Aid Floatillas Attacked

Wibbs

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I think if you do more research you will find that the disputed territories belonged to Israel.

The problem of course is defining what "belongs" to Israel in the first place. They've made a helluva lot of landgrabs since the charter when Israel was drawn up.


IMHO how the Palestinians should handle this is by being the bigger man. Hand back the IDF soldier unharmed. Go to the UN and say "Look we've had enough of this guff. We've stopped the bombing and missile attacks and we're seeking a fair future for all We're looking for the land that was taken from us since 1948, or at least an acknowledgement that it was". Step back and watch the Israeli government sweat.

prinz

Wibbs wrote: »

IMHO how the Palestinians should handle this is by being the bigger man. Hand back the IDF soldier unharmed. Go to the UN and say "Look we've had enough of this guff. We've stopped the bombing and missile attacks and we're seeking a fair future for all We're looking for the land that was taken from us since 1948, or at least an acknowledgement that it was". Step back and watch the Israeli government sweat.

+1. Although can't see it happening with Hamas in charge.

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

Hostile state?Hmmm OK how about a state in the middle east with undisclosed amounts of nuclear weapons. A state that was prepared to sell such weapons and expertise to South Africa under apartheid.

Oh come on dont tell me you believed that nonsense story the other day?! lol

The fact is the current Turkish government has been openly and increasingly hostile to israel despite (and perhaps because of) the many agreements made with israel by the previous administration.. doesn't sit too well with their more islamist leanings.

Several Israeli wounded, 18/19 killed on the other side? Seems about par for the course with them, ratio wise.

Way to miss my point..

So is blind faith on either side.

Well I speak from some experience in the region having been to gaza several times, having worked with arabs & jews in israel, having spent time with palestinians from gaza (not activists) and having lived in israel (but not from israel and not jewish), having had a neighbour killed by terrorists. I've seen first hand the decline in pali fortunes since the first intifida and the rise of hamas and their ilk and the ever increasing attacks on israel. Things are not always quite what the palestinian solidarity clowns would have you believe.. :rolleyes:

I wont say israel is entirely without blame but they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.. facing an implacable enemy that calls for it to be wiped out entirely and actively works to that end both militarily and on the PR front.

bambooze

Typical of what israel faces really..

"EU to condemn Israel, call for unbiased probe"

Rather than wait for the results of the unbiased probe, just jump straight to the condemning. :rolleyes:

Dyr

bambooze wrote: »

Things are not always quite what the palestinian solidarity clowns would have you believe.. :rolleyes:

Indeed, I'd sooner believe someone who only created an account here today so they can post on this thread, much more credible source. :pac:

My name is URL

http://www.thejidf.org/2010/05/idf-soldier-shot-critically-wounded-on.html

Some nice disinformation there.. I wonder if anyone from the JIDF is posting here

strobe

bambooze wrote: »

Typical of what israel faces really..

"EU to condemn Israel, call for unbiased probe"

Rather than wait for the results of the unbiased probe, just jump straight to the condemning. :rolleyes:

It's already known that the IDF engaged the ship in international waters. There is no argument about that. Israel confirm as much. Hence no need for the EU or anyone else to wait for the results of the probe to condemn them on that point.

WIZE

The UN Security Council are live on Skynews now

bambooze

Bambi wrote: »

Indeed, I'd sooner believe someone who only created an account here today so they can post on this thread, much more credible source. :pac:

Well feel free to believe an openly biased organization instead.. thats much better!

Stinicker

Adolf Hitler had the right idea, and tbh didn't kill half enough of these overgrown rats.

biko

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Bloodthirsty Jews

Stinicker wrote: »

Adolf Hitler had the right idea, and tbh didn't kill half enough of these overgrown rats.

Banned
The Israeli government are to blame for this debacle, not Jews in general.

bambooze

Hence no need for the EU or anyone else to wait for the results of the probe to condemn them on that point.

Hardly think which side of the imaginary line in the sea they were on is the main issue here.. the intent was to break the blockade and reach gaza.

Nodin

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I think if you do more research you will find that the disputed territories belonged to Israel.

The West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem? No.

JONJO THE MISER

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.thejidf.org/2010/05/idf-soldier-shot-critically-wounded-on.html

Some nice disinformation there.. I wonder if anyone from the JIDF is posting here

Of course they are, scum of the highest order.

strobe

bambooze wrote: »

Hardly think which side of the imaginary line in the sea they were on is the main issue here.. the intent was to break the blockade and reach gaza.

