Aid Floatillas Attacked

twinQuins

Steodonn wrote: »

They were in international waters

I probably should've pointed out, in the post, that was the point I was making.

wes

Another video that show the IDF firing shots before boarding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U

So, looks like the IDF once again, engaged in some creative editing.

El Horseboxo

EuskalHerria wrote: »

The video you I think posted previously had a reporterted that there had been killings before the IDF came aboard. If that is the case, then it is natural for those left aboard the ship to fear for there lives and they were not willing to be a spectator to their own deaths.

A friend who was aboard one of the other ships has got word home that he is okay and his sister has told me that he said the videos floating around the net are after 2 activists had already being shot while trying to block entrance to the steering room. So perhaps the attacking of soliders is in response to that. I imagine the other ships were in communication so that must be how he knows. The videos i have seen so far show Israelis rappelling down into what already looks like a bit of a ruckus. So maybe there is truth to what i heard from his sister as i doubt activists were running around prepared and organized with steel bars waiting for troops to board. Anyways i don't know as this is third hand news but if you heard reports of that elsewhere maybe it's true.

doncarlos

Nijmegen wrote: »

The crew were idiots, then. They could have been arrested and gone to Israel for their media coup.

Once again I'll ask what right have Israel got to arrest anyone?

WIZE

Edit

darkman2

Am I the only one who thinks Isreal did the right thing? They are defending themselves.

dr.bollocko

ScumLord wrote: »

seconds more than likely, once trained soldiers start shooting it's over in seconds and people are dead.

I would think so too tbh. That doesn't really give you a lot of time to co-ordinate a proper reaction. Bloke runs at you with a knife as others are attacking also. Seconds later, people dead.
It's hard to see once they land on the ship and get attacked how it could happen any other way. 19 dead now on Sky News.

They are saying that the troops had paintball guns and were only to use live arms for self defence.

Local-womanizer

darkman2 wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks Isreal did the right thing? They are defending themselves.

Against aid

KetchupKid

dr.bollocko wrote: »

You have a situation where the IDF dropped on the ship and were met with force. Now there are at least 10 dead and more again injured. How quickly would you go from a scuffle where a soldier got stabbed to that number dead? Would it be seconds or minutes?

You must understand the Israeli logic, Israelis are more valuable than anyone else. One dead Israeli is equal to about 100 of the opposition. So if one Israeli officer was injured, 18 dead is about right. Why is anyone so surprised?

doncarlos

darkman2 wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks Isreal did the right thing? They are defending themselves.

From people carrying aid? What are they gonna do throw spuds at the soldiers?

EuskalHerria

El Horseboxo wrote: »

A friend who was aboard one of the other ships has got word home that he is okay and his sister has told me that he said the videos floating around the net are after 2 activists had already being shot while trying to block entrance to the steering room. So perhaps the attacking of soliders is in response to that. I imagine the other ships were in communication so that must be how he knows. The videos i have seen so far show Israelis rappelling down into what already looks like a bit of a ruckus. So maybe there is truth to what i heard from his sister as i doubt activists were running around prepared and organized with steel bars waiting for troops to board. Anyways i don't know as this is third hand news but if you heard reports of that elsewhere maybe it's true.

In the report two post above your own, the reporter mentions that two people have been killed, and the is before the footage of the soldiers coming onto the ship.

Why did the Israelis need to stop a ship with aid?

The blockade is illegal and the ships were in International waters, so what is the justification for having to ambush the ships and then open fire?

The ships were full of aid and aid workers, so why such use of lethal force?

dr.bollocko

KetchupKid wrote: »

You must understand the Israeli logic, Israelis are more valuable than anyone else. One dead Israeli is equal to about 100 of the opposition. So if one Israeli officer was injured, 18 dead is about right. Why is anyone so surprised?

I think it's more realistic to look it as a hail of bullets as a result of being attacked lasting a few seconds which resulted in many deaths than some sort of revenge massacre. That'd be my reading of it. I don't know yet where the fault or blame lies.

prinz

The Schalit family on Thursday asked for assistance from international left-wing activists due to arrive in the Gaza Strip later in the day.

If the left-wing activists pressure Hamas to allow international organizations to bring letters and food packages to Gilad Schalit, the kidnapped soldier's family has agreed to support the international expedition's attempt to dock, Army Radio reported Thursday.

