Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Aid Floatillas Attacked

Options
1…89111314…55

Comments

  • Options
    #302
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    I'm sorry but if i was ordered to pull the trigger on unarmed aid workers aboard a ship to a region that badly needs the supplies, I would and could not pull the trigger.

    well first of all just following orders is clearly not an excuse

    however the evidence appear to show that they were not unarmed aid workers and they were not cowering the corners being slaughtered they were actively attacking armed soliders


  • Options
    #303
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Israel has every right to keep up a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza.

    No, they don't. The siege is illegal,
    Nijmegen wrote: »
    These people had every right to try and run it.

    Yes, they did.
    Nijmegen wrote: »
    But they should have surrendered when the troops landed.

    The IDF should not have boarded in the first place, actually. The IDF were the aggressors, and they then proceeded to kill a bunch of people.
    Nijmegen wrote: »
    To say the Israeli's were the first ones to use violence is to make an assumption.

    No, it isn't, plenty of video's show this to be true, and even if I am wrong. The IDF boarding was an act of aggression, so Israel is in the wrong either way.
    Nijmegen wrote: »
    From the video evidence I can see, Israeli troops were being lain into before the firing started.

    Yes, and from the evidence I seen, they shot first, and the video you seen was edited to give a false impression.
    Nijmegen wrote: »
    But the Israeli's are always guilty...

    No, there not, but in this instance, they are.


  • Options
    #304
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    Yup, like it or lump it thats what happens when you attack a soldier.

    WHY THE HELL WERE SOLDIERS PUT ON THE BOAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!


  • Options
    #305
    Pauleta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,778 ✭✭✭Pauleta


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    I'm sorry but if i was ordered to pull the trigger on unarmed aid workers aboard a ship to a region that badly needs the supplies, I would and could not pull the trigger.

    You would if you were getting hit with a metal bar and somebody was trying to wrestle your weapon from you or if it was happening to one of your fellow soldiers.


  • Options
    #306
    doncarlos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    evidence appear to show that they were not unarmed aid workers and they were not cowering the corners being slaughtered they were actively attacking armed soliders

    What evidence? Also were they attacking armed soldiers or defending themselves?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #307
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    well first of all just following orders is clearly not an excuse

    however the evidence appear to show that they were not unarmed aid workers and they were not cowering the corners being slaughtered they were actively attacking armed soliders

    Possibly trying to defend themselves?


  • Options
    #308
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    Yup, like it or lump it thats what happens when you attack a soldier.
    Its that black and white,if an angry aid worker attacks a highly trained commando and he cannot get you to the ground without a bullet?


  • Options
    #309
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    WHY THE HELL WERE SOLDIERS PUT ON THE BOAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

    because the boat was breaking israeli law and from the israelis point of vview potentially was trying to supply weapons to their enemies

    that is why


  • Options
    #310
    Keano
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Biggins wrote: »
    Couple more questions that maybe someone could answer:

    * If someone knew these 6 boats were on the way - could Israel not have got one at least some of its state boats, pulled along side and/or in the light of day radioed "prepare to be boarded?"
    (surely they knew they were coming and had time to get some military boats to create a visible deterrent any way?)

    Great questions and ones I would like to see answered but sadly they never will be.


  • Options
    #311
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »
    Yes.

    It's training, it's an order, it's your job...

    Something most civvies haven't a clue about... impossible to teach ye about it too. In most cases the soldier doesn't even know what he is actually doing, he is just carrying out orders.

    And you would be in breach of international law. "I was only following orders" is not deemed a justifiable defense for committing crimes.
    An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.

    "I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.

    http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #312
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    doncarlos wrote: »
    What evidence? Also were they attacking armed soldiers or defending themselves?

    the videos that have been released from the aid workers themselves of the ship being boarded show aid workers attacking soldiers

    now certainly it dosnt appear to be all the aid workers but i have seen one video were an aid worker is very clearly laying into a soldier and the soldier did not shoot(in the course of the video anyway)

    im not prepared to accept that this was the only incident that led to the shooting for so many people


  • Options
    #313
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    because the boat was breaking israeli law and from the israelis point of vview potentially was trying to supply weapons to their enemies

    that is why

    The thing is, Israeli law only applies to Israeli territory.


  • Options
    #314
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    After Isreal getting away with murder (literally) during the 8-years of the Bush Administration without ever so much as being condemened by the US even once, it will be interesting to see how Obama handles this - his first really similar test from this region.

    So far, the White House "Deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy".

    Not pasing the test so far Barrak! It has a 'fudge the issue' approach written all over it - again!


  • Options
    #315
    Keano
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    Yup, like it or lump it thats what happens when you attack a soldier.
    Which could have been avoided if they had boarded the ship during the day and seen that they were attacked by sticks.


  • Options
    #316
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    because the boat was breaking israeli law and from the israelis point of vview potentially was trying to supply weapons to their enemies

    that is why

    Not while they were outside the exclusion zone they weren't.


  • Options
    #317
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    PeakOutput wrote: »

    however the evidence appear to show that they were not unarmed aid workers and they were not cowering the corners being slaughtered they were actively attacking armed soliders
    Link to this footage please? The ship was checked by customs officials in Turkey and found to be carrying no weapons at all, so how could there have been aid workers armed with anything other than light pieces of wood?

    Why were the Israeli soldiers aboard the ship to get attacked in the first place? They should not have been on board a ship trying to deliver much needed aid to Gaza, even if they were going through an internationally recognised illegal blockade?

    Even in the highly unlikely situation that more than one person decided to try and fend off a commando, this could not happen if they were not aboard the aid ship.