It's one of the issues and dismissing it off hand makes you come across as extremely biased.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

Oh come on dont tell me you believed that nonsense story the other day?! lol

You should do more research. Israel in the 1970's supplied expertise and conventional weapon technology to SA http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Safrica/SABuildingBombs.html

"The seventies saw covert collaboration develop between the Israeli and South African nuclear programs, which was camouflaged by the well known collaboration between these countries on conventional arms. South Africa is known to have received technical assistance from Israel on its weapon program, in exchange for supplying Israel with 300 tons of uranium. But the extent of this assistance is not entirely clear. Several Israeli nuclear scientists, including the "Oppenheimer of Israel" Ernst David Bergmann, visited South Africa in 1967, and evidence of increasingly close relations accumulate throughout the 70s. Moshe Dayan is reported to have made a secret visit to discuss nuclear weapon cooperation in 1974, including the possibility of nuclear tests [Burrows and Windrem 1994]." These are established facts as far as the close relationship of Israeli and SA governments.

A "hostile state" at the time. A state that has ignored international law when it suited almost since its inception. A state that continues to do so. A state that was built on ethnic invasion of an existing culture. A state that has a woeful human rights record noted by various arms of the UN, the red cross and amnesty international. A state that has invaded its neighbours on more than a few occasions and commited what could well be described as war crimes. A state that is running an illegal blockade, causing untold misery behind said blockade. The list is long. http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=176596

Do you want me to expand on every single one of those points with references too? Or do you just want to continue to uselessly type "LOL"?

The fact is the current Turkish government has been openly and increasingly hostile to israel despite (and perhaps because of) the many agreements made with israel by the previous administration.. doesn't sit too well with their more islamist leanings.

Personally I dont like the notion of any Islamic state. Chances of nuttery way too high in that religious culture(separation of church and state is very very difficult in that faith). That said I think Israel is as bad as they are. As far as human rights violations and showboating.

Way to miss my point..

Don't see how. How many Palestinians, Lebanese and others have been displaced, wounded or killed over the years in comparison to Israelis? That's my point.

Well I speak from some experience in the region having been to gaza several times, having worked with arabs & jews in israel, having spent time with palestinians from gaza (not activists) and having lived in israel (but not from israel and not jewish), having had a neighbour killed by terrorists. I've seen first hand the decline in pali fortunes since the first intifida and the rise of hamas and their ilk and the ever increasing attacks on israel. Things are not always quite what the palestinian solidarity clowns would have you believe.. :rolleyes:

Like I say I think both are as mad as each other. Must be the sun. But Israel is by any definition just as much a "rogue state" in the ME as any of the others. As far as local effects go they're among the worst. Sad to say, but I have the suspicion if Israel had never been created or better yet had been handled way better than it was(by European and American superpowers BTW), then th ME would not be the powder keg it is today.

I wont say israel is entirely without blame but they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.. facing an implacable enemy that calls for it to be wiped out entirely and actively works to that end both militarily and on the PR front.

Oh they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but how have they handed it? They kept moving other peoples rocks.

AckwelFoley

Every coin has 2 sides.

This attack was wrong, but id like to hear both sides of the story. Sadly we are unlikely to get an unbiased reporting of the situation

Either way, this is bad PR for the Isreali government.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

Hardly think which side of the imaginary line in the sea they were on is the main issue here.. the intent was to break the blockade and reach gaza.

A very Israeli way to look at it. Ignore an "imaginary line" drawn up by international law, when it suits. "Oh they might do this or this might happen, so lets preempt it with armed assault, rather than handle the situation". No wonder GWB and his muppets got on so well with the Israeli government.

Son Of A Vidic

PeakOutput wrote: »

again i ask the question

why isnt the same thing that is happenin to gaza happening to the west bank?

i believe the answer is because gaza is controlled by extremists who wont talk and the west bank isnt

Undoubtedly Hamas is viewed as an extremist organisation by the West, but it's not as straight forward as that. When Fatah and the Palestinian Authority were kicked out of Gaza they were seen as a rotten, corrupt organisation by Gazians. What you choose to ignore here is a small matter of democracy. We may all prefer if Hamas did not control Gaza, but The PEOPLE of Gaza elected Hamas into power and we have no right to question their choice. Is this not the very principle of democracy? - the right of the people to choose.
All Israel is doing through the brutalisation of Palestinians civilians, is making Hamas stronger. I suspect that's what they want really, so they can continue their 'war' against a civilian population.
George W. finished off the Bush family 'Crusade' by invading Iraq for 'regime change'.The Americans were bringing 'Democracy' to the Middle East, fcuk what a success it was. Yet when there is a genuine democratic regime change in Gaza, the West choose to ignore it. The punishment of a civilian population through siege, blockade and terror contravenes the Geneva Convention. But let's not forget, Israel has ignored dozens of UN Resolutions over the years so they don't really give a sh1t.

Wibbs

snyper wrote: »

Either way, this is bad PR for the Isreali government.

and if hamas or others actually want peace and a fair crack of the whip they can now show their true colours. If they did it right and Israel still sat on them, stole their lands and tried to starve them out, then the world would see them for what they actually are. IMHO too many in the current Israeli government want to keep this aggro going. Makes it easy to hold back resources, steal land and keep their religious nutters happy, if you show the other side to be religous nutters bent on destruction. As far as Im concerned they deserve each other at this stage. If just a few on one side or the other actually bloody well stood up and said stop. It really is as simple as that.

bambooze

strobe wrote: »

It's one of the issues and dismissing it off hand makes you come across as extremely biased.