Lawyer Nick Kaufman presented the offer to the organization "Free Gaza," one of the organizers of the flotilla headed for Gaza, which promptly refused the offer.

"We are disappointed that the organizers of the flotilla have refused to also provide basic humanitarian assistance to our son, who has been held in Gaza four years in contradiction of international law," said the Schalit family.

Good to see just how "humanitarian" they really are.

darkman2

Carrying aid to Gaza which is governed by terrorists. Why should they get aid till they put in moderates The Palestinians are not blameless here either.

Local-womanizer

darkman2 wrote: »

Carrying aid to Gaza which is governed by terrorists. Why should they get aid till they put in moderates The Palestinians are not blameless here either.

The aid is going directly to the people who need it.

This is not a case of people supporting Hamas or Israel,its about bringing help to those who are stuck in the middle of the mess created by the 2 governments.

EuskalHerria

prinz wrote: »

Good to see just how "humanitarian" they really are.

They accepted the offer to bring him letters and parcels. Also two of our own TD's volunteered to deliver them to an Irish UN representative but they were refused.

WIZE

prinz wrote: »

Good to see just how "humanitarian" they really are.

If your going to do that Quote the full story on how well prepared the Isreali army said they were :rolleyes:

The Schalit family on Thursday asked for assistance from international left-wing activists due to arrive in the Gaza Strip later in the day.

If the left-wing activists pressure Hamas to allow international organizations to bring letters and food packages to Gilad Schalit, the kidnapped soldier's family has agreed to support the international expedition's attempt to dock, Army Radio reported Thursday.

Lawyer Nick Kaufman presented the offer to the organization "Free Gaza," one of the organizers of the flotilla headed for Gaza, which promptly refused the offer.

"We are disappointed that the organizers of the flotilla have refused to also provide basic humanitarian assistance to our son, who has been held in Gaza four years in contradiction of international law," said the Schalit family.

The IDF announced Wednesday evening that it was planning to stop the international convoy of nine ships currently on its way to Gaza carrying hundreds of activists and thousands of tons of supplies.

“If they decide to continue sailing and do not listen to the instructions, then they will be stopped, brought to Israel and dealt with by the Interior Ministry, which will return them to the countries they came from,” an IDF statement said.

According to the statement, the IDF will unload the supplies and transfer the shipment to the Gaza Strip, after inspecting it for weaponry.

The Navy has held a number of drills in recent weeks to prepare for the arrival of the small fleet, which is expected to try breaking the Israel-imposed sea blockade on Gaza and dock at its newly expanded port.

The scenarios drilled included the commandeering of the ships, which could, military sources said Wednesday, include violent clashes – depending on the response by the passengers on the vessels.



“We will do everything to ensure that the operation runs smoothly, but are prepared for every possible scenario,” one defense official explained.

Meanwhile Wednesday, the IDF continued its media blitz against the flotilla and released data showing that all of the supplies the ships are carrying were already being transferred by Israel to Gaza via land crossings on a regular basis.

“This flotilla is a provocation that is not needed considering the humanitarian situation in Gaza, which is stable and good,” said Col. Moshe Levi, commander of the IDF’s Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration. Levi said that 100 trucks, loaded with supplies, enter Gaza on a daily basis, and that in the past two months over 1,200 tons of medical supplies were transferred to the

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176655

Wibbs

Biggins wrote: »

Couple more questions that maybe someone could answer:

* Did the invaders actually have on them identifying marks saying who they were clearly?
* If someone knew these 6 boats were on the way - could Israel not have got one at least some of its state boats, pulled along side and/or in the light of day radioed "prepare to be boarded?"
(surely they knew they were coming and had time to get some military boats to create a visible deterrent any way?)
* Why exactly the midnight assault - when the boats supposedly had been cleared by reliable countries customs of any thing of ill repute?

Very good questions Biggins. Boats and ships are stopped everyday on every sea in the world by coastguards and anti drug detachments. It's not uncommon. It seems Israel plays by its own rules. Big shock. They've been doing so since the 40's. If they have a blockade, then in daylight a navy frigate hoving into view requesting a search would have sufficed. But oh no. Lets storm it at night with troops. They play by their own rules and as the rest of the world with its collective guilt and lobbying by Israel lets them away with it time and time and time again. The UN is toothless in this.

