Aid Floatillas Attacked

Nijmegen · 31-05-2010 2:59pm

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Notice the reported at the start and what he said, that shots had already been fired and that at least 2 people had been killed and many more injured.

If after a ship I was on was shot at after white flags had been raised and the IDF knowing there were no weapons aboard, then I would probably try and stop murdered getting aboard my ship aswell.

Still look at the video and see that people are armed with pretty much nothing. At the end you can see the people cowering on the ground, no threat to anyone.

I want to see the footage in the real order it was shot. I could splice that footage to make the Israeli troops look like ET going home.

People beating soldiers with anything are looking for trouble.

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 31-05-2010 3:00pm

I dont think you can blame the soldiers, they are trained to be defensive or offensive. Here they were boarding a ship, it was on offensive operation and when they were attacked with iron bars it was likely that this could lead to gunfire. But this is what happens when you use soldiers.

So dont blame the soldiers, blame the Israeli government for launching them onto an aid ship in a night strike.

doncarlos · 31-05-2010 3:00pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

People beating soldiers with anything are looking for trouble.

Masked armed men repelling onto ships from helicopters are looking for trouble.

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 3:01pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Video from the IDF

wes · 31-05-2010 3:02pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

People beating soldiers with anything are looking for trouble.

Soldiers attacking a boat were the ones looking for trouble.

iguana · 31-05-2010 3:02pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

i understand that

if they feel losing 19 lives was worth making their point then fair enough

i think it was reckless stupid and pointless

They had no idea whatsoever that Israel would murder foreign citizens in a region out of their jurisdiction. This response is unprecedented. The ships had European elected officials, foreign dignitaries and holocaust survivors on board in order to prevent this type of action. (A fairly standard means of defense when going into a dangerous situation is to bring people of a certain status so that any offense against them is a serious international incident.)

I'm going to assume you don't have friends on those ships. I do. I know exactly what they were expecting and it sure as shít wasn't this.

Ghost Train · 31-05-2010 3:02pm

zuroph wrote: »

at the protest in london
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkbnSYkgar8

saw that on sky, bit of a silly giggle but they did let the women who knew a few people on the boats talk for a few minutes about it, they probably won't go live again

EuskalHerria · 31-05-2010 3:02pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Video from the IDF

FYP

Nijmegen · 31-05-2010 3:02pm

doncarlos wrote: »

Masked armed men repelling onto ships from helicopters are looking for trouble.

As proven, they're a lot more able to dish it out. If you get boarded, you put up your hands, you get arrested and then you go to Israel and the media has a field day over that.

Instead, these guys wanted a fight and they provoked the Israelis, first by going to run their blockade, and then by attacking soldiers as they landed to take control of the ship and arrest the crew.

El Horseboxo · 31-05-2010 3:04pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

or you could just let them inspect the cargo and be on your way

its on video apparently,in the video i saw i didnt see any knives but i could certainly see a solider being beat on

Well with the one i was on they didn't want to inspect the cargo. We dropped anchor and asked why would it not be allowed in to Gaza. They told us to return to port of origin or else we would be fired upon without answering any of our questions. We were in International waters and don't fall under the jurisdiction of Israel so they have no right to carry out a search. Israel knows very well these aid ships do not carry any weapons as the reports of the searches are sent to them. Why do they treat these ships differently? If it was a cargo ship containing Playstations it would be allowed to dock and searched there in normal protocol. Not intercepted, stormed or threatened with being fired upon. I and anyone else on board would be happy to allow them to search it in that manner. Not with guns pointed in our direction.

If an Israeli soldier pushed or hit me yes i would fight back. Is that a form of martyrdom on my behalf? No it is self defense in the same manner as how i would react to somebody pushing or hitting me on the streets of Dublin. Just because the person is a soldier doesn't mean i should hold him in some higher form of authority. The IDF are aggressive in situations like this and i know from experience. It's not all please sit here and please let us search this. It is guns in your face bully tactics. You have seen clashes between protesters and the Garda here where pushing and shoving is involved and the protesters try stand their ground. I imagine a similar scenario happened on the ship. It's not a fear for your life situation and a punch does not warrant a bullet.

My name is URL · 31-05-2010 3:04pm

They really don't do themselves a lot of favors! I won't pass judgement on it until more light is thrown on exactly what happened but it'll be interesting to see if Israel give in to pressure and allow an international investigation to take place

wes · 31-05-2010 3:06pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

As proven, they're a lot more able to dish it out. If you get boarded, you put up your hands, you get arrested and then you go to Israel and the media has a field day over that.

Instead, these guys wanted a fight and they provoked the Israelis, first by going to run their blockade, and then by attacking soldiers as they landed to take control of the ship and arrest the crew.

The soldier were the one who engaged in provation by firing on the boat, and boarding it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 31-05-2010 3:06pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

The way this Israeli operation was organised it's as if they expected to be combating terrorist forces.

How would you want them to approach the ships? They wore standard issue kit. They may have had intel, correct or incorrect.

EuskalHerria wrote: »

I'm sorry but if i was ordered to pull the trigger on unarmed aid workers aboard a ship to a region that badly needs the supplies, I would and could not pull the trigger.

