Aid Floatillas Attacked

iguana

Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people on this thread watch too many films and picture equate commandos to ninja's. :P

Some people expected these militants to use mind bullets? Pew pew...

Some of the expectations are kinda laughable.

Nobody said anything about "mind bullets" apart from idiotic attempt to be patronising by someone defending the soldiers. Sort of like your comment.

citizen_p

they are surrouned by people who dont recognise them as a country, they have to send a message really, the aid ships was that. they are attacked by terrorist groups constantly, and use similar tactics against them (munich olympic attacks and aftermath), its a dirty war, we arent involved, so dont try play armchair generals etc... sign a petition, have a march etc.... but none (most) would not have a complete understanding either way. and i think this conflict will be a bit more complex than NI.

btw im not pro or anti isreal etc... just my view, blah blah blah btw how are they in the eurovision?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSFwyWyVo74
parts show the civilans with sticks etc... and throwing stuff

prinz

medicman2009 wrote: »

Amen to that Wibbs, could these 'special' forces not have used a couple of flash bangs or stun grenades to subdue the civilians on board the ship? A few of these dropped on deck, would have facilitated a quick and uncontested rappel on to the ship deck. People could then have been easily controlled, without the need for fatalities. Ah, but the Gung-ho macho Israeli attitude prefers blood, heck, they have no one to answer to after all I suppose.

This wasn't some small boat, this was a ship with many people on board spread through different levels and decks etc. A couple of flash bangs was not going tp subdue very many in fairness.

Kivaro

dr.bollocko wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64U27020100531



This somewhat changes my thinking that it was all over in seconds.

And the high probability that there were snipers in the helicopters (to provide cover) would lead me to think that it lasted longer than a few seconds.

To drive this incident home, you can use the analogy of Bloody Sunday in Derry, where innocent civilians in a peaceful demonstration were murdered by soldiers. 5 of those injured were shot in the back. At least I see the correlation anyway.

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

again i ask the question

why isnt the same thing that is happenin to gaza happening to the west bank?

i believe the answer is because gaza is controlled by extremists who wont talk and the west bank isnt

No, I believe its due to Israel wanting rid of Hamas, who were democratically elected, and they didn't like the results and hence the current situation. Basically, Fatah is corrupt and could be bought, and this was not the case with Hamas, and hence the illegal siege, by Israel.

Now, the question needs to be asked, why is Israel still stealing land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and why are there still so many restrictions on Palestinians, even though Fatah have worked with Israel to stop attacks etc? Seems to me Israel wants land, and will keep on engaging in aggression as they see fit.

PeakOutput

Kivaro wrote: »

And the high probability that there were snipers in the helicopters (to provide cover) would lead me to think that it lasted longer than a few seconds.

To drive this incident home, you can use the analogy of Bloody Sunday in Derry, where innocent civilians in a peaceful demonstration were murdered by soldiers. 5 of those injured were shot in the back. At least I see the correlation anyway.

there was no video of civilians attacking soldiers during bloody sunday and there was no alligations of soldiers being surrounded and beaten

the difference is MASSIVE

iguana

PeakOutput wrote: »

iv seen thw videos from both sides they have all been edited

none of the videos iv seen show evidence of shooting before boarding as some claim

Very little information is coming out from the flotilla as the Israelis disabled their satellites, an interesting move from people who have nothing to hide. The video which has come out shows a severely injured man in an area with no fighting. A little while later you can hear the crew making a shipwide announcement asking people to go back to their cabins as the soldiers are firing live rounds.

PeakOutput

wes wrote: »

No, I believe its due to Israel wanting rid of Hamas, who were democratically elected,

thats fine with me

and why are there still so many restrictions on Palestinians, even though Fatah have worked with Israel to stop attacks etc?

the attacks havnt stopped why would the restrictions stop?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

iguana wrote: »

Nobody said anything about "mind bullets" apart from idiotic attempt to be patronising by someone defending the soldiers. Sort of like your comment.