EuskalHerria wrote: »

I'm sorry but if i was ordered to pull the trigger on unarmed aid workers aboard a ship to a region that badly needs the supplies, I would and could not pull the trigger.

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

The time of day would have no bearing on it, attacking a soldier will get you shot.

Like Danny Wooden Savannah said going at an armed soidier is not the brightest thing to do. Not when he's coming down at night into what he expects is a hostile environment. Not when he's likely to have been shot at himself more than once. I dont blame the guys on the ground. Same way I didnt with that incident in abbeylara where the guys fired rounds resulting in the death of John Carthy. That's their job. Shooting to wound only works in Hollywood. In both cases I lay the blame soley with those who sent them in.

dr.bollocko wrote: »

You have a situation where the IDF dropped on the ship and were met with force. Now there are at least 10 dead and more again injured. How quickly would you go from a scuffle where a soldier got stabbed to that number dead? Would it be seconds or minutes?

Pretty quickly where modern automatic weapons are involved I'd imagine. If they were set to full auto. Then again that raises a point. Would you drop onto a heaving ship at night with full auto selected? More chance of shooting your own guys if anything kicked off I would have thought? Better informed can help me out on that point. 16 dead is a helluva kill ratio if it did go off that quickly. Even if one guy lost the cool and started raking the group with fully automatic fire it seems high. You would think that shots being fired and people going down would tend to reduce those left to fear and lack of further threat.

prinz

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The aid is going directly to the people who need it..

Some of it is. Some of it is going to keep Hamas in power, and in wealth more than likely.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4273371._CH_.2400

EuskalHerria wrote: »

They accepted the offer to bring him letters and parcels. Also two of our own TD's volunteered to deliver them to an Irish UN representative but they were refused.

Evidence of this?

darkman2

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The aid is going directly to the people who need it.

This is not a case of people supporting Hamas or Israel,its about bringing help to those who are stuck in the middle of the mess created by the 2 governments.

The people voted for Hamas though. Probrably not the cleverest thing to do in the overall scheme of things considering the propaganda that gives Isreal.

twinQuins

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I would think so too tbh. That doesn't really give you a lot of time to co-ordinate a proper reaction. Bloke runs at you with a knife as others are attacking also. Seconds later, people dead.

Surely, however, as commandos they would have been trained to disarm or disable people without killing them. I would have thought so, especially if they're being used in circumstances like this.

It's hard to see once they land on the ship and get attacked how it could happen any other way. 19 dead now on Sky News.

Sadly, yes.

They are saying that the troops had paintball guns and were only to use live arms for self defence.

Which brings me back to my first point. Evidently, they assumed it was a situation where non-lethal means would be sufficient.
Now, a paintball to the arm is going to make someone drop what they're carrying (I'm sure paintballers can expand on how painful it is to be hit by one) and considering the crew weren't armed with small-arms then I'm sure such means would have been enough.

Personally, I don't buy the bit about paintball guns. There are far more effective non-lethal weapons they could have used, if they really wanted to simply incapacitate these people.

Local-womanizer

prinz wrote: »

Some of it is. Some of it is going to keep Hamas in power, and in wealth more than likely.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4273371._CH_.2400

Its better than none tbh.

EuskalHerria

Wibbs wrote: »

Like Makikomi said going at an armed soidier is not the brightest thing to do. Not when he's coming down at night into what he expects is a hostile environment. Not when he's likely to have been shot at himself more than once. I dont blame the guys on the ground. Same way I didnt with that incident in abbeylara where the guys fired rounds resulting in the death of John Carthy. That's their job. Shooting to wound only works in Hollywood. In both cases I lay the blame soley with those who sent them in.

I'll simply reply with, the Israeli army should not have been there, end of story.

cherryghost

Ok, so the move was illegal, and there's widespread condemnation of the act. What's the course of action? I assume it's more than just a 'thorough investigation'?

Local-womanizer

darkman2 wrote: »

The people voted for Hamas though. Probrably not the cleverest thing to do in the overall scheme of things considering the propaganda that gives Isreal.

Do you blame them though? They voted for someone who said they would fight against the oppressor that is Israel,and in turn secure their future and home. After endless years of war and fighting they got desperate.

