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Aid Floatillas Attacked

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    #452
    happymondays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 122 ✭✭happymondays


    bambooze wrote: »
    Otherwise known as a situation engineered by pro-pali activists in cahoots with hamas and backed by the islamist and increasingly hostile turkish goverment, specifically to force Israel's hand and create more hate and condemnation toward Israel.

    Truckloads of aid enters gaza every day from israel and egypt.

    Israel even offered to let this rabble land in israel and truck the aid to gaza after inspection and to fly the activists home or arrest them if they refused.

    Israel gave many warnings, clearly, publicly and well in advance but all were ignored.

    Israel raised the human rights of gilad shalit with this so called human rights organisation heading for gaza and they were not the least bit interested. Human rights apparently only applies when it's not for an israeli.

    This whole debacle had f*ck all to do with bringing aid to gaza - there are legal, safe, accepted, agreed upon ways to do that as used by the UN and countless other legitimate organisations every day.

    The video evidence of these "peace activist" hoodlums with their boatloads of useful idiots is trickling out now and as said previously - its damning stuff.

    But hey, why let truth and sanity get in the way of a good israel bashing session? :rolleyes:



    In which case all israel had to do was disable the ships, tow them to the nearest port and deport everyone. problem solved and no news headlines.

    Instead they send half the navy, helicopters and highlty trained armed elite comandos and shoot dead 19 people/ bear in mind one already killed before they even boarded the ship. So yes they do deserve a good bashing.


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    #453
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    bambooze wrote: »
    Otherwise known as a situation engineered by pro-pali activists in cahoots with hamas and backed by the islamist and increasingly hostile turkish goverment, specifically to force Israel's hand and create more hate and condemnation toward Israel.

    Truckloads of aid enters gaza every day from israel and egypt.

    Israel even offered to let this rabble land in israel and truck the aid to gaza after inspection and to fly the activists home or arrest them if they refused.

    Israel gave many warnings, clearly, publicly and well in advance but all were ignored.

    Israel raised the human rights of gilad shalit with this so called human rights organisation heading for gaza and they were not the least bit interested. Human rights apparently only applies when it's not for an israeli.

    This whole debacle had f*ck all to do with bringing aid to gaza - there are legal, safe, accepted, agreed upon ways to do that as used by the UN and countless other legitimate organisations every day.

    The video evidence of these "peace activist" hoodlums with their boatloads of useful idiots is trickling out now and as said previously - its damning stuff.

    But hey, why let truth and sanity get in the way of a good israel bashing session? :rolleyes:

    You do realise that there is at least 200 materials that israel prohibates from entering Gaza. Pencils and chocolate being just two!

    The truth is only a fraction of the aid thats needed is let in.

    Gaza is a prison or more aptly, a concentration camp. You are not allowed leave or enter without Israeli permission.

    John Ging, an irish man, Head of the UN Mission in Gaza has consistently said that whats going on in Gaza is a Humanitarian disaster. facts which you chose to ignore in your apologist rant.


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    #454
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    We all know about Islamic extremism and it's associated terrorism. But it's time the international community and especially the United States took a stand against Zionist terrorism. I'm fcuking sick to death of Zionist policies being waged against innocent civilians, whether it be on an aid boat in international waters, or the Criminal use of White Phosphorous shells during their 'war' on Gaza Civilians. Only yesterday they stuck their fingers up at the the international community and the planned conference for a nuclear weapons free Middle East. How much longer can this 'rogue' nation be allowed to fly in the face of international law.


