Aid Floatillas Attacked

gavmcfad

Any more word on the 3 Irish aid workers on board?

Biggins

gavmcfad wrote: »

Any more word on the 3 Irish aid workers on board?

8 workers now: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/eight-irish-activists-on-aid-ships-2201367.html

The Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC) said it has not been able to contact any of its members on the ships.

I guess their phones were taken off them!
There goes any contradictory possible evidence.

Cowen condemns: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-condemns-israeli-flotilla-attack-2201682.html

iguana

sickofwaiting wrote: »

Seems the people on the ships weren't all the harmless gentle good samartins you were making them out to be. Based on this video I don't see how the Israeli's had any choice but to open fire.

Because they should never have been on the ships in the first place. If you invade someone's property you can't be surprised if they fight back. What you are saying is like this. When the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939 and some Polish citizens fought back the Nazis obviously had no choice but to begin killing them. Or if I invade you home with a gun and you fight back I have no choice but to start shooting your family.

donfers

In many ways this is a perfect microcosm of the whole Middle East conflict

First, Israel intervene completely illegally and aggressively

Second, this understandably provokes some rudimentary and disorganised reaction

Third, this reaction is met with hugely disproportionate violence and murder

WIZE

This from Jpost:

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in a press conference on Monday that while he was sorry for lives lost, the organizers of the Gaza-bound protest flotilla were solely responsible for the outcome of the fatal IDF raid earlier in the day. Fifteen activists were killed and dozens wounded in the violent clashes.

Barak said that the soldiers tried to disperse the activists aboard the ship peacefully but were forced to open fire to protect themselves.
...
Ashkenazi noted that the Mavi Marmara, the only ship on which violence took place, was different than the other five ships of the flotilla. He said that five ships carried humanitarians and peace activists but the Mavi Marmara was sponsored by the extremist organization the IHH and those aboard acted in "extreme violence."

How do you disperse people on a boat unless you want them to jump overboard

Local-womanizer

sickofwaiting wrote: »

[
Seems the people on the ships weren't all the harmless gentle good samartins you were making them out to be. Based on this video I don't see how the Israeli's had any choice but to open fire.

Nobody is disputing the fact that the soldiers were attacked,what is being disputed is the level of force used in return.

I don't see how this justifies troops to open fire tbh.

twinQuins

Nijmegen wrote: »

As proven, they're a lot more able to dish it out. If you get boarded, you put up your hands, you get arrested and then you go to Israel and the media has a field day over that.

Except this was in contravention of international law, so they had no basis to even arrest anyone.

Instead, these guys wanted a fight and they provoked the Israelis, first by going to run their blockade

Did they actually run them? Or is that just a paper-thin excuse to kill innocents?

and then by attacking soldiers as they landed to take control of the ship and arrest the crew.

The soldiers were the aggressors. Once again, they illegally boarded the ship, the crew were simply defending themselves.

EuskalHerria

sickofwaiting wrote: »

Seems the people on the ships weren't all the harmless gentle good samartins you were making them out to be. Based on this video I don't see how the Israeli's had any choice but to open fire.

Like I said, this was after people had already been shot and killed according to video footage that was posted previously.

The people aboard were frightened and angry, of course they were going to react to armed soldiers coming aboard there ship, for who knows what purpose?

The fact remains that these ships were full of aid workers bringing supplies to gaza, there was no need at all for the Israeli army to be there never mind kill 18 people!

Nijmegen

Morkarleth wrote: »

Except this was in contravention of international law, so they had no basis to even arrest anyone.



Did they actually run them? Or is that just a paper-thin excuse to kill innocents?



The soldiers were the aggressors. Once again, they illegally boarded the ship, the crew were simply defending themselves.

The crew were idiots, then. They could have been arrested and gone to Israel for their media coup.

What did they think, they'd beat and stab a few Israeli soldiers and the Israeli's would go away? "Ahh hang on lads, we've had YK, we've had 6 Days, but we ain't never had nothin as fierce as this lot!"

iguana

Biggins wrote: »

8 workers now: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/eight-irish-activists-on-aid-ships-2201367.html

Cowen condemns: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-condemns-israeli-flotilla-attack-2201682.html

There were 12 altogether but those on the MV Rachel Corrie are thought to be safe. Those on the Challenger 1 or other ships have not been heard from.

bambooze

For those harping on about international law..

International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

This San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea and signed by all UN members, says in paragraph 67:

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

:rolleyes:

My name is URL

sickofwaiting wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Seems the people on the ships weren't all the harmless gentle good samartins you were making them out to be. Based on this video I don't see how the Israeli's had any choice but to open fire. They were kicking the f**k out of the soldiers.

Look at who the uploader of that video is - http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

They're hardly going to be unbiased in how they report on these things

iguana

Morkarleth wrote: »

Did they actually run them? Or is that just a paper-thin excuse to kill innocents?

No, they were 22 miles outside of the illegal 68 mile exclusion zone.

Nijmegen

My name is URL wrote: »

Look at who the uploader of that video is - http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

They're hardly going to be unbiased in how they report on these things

Umm, that seems to be a fairly straight laced video, unless they photshopped in the first soldier getting dragged down onto the lower deck to be beaten around, for example?

twinQuins

Nijmegen wrote: »

The crew were idiots, then.

I see. They defended themselves so they're idiots.

They could have been arrested and gone to Israel for their media coup.