Same reason you wouldn't last a week in the army

iguana wrote: »

And you would be in breach of international law. "I was only following orders" is not deemed a justifiable defense for committing crimes.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm

It's not, but there are many cases where the order may seem perfectly legit. The soldiers may not have been told "Oh yea, and by the way, we are operating in international waters, so what you are doing is illegal"...

Kivaro wrote: »

That can be open to interpretation.

It's pretty clear actually.

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

You were a soldier, and you don't get why someone attacking a soldier (armed or not) will be shot?.

Seriously, were you a soldier?.

No... no he wasn't. He may have been in the FCA though

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

The Israeli Ambassodor needs to be expelled from Ireland and the people of this country need to boycott all Israeli products:mad:.

Quick, burn the witch, before we can prove she's a witch...

Drake66 wrote: »

It is a wonder how Irish soldiers ever managed to keep peace in volatile regions? Considering how necessary it is to kill multiple people after being "attacked" with sticks and fists of course.

It's quite possible that the Irish Army Personnel were not attacked and an attempt to disarm them was probably not made.

EuskalHerria wrote: »

When is it justifiable to shoot innocent volunteers bringing badly needed aid? According to some its when an aid worker goes at an IDF commando with a stick.

Yup, according to their military mandate. It's pretty straight forward training actually. Try to disarm a soldier, attack a soldier etc etc is just fcuking stupid.

I'm speaking about the basics, I have yet to give my opinion on the matter, just clearing up some stuff...

donfers · 31-05-2010 3:06pm

Pauleta wrote: »

The moment they they tried to take the Israeli's guns from them they were no longer aid workers they became combatants.

what? all of them? lol

I'll give the Israeli apologists something, their twisting and warping of logic to justify the slaughter of innocents is truly remarkable

EuskalHerria · 31-05-2010 3:06pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Instead, these guys wanted a fight and they provoked the Israelis, first by going to run their blockade, and then by attacking soldiers as they landed to take control of the ship and arrest the crew.

Wanted a fight? They could have fought with themselves at home if that was the case. Not many people make a note of trying to fight the IDF.

They were trying to deliver aid. When there ships were attacked, and people killed and soldiers boarded the ships of aid, they try to defend themselves.

I could not sit idly by and watch soldiers I knew had just previously killed innocent men and women come aboard a ship I was one for fear that they may and probably would kill again.

zuroph · 31-05-2010 3:08pm

Ghost Train wrote: »

saw that on sky, bit of a silly giggle but they did let the women who knew a few people on the boats talk for a few minutes about it, they probably won't go live again

loved her bit "bollox, and I don't care if you bleep that out"
"um..we're live"

Nijmegen · 31-05-2010 3:10pm

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Wanted a fight? They could have fought with themselves at home if that was the case. Not many people make a note of trying to fight the IDF.

They were trying to deliver aid. When there ships were attacked, and people killed and soldiers boarded the ships of aid, they try to defend themselves.

I could not sit idly by and watch soldiers I knew had just previously killed innocent men and women come aboard a ship I was one for fear that they may and probably would kill again.

We do not know the order in which things happened.

The Israeli video shows petrol bombs being used. These are not standard issue to the Israeli navy, insofar as I am aware. They are normally home made devices, prepared well in advance of use unless you want to blow yourself up.

I think these protestors were looking for a fight.

WIZE · 31-05-2010 3:11pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

If you get boarded, you put up your hands, you get arrested and then you go to Israel and the media has a field day over that

Isreal had no right to board the boat . They were Turkish registered boats with AID on board

Nijmegen wrote: »

Instead, these guys wanted a fight and they provoked the Israelis, first by going to run their blockade, and then by attacking soldiers as they landed to take control of the ship and arrest the crew.

Blockade was in international Waters . Isreal had no rights in Boarding the Boats

sickofwaiting · 31-05-2010 3:13pm

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Yes completely exaggerate what I said to try and dismiss the point I was making. A transparent lack of reason and intelligence. The soldier could have easily disarmed one man with a stick without the use of lethal force.

Why do you keep going on about a 'man with a stick'. I never knew trees grew on boats. He had a fricking iron bar. And believe it or not, real life is not like a Hollywood movie, no matter how much training you have had you are advised to try and escape from a situation where you are being attacked with a weapon rather than engage the attacker. The reason being one blow with a weapon and you could be incapacitated or rendered unconscious and then it's game over.

Obviously a solider in a hostile situation with no exit route can't just escape so what is he supposed to do? He cannot drop his gun and attempt to disarm a guy trying to smash his head in with an iron bar. He really has no option other than to shoot if the guy with the iron bar won't desist. That is why you don't attack a soldier with an iron bar.

Nijmegen · 31-05-2010 3:13pm

If the Israeli's did open fire first, they would not have landed their troops onto what their own heli-video shows to be a very crowded deck with people running around.

They would have opened fire and ordered the people to get down on their knees with their hands on their head before boarding.

Instead, they dropped their troops right in the middle of the people they had purportedly just been killing.

Most people I've met in my life would be down on the deck and surrendering at the first shot going over their heads.