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    #455
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Morkarleth wrote: »
    Surely, however, as commandos they would have been trained to disarm or disable people without killing them. I would have thought so, especially if they're being used in circumstances like this.
    Only in the movies. Galil assault rifles dont have a stun setting. The only way you can disable a large group of people is with overwhelming odds. Riot police with tear gas could have or the use of tazers.
    Personally, I don't buy the bit about paintball guns. There are far more effective non-lethal weapons they could have used, if they really wanted to simply incapacitate these people.
    Their superiors want to send a message. Simple as that. They could have stopped this far more easily if they'd wanted to. A couple of navy frigates could have stopped glorified tramp steamers. Hell our navy which consists of a few rowboats could have stopped them. Indeed even with our meagre naval resources we do stop ships on a regular basis. The bloody swiss navy could have stopped them. There are only a couple of conclusions I can come too. One, they are so used to being heavy handed and getting away with it they just went in all guns blazing and two, they wanted to send a well planned message playing by their rules. The only other conclusion is that theyre a bunch of morons and they're most certainly not that.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #456
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    medicman2009 wrote: »
    We all know about Islamic extremism and it's associated terrorism. But it's time the international community and especially the United States took a stand against Zionist terrorism. I'm fcuking sick to death of Zionist policies being waged against innocent civilians, whether it be on an aid boat in international waters, or the Criminal use of White Phosphorous shells during their 'war' on Gaza Civilians. Only yesterday they stuck their fingers up at the the international community and the planned conference for a nuclear weapons free Middle East. How much longer can this 'rogue' nation be allowed to fly in the face of international law.
    Its a seige mentality on both sides. For the guts of 60 years, Israel has been in a state of war and its neighbours have been in a state of war with them. The Arab nations got fckued over badly by the world powers and had been for decades. The millions of Jews fleeing europe needed somewhere to call home. Do not get me wrong I would support a state of Israel. More to the point I would support a democratic Palestine/Israel where both lived together. That didnt happen though. The second Israel became a state and the British left the arab nations tried to crush it. They were left to fend for themselves at first. The arab nations could have said OK lets give this a chance, but their own issues stopped that. Siege mentality took over and over the years Israel has stolen more and more land. I cant see this stopping any time soon sad to say.

    TBH if I ever found a time machine I'd go back in time, find Abraham and shoot him dead on the spot before he got the chance to start his nonsense. Nothing but misery has sprung from those three desert religions he was the founder of.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #457
    henryporter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    skelliser wrote: »
    Can we just make one thing clear!!

    Hamas were democratically elected

    The west and israel chose not to accept this.

    Similar to the behavior against Chavez in Venezuela, and for that matter most newly formed states; our own included - Fighting to take control of your own country being seen as an act of terrorism is just one of the most stupid facets of humanity.


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    #458
    bambooze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭bambooze


    happymondays wrote: »
    In which case all israel had to do was disable the ships, tow them to the nearest port and deport everyone. problem solved and no news headlines.

    Well I don't know why chose those tactics, in retrospect its easy to say they should have done it differently.. but perhaps they expected little resistance on board from the "innocent civilians" and planned to just take control of the vessel to sail it safely into port. Disabling a ship with hundreds of civilians on board is probably also fraught with risk - better a ship that still maintains full capability to navigate.

    The reality appears to be that they met with extremely hostile and violent opposition and it went downhill from there.
    Instead they send half the navy, helicopters and highlty trained armed elite comandos and shoot dead 19 people/ bear in mind one already killed before they even boarded the ship. So yes they do deserve a good bashing.
    Got a (non-biased) source for that "one already killed before they even boarded the ship" ? First I've heard of that.. I would imagine all sorts of wild accusations will be flowing for a while now until the truth finally comes out. For example earlier it was all over Turkish TV that Sheikh Raed Salah had been killed by the israeli commandos.. turned out he was fine.


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    #459
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    Yes, we should definitely count our blessings that the IDF soldiers decided against killing everyone on board a ship with aid. A clear sign of dignity and good morality to leave surviving aid workers.

    people have said they went in deliberately to kill

    this is clearly not the case.


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    #460
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    henryporter wrote: »
    Similar to the behavior against Chavez in Venezuela, and for that matter most newly formed states; our own included - Fighting to take control of your own country being seen as an act of terrorism is just one of the most stupid facets of humanity.

    hamas's mission isnt to control its own country its to kill all infidels

    also what has rockets into israel got to do with an internal struggle for power?


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    #461
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Morkarleth wrote: »
    Surely, however, as commandos they would have been trained to disarm or disable people without killing them. I would have thought so, especially if they're being used in circumstances like this.
    No commandos are trained to kill, they shoot for central mass without thinking, The only soldiers that shoot to maim are snipers and that's only to kill the soldiers that come to rescue the maimed soldier.

    You don't send military against civilians because the military are trained killers.


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    #462
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    people have said they went in deliberately to kill

    this is clearly not the case.
    It is not clear. Whether there was foresight or not, the result is the same. Dead Human rights activists.