It's time you learnt the difference between a question and a statement

ch750536

http://www.camera.org/ - read that if you want a giggle. All press in the US goes through this organisation first.

I know this is going to get some hatred, so be it. Israel is without doubt the closest thing to the nazi's right now. Again the rest of the world is doing nothing.

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

thats fine with me

Ok.

PeakOutput wrote: »

t
the attacks havnt stopped why would the restrictions stop?

The land theft hasn't stopped either, so why should attacks stop? Again, Fatah has worked with Israel to stop attackes, and yet Israel continues there violence, and constant land theft agains them. You can't expect one side to stop there violence, while the other get to continue it. When Israel stops there crap, I will have some sympathy for them.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

Which ignores that fact that there is no real reason to ban such items, other than being petty.

I have no idea why certain things ended up on the blacklist but anyway.. make peace with israel, have your chocolate back. Its not that complicated, nor will anyone die from lack of chocolate and their teeth are probably the better for it.

Egypt isn't controlling Gaza's air space or sea access, Israel is, and hence why they are responsible for the blocakde.

So whats stopping gazans from freely entering and exiting gaza overland via egypt? Is gaza not a prison after all?

Ironically almost every week an african refugee, often from darfur, many times even muslim, is shot dead by egyptians (never by israel) while trying to escape TO israel.. does it ever make the news? Rarely. After all who cares about a few dead africans? :rolleyes:

Israel has not withdrawn from Gaza, as evidence by the blockade. You can't have you cake and eat it too.

Israel has withdrawn from gaza, only one israeli sits within the borders of gaza - gilad shalit, held for years against all international conventions on human rights and the treatment of prisoners.

Israel controls what goes in to gaza as long as a terrorist entity hell bent on its destruction remains in power. It must ensure weapons or anything that could be used against israel never gets to the hands of hamas.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

I have no idea why certain things ended up on the blacklist but anyway.. make peace with israel, have your chocolate back. Its not that complicated, nor will anyone die from lack of chocolate and their teeth are probably the better for it.

No, Israel is engaged in a childish and petty siege. Israel btw wants land and not peace. When, they stop stealing it, I will believe they want peace.

bambooze wrote: »

So whats stopping gazans from freely entering and exiting gaza overland via egypt? Is gaza not a prison after all?

The billions of dollars of US aid to Egypts stops the murderous dictator there from opening the borders.

bambooze wrote: »

Ironically almost every week an african refugee, often from darfur, many times even muslim, is shot dead by egyptians (never by israel) while trying to escape TO israel.. does it ever make the news? Rarely. After all who cares about a few dead africans? :rolleyes:

Israel has pressured Egypt to stop refugees from entering there land, and it is irrelevant to the current topic as well. So nice try at whatboutery.

bambooze wrote: »

Israel has withdrawn from gaza, only one israeli sits within the borders of gaza - gilad shalit, held for years against all international conventions on human rights and the treatment of prisoners.

Sorry, Israel blocakade shows clearly that they have not left, and Israel is holding 1000's of Palestinians without charge. So, when Israel stops holdings 1000s of Palestinians, I might care about Shalit. Again, btw more whatboutery.

bambooze wrote: »

Israel controls what goes in to gaza as long as a terrorist entity hell bent on its destruction remains in power. It must ensure weapons or anything that could be used against israel never gets to the hands of hamas.

Isreal is a terrorist entity hell bent on re-creating some biblical fantasy, by ehtnically cleansing the indigenous populace. Its uses advanced weapons to murder innocents and steal land to achieve the insane greater Israel project.

You see 2 can play at that game.

Now, for there to be peace, Hamas and other Palestinian groups need to stop violence, and Israel needs to stop stealing land, attacking Palestinians, end there siege, and remove there absurd restrictions. 2 sides need to stop, not just the Palestinians, when the Israeli's show some willingness to do so, I will believe they want peace.

strobe

PeakOutput wrote: »

there was no video of civilians attacking soldiers during bloody sunday and there was no alligations of soldiers being surrounded and beaten

the difference is MASSIVE

You can't really have just posted that. Are you really that selective in what you chose to remember? There were plenty of videos of civilians attacking soldiers on Bloody Sunday. According to the soldiers civilians also opened fire on them. The difference was not MASSIVE. Bizare......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY0sgIbSBwA

PeakOutput

wes wrote: »

Ok.