The vagaries of international and maritime law just don't strike me as too relevant to the violent confrontation which occurred - it would have happened the same regardless of which side of the line.. the same people would still be dead, the same still wounded. The intent was to confront the israelis and cause a major media storm.. fait accompli in that respect.

Son Of A Vidic

And the Brainless Israelis reacted in their normal over reactionary way, true to form I suppose.

bambooze

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

The vagaries of international and maritime law just don't strike me as too relevant to the violent confrontation which occurred - it would have happened the same regardless of which side of the line..

Interesting way to look at it yet again. It does matter when it shows Israels pretty consistent attitudes to international law. They simply dont care. Hey why not attack just as the ships left Cyprus? After all its just an imaginary line is it not? Or do you care where such lines are drawn or the laws which govern the rest of the world are drawn?

the same people would still be dead, the same still wounded. The intent was to confront the israelis and cause a major media storm.. fait accompli in that respect.

Now you're having a laugh. No really. Now its my turn to laugh out loud. So let me get this right? Nearly 20 people dead, due to the direct action of another group of people and somehow the dead and their mates wanted this to happen? So if I get jumped on in the street and punched, its my fault to interfere with the progress of someones fist with my chin? Give me an ever loving break. It could be far easier to argue that the Israelis did this to send a clear message. Or that they seriously screwed up and based on their history of not giving a fcuk for international opinion or sovereignty went all gung ho anyway. If there's any explanation for this its good ould fashioned Israeli hubris.

So how about that SA/Israeli nuclear/conventional weapons cooperation you LOL'd so hard over earlier? Or the other points raised. More and more you appear to be just as much a blinkered apologist as the pro Palestinian side.

PeakOutput

medicman2009 wrote: »

We may all prefer if Hamas did not control Gaza, but The PEOPLE of Gaza elected Hamas into power and we have no right to question their choice. .

absolutely they have the right to choose and with that right comes the responsibility and the consequences of their actions.

we have no right to question their choice but that dosnt mean their choice can do whatever the hell it wants

if our goverment invaded britain, well we elected them so does that make it ok?

also here is another pretty damning video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

edit; i think bambooze got there before me


edit2; it is clear right at the end of the video that one of the soldiers is using a paintball gun

bambooze

the dead and their mates wanted this to happen?

Not what I said - the dead generally prefer not to be.. hamas suicide bombers excepted. But the organizers and backers absolutely hoped for a confrontation that would make headlines.. which is not to say they expected fatalities but if you play with fire..

So how about that SA/Israeli nuclear/conventional weapons cooperation you LOL'd so hard over earlier? Or the other points raised. More and more you appear to be just as much a blinkered apologist as the pro Palestinian side.

From what I remember it was nothing but a blatant smear attempt, already discredited - lots of ifs and buts and maybes with no proof at all that israel was handing over nukes to SA.. accusations don't make for facts.

AckwelFoley

bambooze wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Thats not footage. Thats a trailer for Under Siege 3

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

It just shows the hubris and how much of a fcukup it was as an idea in the first place and a military operation. Amateur hour frankly. A bunch of armed to the teeth "special forces" men with the weight of a modern army, navy and air force behind them are forced back by men weilding placcy chairs and iron bars. Can you imagine that happening to someone like the SAS or Navy SEALs? I can imagine the convo if that was asked of the latter two groups too. "OK so lets get this straight. You want us to board a ship ferrying aid to a disputed zone, at night, in international waters, with live weapons and you dont want people to get fcuked up and an international incident to kick off? Eh no. Get the coastguard to do their job".

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

Not what I said - the dead generally prefer not to be.. hamas suicide bombers excepted. But the organizers and backers absolutely hoped for a confrontation that would make headlines.. which is not to say they expected fatalities but if you play with fire..

And the brains behind the Israeli government reckoned this was the way to go about it? Jesus, if any Israeli is reading this thread, vote for someone else next time. Hubris again on both sides. If Israel was in earnest and telling the truth, then let them dock and examine them there, or ask permission of the Cypriots to have an examination before they left, or suggest independent observers agreed by all to go along with the ships, or intercept them using the navy and guide them in, or I dunno raise the illegal and inhumane blockade in the first place to take away any possible PR stunts. This stuff isnt rocket science.

eamo12

bambooze wrote: »

Typical of what israel faces really..

"EU to condemn Israel, call for unbiased probe"

Rather than wait for the results of the unbiased probe, just jump straight to the condemning. :rolleyes:

Typical. I don't remember them calling emergency meetings when the palestinians were blowing up pizza parlours full of women and kids.