrote: »
    To say the Israeli's were the first ones to use violence is to make an assumption.

    And vice versa.


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    #291
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Biggins wrote: »
    Question:
    If your on a boat sailing thru international waters and suddenly find your transport invaded by a masked, armed force, do you:

    a. Run for cover and allow yourself to be possibly taken hostage/prisoner?
    b. Fight to fend off the mid-night unknown dark invaders?
    c. Start praying?

    it dosnt sound like it was sudden or by an unknown force

    it sounds like they were told repeatedly what they needed to do and it was made clear they would be stopped from doing otherwise

    they were then boarded and they would have known exactly who it was doing the boarding


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    #292
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    nded.

    To say the Israeli's were the first ones to use violence is to make an assumption.

    Unless they were being attacked with sticks while sitting in the helicopters its safe to say that the israeli's were the first to use violence, masked men with assault weapons bailing down onto your deck is a pretty overt act of violence


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    #293
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Israel has every right to keep up a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza.

    These people had every right to try and run it.

    But they should have surrendered when the troops landed.

    To say the Israeli's were the first ones to use violence is to make an assumption.

    From the video evidence I can see, Israeli troops were being lain into before the firing started.

    But the Israeli's are always guilty...
    They dont have every right, it is internationally recognised that the blockade is illegal yet nothing is done about it.

    They did for the most part surrender. You can see footage of people on the ground or on their knees forced into this position by the IDf commandos who should not have been aboard the ship at all.

    Unarmed civilians Vs highly trained IDF commandos, seriously if you are looking for justification for this massacre then let go of the straws you are clutching at the minute.


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    #294
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    So one pi$$ed off aid worker attacking commandos boarding a ship destined for an area that badly needs aid, is going to get shot if he tries to attack a commando who is highly trained in krav maga among other things?

    Yes.

    It's training, it's an order, it's your job...

    Something most civvies haven't a clue about... impossible to teach ye about it too. In most cases the soldier doesn't even know what he is actually doing, he is just carrying out orders.


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    #295
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Kivaro wrote: »
    What, a tough 'trained' man like you would not be able to disarm a man with a stick or pipe. So instead you blow their brains out. Yeah, that's tough all right.

    its not their job to disarm


    again these are not police we are talking about they are not there to keep the peace and use the least force necessary they are then to win in a situation using overwhelming force

    using soldiers and what you should expect from then is very different from using a police force and what you would expect from them

    its the main reason why the army are not allowed be used to enforce the law


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    #296
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Couple more questions that maybe someone could answer:

    * Did the invaders actually have on them identifying marks saying who they were clearly?
    * If someone knew these 6 boats were on the way - could Israel not have got one at least some of its state boats, pulled along side and/or in the light of day radioed "prepare to be boarded?"
    (surely they knew they were coming and had time to get some military boats to create a visible deterrent any way?)
    * Why exactly the midnight assault - when the boats supposedly had been cleared by reliable countries customs of any thing of ill repute?


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    #297
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Israel has every right to keep up a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza.

    No they don't. The blockade flouts international law. And the ships had not come into that exclusion zone.


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    #298
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »
    Yes.

    It's training, it's an order, it's your job...

    Something most civvies haven't a clue about... impossible to teach ye about it too. In most cases the soldier doesn't even know what he is actually doing, he is just carrying out orders.

    The way this Israeli operation was organised it's as if they expected to be combating terrorist forces.


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    #299
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    From the video evidence I can see, Israeli troops were being lain into before the firing started.

    But the Israeli's are always guilty...

    Of course they are, they had no rights to be on those ships.

    If I had a gun and I stormed the Israeli embassy tonight and someone in the embassy tries to fight back does that make it ok for me to start shooting?


    Disclaimer: I have no intention of doing this, nor do I advocate anyone else doing so. I'm just creating a scenario to illustrate a point.


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    #300
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »
    Yes.

    It's training, it's an order, it's your job...

    Something most civvies haven't a clue about... impossible to teach ye about it too. In most cases the soldier doesn't even know what he is actually doing, he is just carrying out orders.
    I'm sorry but if i was ordered to pull the trigger on unarmed aid workers aboard a ship to a region that badly needs the supplies, I would and could not pull the trigger.


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    #301
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    So one pi$$ed off aid worker attacking commandos boarding a ship destined for an area that badly needs aid, is going to get shot if he tries to attack a commando who is highly trained in krav maga among other things?
    Kivaro wrote: »
    What, a tough 'trained' man like you would not be able to disarm a man with a stick or pipe. So instead you blow their brains out. Yeah, that's tough all right.


    Yup, like it or lump it thats what happens when you attack a soldier.


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