And anyway,its never made a blind bit of difference who was in power to Israel in fairness....

bambooze

they have another name for that ..... a massacre.

Otherwise known as a situation engineered by pro-pali activists in cahoots with hamas and backed by the islamist and increasingly hostile turkish goverment, specifically to force Israel's hand and create more hate and condemnation toward Israel.

Truckloads of aid enters gaza every day from israel and egypt.

Israel even offered to let this rabble land in israel and truck the aid to gaza after inspection and to fly the activists home or arrest them if they refused.

Israel gave many warnings, clearly, publicly and well in advance but all were ignored.

Israel raised the human rights of gilad shalit with this so called human rights organisation heading for gaza and they were not the least bit interested. Human rights apparently only applies when it's not for an israeli.

This whole debacle had f*ck all to do with bringing aid to gaza - there are legal, safe, accepted, agreed upon ways to do that as used by the UN and countless other legitimate organisations every day.

The video evidence of these "peace activist" hoodlums with their boatloads of useful idiots is trickling out now and as said previously - its damning stuff.

But hey, why let truth and sanity get in the way of a good israel bashing session? :rolleyes:

EuskalHerria

prinz wrote: »

Evidence of this?

Despite calls from the UN, Israel continues its plot to intercept the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza.

Israel's foreign ministry said it had given warnings to the ambassadors of Ireland, Cyprus, Greece, Sweden and Turkey - from where the ships set sail - that it had "issued warrants that prohibit the entrance of the vessels to Gaza".

Detention camp for Flotilla participants in Ashdod

This statement comes in the midst of Israeli preparations for a massive outdoor detention centre in the Israeli port of Ashdod and ongoing diplomatic attempts by the Israeli Foreign Ministry to prevent the Freedom Flotilla from reaching Gaza. Israel has vowed to divert the ships to Ashdod, by force if necessary, where all Israeli participants will be arrested, Palestinians will be questioned by Israeli secret police and internationals will be deported or held in a detention centre if they refuse deportation.

John Ging, Head of United Nation's Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in the Gaza Strip since 2006 has asked the international community to "bring us the supplies we need to rebuild schools and run them, bring us the equipment we need to hospitals and health centers. Everybody knows how desperate the situation is in the Gaza Strip after almost three years of blockade. We need action now."

However the Director General of Israel's Foreign Ministry, Yossi Gal, said that the flotilla was "an absolute provocation" and a "cheap political stunt". Israel has entered into a full scale PR battle against the Freedom Flotilla by attempting to propagate the myth that there is no aid crisis in Gaza, despite Israel's illegal three-year-old blockade of the tiny coastal strip.

Dr. Fintan Lane, one of the 11 Irish activists on board the flotilla, said that they were determined to break Israel's blockade and will not be intimidated: "The people of Gaza have a right to access to the outside world and the right to determine their own future. If Israel attempts to stop the flotilla, they will once again show their true colours to the international community."

The Irish members of a Parliamentary delegation travelling to Gaza on the flotilla have this morning written to the father of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier in captivity in Gaza, in response to a letter received by the Free Gaza movement in which Shalit's parents asked that letters and parcels from Shalit’s family be given to their son.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh TD, Chris Andrews TD and Senator Mark Daly have agreed to personally hand the letters and parcels to the Red Cross in Gaza or to their fellow Irishman John Ging, head of UNRWA in Gaza. They have also agreed to reiterate their call for the release of Gilad Shalit when they reach Gaza.
Related Link: http://www.ipsc.ie

doncarlos

FFS have they no shame or compassion???

Israeli deputy foreign minister Danny Ayalan tells Sky News the deaths were "regrettable" but that "the apology should be from the terror organistations".

Source; http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Palestinian-Aid-Convoy-Two-Killed-As-Israeli-Navy-Clashes-With-Boats-Sailing-To-Gaza-Strip/Article/201005415640829?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15640829_Palestinian_Aid_Convoy%3A_Two_Killed_As_Israeli_Navy_Clashes_With_Boats_Sailing_To_Gaza_Strip

darkman2

Interesting tags on this thread;)

skelliser

Can we just make one thing clear!!

Hamas were democratically elected

The west and israel chose not to accept this.