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    #463
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    bambooze wrote: »
    Well I don't know why chose those tactics, in retrospect its easy to say they should have done it differently.. but perhaps they expected little resistance on board from the "innocent civilians" and planned to just take control of the vessel to sail it safely into port. Disabling a ship with hundreds of civilians on board is probably also fraught with risk - better a ship that still maintains full capability to navigate.
    That's utter crap with respect. Ships are stopped and searched and if required commandeered nearly every single day by naval forces around the world.
    The reality appears to be that they met with extremely hostile and violent opposition and it went downhill from there.
    And they expected what exactly? Tea and scones? TBH I pity the Israelie soldiers tasked with this. They knew damn well it would likely go badly. If their superiors expected resistance then it would be logical to direct this a different way. Provoking a response? eh yea, real smart.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #464
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    i am reading on other forums that apparently the israelis went in initially with anti riot gear and it was only when (As you can see in the video from the idf) a soldier was thrown from one deck 30ft down to another and when another soldier was stabbed that they went in with heavier arms

    i am trying to find references for this


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    #465
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    people have said they went in deliberately to kill

    this is clearly not the case.
    No but sending in armed military forces into a delicate situation is by definition going to make deaths far more likely. For the soldiers too BTW
    PeakOutput wrote: »
    hamas's mission isnt to control its own country its to kill all infidels
    Dont get me started on those numptys.

    My take on this is both sides are as bad as each other and people in the west depending on their own take, favour one side or the other. Usually wrongly on both sides. All the while everyday folks in Isreal on both sides suffer from living in a war zone. Its some fcuked up shíte all around.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #466
    henryporter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    hamas's mission isnt to control its own country its to kill all infidels

    also what has rockets into israel got to do with an internal struggle for power?

    Well they're hardly capable of mounting a full scale offensive on one of the most well armed, tactically advanced armies in the world, who happen to occupy more and more of their peoples lands in contravention of all previous agreements. I do agree with you however that their mission statement doesn't exactly help their standing as world leaders.


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    #467
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Wibbs wrote: »
    No but sending in armed military forces into a delicate situation is by definition going to make deaths far more likely. For the soldiers too BTW

    Dont get me started on those numptys.

    My take on this is both sides are as bad as each other and people in the west depending on their own take, favour one side or the other. Usually wrongly on both sides. All the while everyday folks in Isreal on both sides suffer from living in a war zone. Its some fcuked up shíte all around.

    absolutely agree

    but provoking the israelis by breaking the laws they set up to, as they see it, protect their country is not going to improve the situation for anyone


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    #468
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64U27020100531
    Israel said commandos opened fire in self-defense and 10 activists were killed and seven troops wounded. With Israel jamming signals and censoring media, there was little independent reporting of the events at sea.

    An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.

    "They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

    One of the commandos told reporters he descended by rope from a helicopter onto one of the six ships in the convoy and was immediately attacked by a group of people waiting for them.

    "They beat us with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us."

    A Reuters cameraman on the Israeli navy ship Kidon close to the six-vessel aid convoy said commanders monitoring the operation were surprised by the strong resistance put up by the pro-Palestinian activists.

    One of the commandos said some of the soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and a number were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck and then leapt into the sea to save themselves.

    "They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."

    This somewhat changes my thinking that it was all over in seconds.


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    #469
    bambooze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭bambooze


    skelliser wrote: »
    You do realise that there is at least 200 materials that israel prohibates from entering Gaza. Pencils and chocolate being just two!

    Oh the horror! No chocolates! No Pencils! Well as that old queen once said - let them use pens. (and eat halva)

    Gaza is a prison or more aptly, a concentration camp. You are not allowed leave or enter without Israeli permission.
    As long as Hamas rules Gaza and refuses to make peace, refuses to return the israeli soldier or grant him any human rights, refuses to stop using gaza as a rocket launchpad.. the blockade will continue. Lets not forget that gaza is also bordered by egypt and they seem to have no problems restricting access too.
    John Ging, an irish man, Head of the UN Mission in Gaza has consistently said that whats going on in Gaza is a Humanitarian disaster. facts which you chose to ignore in your apologist rant.
    The facts that you choose to ignore are that Hamas rules Gaza and is entirely responsible for the well being of their people (those they didnt kill yet anyway). Billions in aid has been poured into that place, enough money to bail out every bank in ireland many times over, much of it ending up paying for weapons or lining the pockets of the fatcats or generally going down the drain.