This crowd was pumped up and they wanted to kick some Israeli soldiers around.

I don't believe the shooting started until after the soldiers boarded the vessel, and I believe it started because of violent people amongst the protestors.

Military operations are not as messy as this one. If they had intended to kill and subdue the protestors highly violently, they would have.

The Israeli's look more as if they were expecting the kind of resistance Shell met when it wanted to take protestors off one of its oil rigs, not violence.

donfers · 31-05-2010 3:14pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

As I said elsewhere:

Over lunch I re-watched some of the videos on a bigger TV. The Israeli troops were getting their heads kicked in when they landed - one fellow had a solder down in a doorway and was beating the head off of him with a metal bar.

There was no shooting happening at this point.

I daresay what happened was:

1. A soldier lost his rag with someone kicking his head in and blew him away.

2. A "protestor" get a weapon off of a soldier and things kicked off when either a. The Israeli's saw this and shot him or b. The protestor opened fire

3. In the struggles, a weapon went off by accident and it kicked off from there

Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.

you forgot

4. Chuch Norris parachuted in and ninja-kicked 100 of the nasty aid workers into the water, then turned around to conduct the IDF choir through a rousing version of the star spangled banner....hell it's as speculative and valid as any of the fiction you've posted there

biko · 31-05-2010 3:14pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

because the boat was breaking israeli law and from the israelis point of vview potentially was trying to supply weapons to their enemies

that is why

I think it was rather the attempt to "delegitimate the Jewish state" and the blockade?

This from Jpost:

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in a press conference on Monday that while he was sorry for lives lost, the organizers of the Gaza-bound protest flotilla were solely responsible for the outcome of the fatal IDF raid earlier in the day. Fifteen activists were killed and dozens wounded in the violent clashes.

Barak said that the soldiers tried to disperse the activists aboard the ship peacefully but were forced to open fire to protect themselves.
...
Ashkenazi noted that the Mavi Marmara, the only ship on which violence took place, was different than the other five ships of the flotilla. He said that five ships carried humanitarians and peace activists but the Mavi Marmara was sponsored by the extremist organization the IHH and those aboard acted in "extreme violence."

Good emotional language there. Well done.

There is no mention of protesters having weapons but I'm sure some will surface later. Or maybe he'll declare they were never looking for weapons in the first place.

Nijmegen · 31-05-2010 3:14pm

Most Haunted wrote: »

Isreal had no right to board the boat . They were Turkish registered boats with AID on board

Blockade was in international Waters . Isreal had no rights in Boarding the Boats

I'm not talking about their rights. I'm talking about common bloody sense. You don't start beating an armed man over the head with a metal bar unless you're prepared for him to open fire.

iguana · 31-05-2010 3:16pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Military operations are not as messy as this one. If they had intended to kill and subdue the protestors highly violently, they would have.

They did. Killing between 10 and 20 people is just that.

bambooze · 31-05-2010 3:17pm

Dunno if already posted but anyway, deserves viewing..

Peace activists attacking soldier..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nRbcwnp-l8

Peace activist attacking with a knife (slow motion)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co

EuskalHerria · 31-05-2010 3:18pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

We do not know the order in which things happened.

The Israeli video shows petrol bombs being used. These are not standard issue to the Israeli navy, insofar as I am aware. They are normally home made devices, prepared well in advance of use unless you want to blow yourself up.

I think these protestors were looking for a fight.

The video you I think posted previously had a reporterted that there had been killings before the IDF came aboard. If that is the case, then it is natural for those left aboard the ship to fear for there lives and they were not willing to be a spectator to their own deaths.

doncarlos · 31-05-2010 3:19pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

If you get boarded, you put up your hands, you get arrested and then you go to Israel and the media has a field day over that.

Arrested for what??? Israel had no right to board their boat never mind arrest anybody FFS

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 3:19pm

Stoopid facetube!

Anyway,protests have started all over the place,London and Tel-Aviv.

Nijmegen · 31-05-2010 3:19pm

iguana wrote: »

They did. Killing between 10 and 20 people is just that.

Landing your troops onto a hostile deck where they get the crap beat into them is not an intelligent military operation, when you have helis above that can clearly see what's going on.

If they wanted to, they would have roasted all of those people before setting a foot down.

Hell, one of their soldiers gets dragged and pushed onto a lower deck (bone breaking) and then gets kicked around while down there... Yeah, very convincing that they were expecting violent resistance when they got down there.

How many of the keyboard warriors here have ever heard a round go a few inches over their head? You wouldn't be waving a big metal bar at a soldier landing moments after live rounds have been eating away the paintwork. Partially trained conscripts get spooked enough at that, let alone peacenik protestors.

sickofwaiting · 31-05-2010 3:19pm

EuskalHerria wrote: »

How anyone can try and justify this is beyond me. The ships were previously checked and found to be carrying aid and volunteers, thats it. They were ruthlessly attacked in international waters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Seems the people on the ships weren't all the harmless gentle good samartins you were making them out to be. Based on this video I don't see how the Israeli's had any choice but to open fire. They were kicking the f**k out of the soldiers.

Aid Floatillas Attacked

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