  • Options
    #318
    Keano
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    the videos that have been released from the aid workers themselves of the ship being boarded show aid workers attacking soldiers

    now certainly it dosnt appear to be all the aid workers but i have seen one video were an aid worker is very clearly laying into a soldier and the soldier did not shoot(in the course of the video anyway)

    im not prepared to accept that this was the only incident that led to the shooting for so many people
    And I am the glad the aid worked did. You would do the exact same thing if a soldier came at you.


  • Options
    #319
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    because the boat was breaking israeli law and from the israelis point of vview potentially was trying to supply weapons to their enemies

    that is why
    What israeli law where they breaking? They were in international waters and had not entered Gaza's waters so had not broken the ilegal blockade.


  • Options
    #320
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Keano A Legend wrote: »
    Which could have been avoided if they had boarded the ship during the day and seen that they were attacked by sticks.

    The time of day would have no bearing on it, attacking a soldier will get you shot.
    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    WHY THE HELL WERE SOLDIERS PUT ON THE BOAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!

    As much as I'd love a better paying job - I'm NOT the Israeli Chief of Staff.


  • Options
    #321
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    The thing is, Israeli law only applies to Israeli territory.

    this has already been explained but,

    firslty the ships would have to go threw israeli water to get to any gazan port

    secondly the international waters laws do not apply if you have reasonable belief of their being a threat to your country

    someone is supplying hamas with weapons, it is reasonable to search and inspect the aid going into gaza as a result

    it is reasonable to suspect that the boats trying to avoid inspection may be the very ones supplying your enemy, this constitutes a possible threat

    it is for these reason that i dont have a problem with israel boarding the ships

    after that it depends on what happened during the boarding as to weather or not the shootings were justifiable in any way from what i have seen and heard so far that is 50-50


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #322
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    Yup, like it or lump it thats what happens when you attack a soldier.

    That can be open to interpretation.

    And of course, Israel have NEVER before shot unarmed civilians.
    But hey, it's Israel, and they can get away with it.

    In my soldering days, I would feel a lot tougher by just kicking someone where they would feel it if they came at me with a stick, instead of murdering them.


  • Options
    #323
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    The time of day would have no bearing on it, attacking a soldier will get you shot.

    And that makes it ok?


  • Options
    #324
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    The time of day would have no bearing on it, attacking a soldier will get you shot.
    Are you familiar with Krav maga? That soldier could have easily disarmed and got the aid worker to the ground if he wanted.

    This btw does not explain how 18 people were shot?


  • Options
    #325
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Kivaro wrote: »
    In my soldering days, I would feel a lot tougher by just kicking someone where they would feel it if they came at me with a stick, instead of murdering them.

    You were a soldier, and you don't get why someone attacking a soldier (armed or not) will be shot?.

    Seriously, were you a soldier?.


  • Options
    #326
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    The time of day would have no bearing on it, attacking a soldier will get you shot.

    Cut the bullshít, that doesn't give the right to shot and kill civilian in an area that it outside Israel territory. For all you know sir, these people might well have been defending themselves from the Israeli commandos.


  • Options
    #327
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    The Israeli Ambassodor needs to be expelled from Ireland and the people of this country need to boycott all Israeli products:mad:.


  • Options
    #328
    Drake66
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Drake66


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    The time of day would have no bearing on it, attacking a soldier will get you shot.

    It is a wonder how Irish soldiers ever managed to keep peace in volatile regions? Considering how necessary it is to kill multiple people after being "attacked" with sticks and fists of course.


  • Options
    #329
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Keano A Legend wrote: »
    And I am the glad the aid worked did. You would do the exact same thing if a soldier came at you.

    i would probably not be giving a soldier any reason to come at me in the first place and i certainly wouldnt be out near israel provoking them, in full knowledge of how they react to such situations

    also is it not fairly normal for even civilian ships to have some form of small arms on board?


  • Options
    #330
    El Horseboxo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭El Horseboxo


    I was on a ship that left Cyprus last January that was trying to bring aid to Gaza and we were surrounded by gun ships in International waters and told we would be fired upon. We all heard that very loud and clear but was denied by Israel. One of the ships a month or so beforehand had been rammed and almost sank. But of course this was also denied by Israel and quickly forgotten about.

    The aid ships this time are in the same vein as the one i was on. It is just aid and relief. Food, water, medicine, clothes, etc. The ship i was on was triple checked by independent overseers for content, it had politicians, journalists, religious men, and just your normal average person who happens to support bringing aid to Palestine. And not just Palestine. A person with that kind of political ideology supports all kinds of aid relief around the world. The ship even had Israelis on it. What has happened today could have easily happened to us. And i'm sure i would have read on here that i was just out for provocation and didn't care about Palestinian aid. If a solider comes onto a ship illegally in international waters armed to the hilt and starts being aggressive towards me i will stand my ground. I know the kind of stance these aid bringers make and it is usually standing and trying to block entrance to something. I just find it hard to believe that they would go and grab knives and start trying to attack IDF solidiers. Not without some extreme provocation or violence from the IDF in the first place. Some of the people that were on this ship were possibly on the ship i was on and i really just can't imagine the IDF coming on board and then being attacked. Obviously i don't know the facts but having been in the situation before and around the same organaizations i just find it really difficult to believe.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #331
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    Are you familiar with Krav maga? That soldier could have easily disarmed and got the aid worker to the ground if he wanted.

    This btw does not explain how 18 people were shot?
    Could he now? Krav maga, enabling Israeli soldiers to win wars... With their minds... As Eddie Izzard may say.

    Offering television-side critiques of the individual tactics of a man being beaten with a metal bar is really pushing hindsightism to the extreme.


Advertisement