The land theft hasn't stopped either, so why should attacks stop? Again, Fatah has worked with Israel to stop attackes, and yet Israel continues there violence, and constant land theft agains them. You can't expect one side to stop there violence, while the other get to continue it. When Israel stops there crap, I will have some sympathy for them.

why should they be the first ones to stop?

as you say you cant expect one to stop when the other hasnt

UltimateMale

One of the saddest aspects of this for me is that it takes the killing of up to 19 non Palestinians to ignite such international concern and condemnation. Now if it had been 19 Palestinian women and children hiding in a shelter in Gaza gunned down by the brave boys of the IDF, their wouldn't be nearly the same level of condemnation.

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

why should they be the first ones to stop?

as you say you cant expect one to stop when the other hasnt

Why should the Palestinians stop, when even during peace negotiations Israel still steals land, like during Oslo? The Palestinian did stop there crap during Oslo, and Israel still stole land, so I do expect Israel to stop stealing land, and to stop trying achieve there absurd greater Israel, and I expect the Palestinians to stop violence as well. Both sides need to stop, not just one, and that is what I have constantly said, but which you choose to ignore.

Also, they can both stop at the same time. Pick a time, and both stop there violence at the same time.

Again, when Israel stops stealing land, I will believe they are serious about peace.

Kivaro

PeakOutput wrote: »

there was no video of civilians attacking soldiers during bloody sunday and there was no alligations of soldiers being surrounded and beaten

the difference is MASSIVE

Do you (and the other massacre supporters) not see the ludicrous nature of that defense:

"Your Honour, I know that we repelled down from heavily armed helicopters onto a civilian ship with unarmed civilians (verified by Turkish customs) in the dead of night, but we were surrounded and beaten. That is the reason we used overwhelming power, and that is the reason we shot unarmed civilians. Oh by the way, we heard what sounded like shots from below deck, so that gave us the justification to start shooting."

For Heavens sake, once you step one foot on that ship, you are by definition 'surrounded'.

And I most certainly see the comparison of murdering innocent civilians on a protest march in Derry, with massacring innocent civilians on a protest flotilla in international waters.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

Israel is engaged in a childish and petty siege.

There's nothing petty about it - israel is deadly serious about protecting its citizens.

Israel stops holdings 1000s of Palestinians

What you mean all those prisoners caught red-handed that get regular red cross visits, family visits, all the relative "luxuries" of prison and often come out wielding open uni degrees and the like?

Ye I see how thats the same as holding one israeli guy alone in some unknown place, never a single red cross visit, never a family visit, never any communication with the outside world (besides one video a year or two ago), no end in sight for his imprisonment, under constant fear of execution..

Isreal is a terrorist entity hell bent on re-creating some biblical fantasy, by ehtnically cleansing the indigenous populace. Its uses advanced weapons to murder innocents and steal land to achieve the insane greater Israel project.

Isreal Ireland is was a terrorist entity hell bent on re-creating some biblical republican fantasy, by ethnically cleansing the indigenous squatter populace..

Israel is the only country in the world for jews.. like ireland is for the irish - would you think it fine and dandy if the brits still ruled all of ireland? Are you just happy to ignore the brutal warfare that gave rise to what Ireland is today?

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

the attacks havnt stopped why would the restrictions stop?

There hasn't been an attack in or from the West Bank in years.
Secondly, all settlement building is illegal, regardless of Palestinian activity or lack thereof.