    When Israel withdrew from Gaza years ago they had every opportunity to build something positive.. but several thousand rocket attacks and general mayhem later, here we are. Quelle surprise.


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    #470
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Wibbs wrote: »
    That's utter crap with respect. Ships are stopped and searched and if required commandeered nearly every single day by naval forces around the world.

    And they expected what exactly? Tea and scones? TBH I pity the Israelie soldiers tasked with this. They knew damn well it would likely go badly. If their superiors expected resistance then it would be logical to direct this a different way. Provoking a response? eh yea, real smart.

    Amen to that Wibbs, could these 'special' forces not have used a couple of flash bangs or stun grenades to subdue the civilians on board the ship? A few of these dropped on deck, would have facilitated a quick and uncontested rappel on to the ship deck. People could then have been easily controlled, without the need for fatalities. Ah, but the Gung-ho macho Israeli attitude prefers blood, heck, they have no one to answer to after all I suppose.


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    #471
    Andy-Pandy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭Andy-Pandy


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    hamas's mission isnt to control its own country its to kill all infidels

    Never been a fan of Hamas, but there no crazy riligious nut jobs. There fighting to free there own people. There nothing like the Taliban or Al Quida in that sence. They have always seemed to be quite tollerant of people on religious grounds, and ya cant really blame them for not liking Jews.


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    #472
    El Horseboxo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭El Horseboxo


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    i am reading on other forums that apparently the israelis went in initially with anti riot gear and it was only when (As you can see in the video from the idf) a soldier was thrown from one deck 30ft down to another and when another soldier was stabbed that they went in with heavier arms

    i am trying to find references for this

    But there are also videos that show activists down and injured and you can hear shots. This is prior to the Israeli footage. The footage the Israelis are showing is clearly them coming down into an already unstable situation. Why was it unstable and why aren't they showing the footage from the beginning? It's easy to chop a video and release just from the point where soldiers were attacked. What happened beforehand to provoke the attack? In order for the activists to put themselves in harms way it must have been serious enough. These people would have been boarded plenty of times and are used to confrontation. I have possibly been among some of them before and i still can't imagine Israeli soldiers coming onto the ship and instantly being attacked. If you knew any of these people you would have the same doubts as me. They are just average people. Not scum bags out for a fight. But if i just had a mate shot because he was trying to block an entrance to something or pushing back i would be pissed and if there was a iron bar beside me i'd be picking it up and laying into the first fúcker who looked like the person who shot him.


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    #473
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    henryporter wrote: »
    Well they're hardly capable of mounting a full scale offensive on one of the most well armed, tactically advanced armies in the world

    well as someone who dosnt believe in proportionate response that really dosnt matter to me its their intention and what they preach that i feel is most important not how much resources they have to act on it or not

    also they were elected in gaza not the west bank were there are palestinians trying to start dialogue and have peacefull negotiations which hamas arent helping and also all the news abotu attacks and atrocities seem to be coming from gaza and not the west bank, maybe because the west bank has moderates in control and arent lobbing missiles at the israels at every opportunity?

    just a thought


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    #474
    nice1franko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭nice1franko


    It's gas how the Israelis can do no wrong in the views of so many on this forum.

    There's widespread international condemnation and the boardsie pipes up "sure they were only protecting themselves".

    The UK and Australia expelled Israeli diplomats just weeks ago for counterfeiting passports to be used in a murder ffs. They used Irish ones too - interesting side story here.

    I don't understand it...


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    #475
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    hamas's mission isnt to control its own country its to kill all infidels

    also what has rockets into israel got to do with an internal struggle for power?

    Might have something to do with Israels constant land theft in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. You can't expect one side to give up aggression, while the other one is happily engaged in it.


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    #476
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people on this thread watch too many films and picture equate commandos to ninja's. :P

    Some people expected these militants to use mind bullets? Pew pew...

    Some of the expectations are kinda laughable.


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    #477
    MayoForSam
    Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭MayoForSam


    "They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

    Don't know about that, from some of the photos it can be plainly seen the the Israeli commandos are armed with SMG's and assault weapons, not just pistols.


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    #478
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    bambooze wrote: »
    Oh the horror! No chocolates! No Pencils! Well as that old queen once said - let them use pens. (and eat halva)

    Which ignores that fact that there is no real reason to ban such items, other than being petty.
    bambooze wrote: »
    As long as Hamas rules Gaza and refuses to make peace, refuses to return the israeli soldier or grant him any human rights, refuses to stop using gaza as a rocket launchpad.. the blockade will continue. Lets not forget that gaza is also bordered by egypt and they seem to have no problems restricting access too.