Proof that this was staged?

What did they think, they'd beat and stab a few Israeli soldiers and the Israeli's would go away? "Ahh hang on lads, we've had YK, we've had 6 Days, but we ain't never had nothin as fierce as this lot!"

When you've got heavily armed men bearing down on you, I think you'd do all in your power to defend yourself.
Push a man into a corner and he'll throw everything at you, as long as he thinks he's nothing to lose.

iguana

bambooze wrote: »

For those harping on about international law..

International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

This San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea and signed by all UN members, says in paragraph 67:

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

:rolleyes:

The blockade was illegal so that doesn't apply.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

wes

bambooze wrote: »

For those harping on about international law..

International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

This San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea and signed by all UN members, says in paragraph 67:

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

:rolleyes:

The blockade again is illegal, and as such Israel has no right to stop anyone, and as such are in the wrong.

PeakOutput

Local-womanizer wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Video from the IDF

that video is pretty damning no matter who released it i cant see how it could have been doctored

it also shows how if they simply wanted to kill people they could hve massacered everyone on that boat with ease

ScumLord

My name is URL wrote: »

Look at who the uploader of that video is - http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

They're hardly going to be unbiased in how they report on these things

Well to be fair the video speaks for itself the people on the boat are flaking anything coming out of the chopper. I don't know weather they where right to do it, I'd be on their side but I wouldn't chance my life with an Israeli armed forces, their notorious for being heavy handed, what did they really expect to happen?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

bambooze wrote: »

For those harping on about international law..

International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

This San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea and signed by all UN members, says in paragraph 67:

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

:rolleyes:

iguana wrote: »

The blockade was illegal so that doesn't apply.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Can anyone give me a link for an illegal blockade? What constitutes an illegal blockade etc etc.

KetchupKid

iguana wrote: »

Because they should never have been on the ships in the first place. If you invade someone's property you can't be surprised if they fight back. What you are saying is like this. When the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939 and some Polish citizens fought back the Nazis obviously had no choice but to begin killing them. Or if I invade you home with a gun and you fight back I have no choice but to start shooting your family.

+++++1
So true. How can someone justify the actions of the IDF! You can't, unless you are blind! I owned boats for many years and I've had boats sopped before and had friendly boarding for various checks and inspections, but I can't imagine commandos rappelling down onto a boat from a helicopter, unless it was an act of piracy or war. How else are the people on the ship going to react? If an armed commando was rappelling down onto my boat, I wouldn't be waiting for him with a cup of tea!

Steodonn

Morkarleth wrote: »

Except this was in contravention of international law, so they had no basis to even arrest anyone.



Did they actually run them? Or is that just a paper-thin excuse to kill innocents?



The soldiers were the aggressors. Once again, they illegally boarded the ship, the crew were simply defending themselves.

They were in international waters ( that Israel admits is international waters outside their illegal exclusion ) so if they did "run" the blockade the blockade is even more illegal than everyone said it was

North_West_Art

donfers wrote: »

In many ways this is a perfect microcosm of the whole Middle East conflict

First, Israel intervene completely illegally and aggressively

Second, this understandably provokes some rudimentary and disorganised reaction

Third, this reaction is met with hugely disproportionate violence and murder

+1

doncarlos

sickofwaiting wrote: »

Seems the people on the ships weren't all the harmless gentle good samartins you were making them out to be. Based on this video I don't see how the Israeli's had any choice but to open fire. They were kicking the f**k out of the soldiers.

What happened before the start of the video?? If I thought my life was in danger as I'd expect a lot of the aid workers thought I'd fight to survive too.

dr.bollocko

You have a situation where the IDF dropped on the ship and were met with force. Now there are at least 10 dead and more again injured. How quickly would you go from a scuffle where a soldier got stabbed to that number dead? Would it be seconds or minutes?

bambooze

PeakOutput wrote: »

that video is pretty damning no matter who released it i cant see how it could have been doctored

it also shows how if they simply wanted to kill people they could hve massacered everyone on that boat with ease

Damning indeed, but such evidence is always released too late by Israel.. the damage is done already and Israel is raked over the coals as usual.

Steodonn

Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »

Can anyone give me a link for an illegal blockade? What constitutes an illegal blockade etc etc.

I believe its one in international waters. Witch this one is in a so called exclusion zone that Israel has no right over. Looking for relevant documents now

EuskalHerria

PeakOutput wrote: »

it also shows how if they simply wanted to kill people they could hve massacered everyone on that boat with ease

Yes, we should definitely count our blessings that the IDF soldiers decided against killing everyone on board a ship with aid. A clear sign of dignity and good morality to leave surviving aid workers.

Kivaro

The posters who support the Israeli position of their brave commandos who 'peacefully' boarded the ship should really get a grip:

The ship was in international waters. The Israeli soldiers broke the law. And then committed murder. If the only person that was killed was the person with the pipe/stick attacking the soldier, then they may have some credence to their argument, but when at least 18 people are gunned down; they have another name for that ..... a massacre.

ScumLord

dr.bollocko wrote: »

You have a situation where the IDF dropped on the ship and were met with force. Now there are at least 10 dead and more again injured. How quickly would you go from a scuffle where a soldier got stabbed to that number dead? Would it be seconds or minutes?

seconds more than likely, once trained soldiers start shooting it's over in seconds and people are dead.