Please at least check your facts before posting.

bambooze

a civilian ship with unarmed civilians (verified by Turkish customs)

riiggght.. verified by an islamic country, openly hostile to israel and cozying up with iran & syria - sure I'd trust them! :rolleyes:

PeakOutput

Kivaro wrote: »

Do you (and the other massacre supporters) not see the ludicrous nature of that defense:

"Your Honour, I know that we repelled down from heavily armed helicopters onto a civilian ship with unarmed civilians (verified by Turkish customs) in the dead of night, but we were surrounded and beaten. That is the reason we used overwhelming power, and that is the reason we shot unarmed civilians. Oh by the way, we heard what sounded like shots from below deck, so that gave us the justification to start shooting."

For Heavens sake, once you step one foot on that ship, you are by definition 'surrounded'.

And I most certainly see the comparison of murdering innocent civilians on a protest march in Derry, with massacring innocent civilians on a protest flotilla in international waters.

they werent unarmed that much is at least undebateable

make of this video what you will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk&

SugarHigh

I don't understand these restrictions.

GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam

They are banning vitamin rich foods.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm

UltimateMale

ch750536 wrote: »

http://www.camera.org/ - read that if you want a giggle. All press in the US goes through this organisation first.

I know this is going to get some hatred, so be it. Israel is without doubt the closest thing to the nazi's right now. Again the rest of the world is doing nothing.

Yes, Zionazism as some are calling it.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

There's nothing petty about it - israel is deadly serious about protecting its citizens.

No, it is petty and childish. They blockaded Pasta and choclate, so it a perfectly apt description.

bambooze wrote: »

What you mean all those prisoners caught red-handed that get regular red cross visits, family visits, all the relative "luxuries" of prison and often come out wielding open uni degrees and the like?

No, I am talking about the ones held without trial, sexually abused, and tortured. All, of that is well established, so stop pretending otherwise.

bambooze wrote: »

Ye I see how thats the same as holding one israeli guy alone in some unknown place, never a single red cross visit, never a family visit, never any communication with the outside world (besides one video a year or two ago), no end in sight for his imprisonment, under constant fear of execution..

Your right there only holding one Israeli, while Israell is holding 1000s of Palestinians without trial, and regularly torturing them, and even sexually absuing some child prisoners.

Now, when Israel stops there crap, I will give a crap about Shalit.

bambooze wrote: »

Isreal Ireland is was a terrorist entity hell bent on re-creating some biblical republican fantasy, by ethnically cleansing the indigenous squatter populace..

Israel is the only country in the world for jews.. like ireland is for the irish - would you think it fine and dandy if the brits still ruled all of ireland? Are you just happy to ignore the brutal warfare that gave rise to what Ireland is today?

Your talking more nonsense. The Palestinians were the indigenous populace, genetic testings has long ago showed them to be descended from Jews themselves, so your comparison is a pack on absurd nonsense.

Again, you simply don't acknowledge Israels violence, for your own reasons, but the fact is that both sides need to cut the crap for there to be peace, but you would rather pretend one side doesn't nothing at all, which is clearly an absurd claim.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

riiggght.. verified by an islamic country, openly hostile to israel and cozying up with iran & syria - sure I'd trust them! :rolleyes:

Secular repuiblic actually. Get your facts straight.

UltimateMale

PeakOutput wrote: »

they werent unarmed that much is at least undebateable

make of this video what you will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk&

Strangely with IDF press releases, it’s almost always unarmed men, women, and children who always attack heavily armed soldiers/armoured cars/ heavy tanks first ?

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

they werent unarmed that much is at least undebateable

make of this video what you will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk&

What is undebatable is that Israel had no right to attack the flottila, and that the IDF are known liars, and there videos are inherently untrustworthy.

Oh and here is the other video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U

Where we hear the IDF firing on the boat, first.

UltimateMale

bambooze wrote: »

riiggght.. verified by an islamic country, openly hostile to israel and cozying up with iran & syria - sure I'd trust them! :rolleyes:

An Israeli spokesperson, now that's someone you can trust :rolleyes:

My name is URL

PeakOutput wrote: »

they werent unarmed that much is at least undebateable

make of this video what you will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk&

For a nation that usually remains relatively secretive about its military & intelligence agencies there sure are a lot of videos emerging from official sources. I'd almost be of the opinion that the fallout from this incident was planned for in advance