    Egypt isn't controlling Gaza's air space or sea access, Israel is, and hence why they are responsible for the blocakde.

    Also, Israel is still stealing land, and still engaged in violence to maintain what they have stolen and steal more, and they have shown again and again they are not interested in peace.
    bambooze wrote: »
    The facts that you choose to ignore are that Hamas rules Gaza and is entirely responsible for the well being of their people (those they didnt kill yet anyway). Billions in aid has been poured into that place, enough money to bail out every bank in ireland many times over, much of it ending up paying for weapons or lining the pockets of the fatcats or generally going down the drain.

    The UN has stated time and again Israel does not allow in enough aid, and the links have already been provided, and you have chosen to ignore these facts.
    bambooze wrote: »
    When Israel withdrew from Gaza years ago they had every opportunity to build something positive.. but several thousand rocket attacks and general mayhem later, here we are. Quelle surprise.

    Israel has not withdrawn from Gaza, as evidence by the blockade. You can't have you cake and eat it too.


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    #479
    happymondays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 122 ✭✭happymondays


    bambooze wrote: »
    Well I don't know why chose those tactics, in retrospect its easy to say they should have done it differently.. but perhaps they expected little resistance on board from the "innocent civilians" and planned to just take control of the vessel to sail it safely into port. Disabling a ship with hundreds of civilians on board is probably also fraught with risk - better a ship that still maintains full capability to navigate.


    sending in a couple of naval ship, armed troops, helicopters and
    armed comandos would indicate to me that they were expecting resistance. In fact a few pages back on this thread it was discussed
    as a report from the Jerusalem Post, see below



    “If they decide to continue sailing and do not listen to the instructions, then they will be stopped, brought to Israel and dealt with by the Interior Ministry, which will return them to the countries they came from,” an IDF statement said.

    According to the statement, the IDF will unload the supplies and transfer the shipment to the Gaza Strip, after inspecting it for weaponry.

    The Navy has held a number of drills in recent weeks to prepare for the arrival of the small fleet, which is expected to try breaking the Israel-imposed sea blockade on Gaza and dock at its newly expanded port.

    The scenarios drilled included the commandeering of the ships, which could, military sources said Wednesday, include violent clashes – depending on the response by the passengers on the vessels"


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    #480
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    El Horseboxo wrote: »
    But there are also videos that show activists down and injured and you can hear shots. This is prior to the Israeli footage. The footage the Israelis are showing is clearly them coming down into an already unstable situation. Why was it unstable and why aren't they showing the footage from the beginning? It's easy to chop a video and release just from the point where soldiers were attacked. What happened beforehand to provoke the attack? In order for the activists to put themselves in harms way it must have been serious enough. These people would have been boarded plenty of times and are used to confrontation. I have possibly been among some of them before and i still can't imagine Israeli soldiers coming onto the ship and instantly being attacked. If you knew any of these people you would have the same doubts as me. They are just average people. Not scum bags out for a fight.


    iv seen thw videos from both sides they have all been edited

    none of the videos iv seen show evidence of shooting before boarding as some claim

    none of the videos completely exonerate the israelis as they claim but imo all the videos show that both parties are to blame for the outcome
    But if i just had a mate shot because he was trying to block an entrance to something or pushing back i would be pissed and if there was a iron bar beside me i'd be picking it up and laying into the first fúcker who looked like the person who shot him.

    well then i wouldnt have much sympathy for you being shot either, i dont believe anyone was shot because they were blocking the soldiers way or 'pushing back' the videos clearly show they were being overtly aggresive and indeed one video shows a soldier with an automatic weapon showing alot of restraint while he is being beaten by a 'peacefull human rights activist'. thats not to say all the soldiers showed that much restraint or that all the activists were attacking like that, its just shows that its not as black and white as everyone here is making it out to be


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    #481
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    wes wrote: »
    Might have something to do with Israels constant land theft in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. You can't expect one side to give up aggression, while the other one is happily engaged in it.

    again i ask the question

    why isnt the same thing that is happenin to gaza happening to the west bank?

    i believe the answer is because gaza is controlled by extremists who wont talk and the west bank isnt


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