Aid Floatillas Attacked

enfant terrible

Wibbs wrote: »

It just shows the hubris and how much of a fcukup it was as an idea in the first place and a military operation. Amateur hour frankly. A bunch of armed to the teeth "special forces" men with the weight of a modern army, navy and air force behind them are forced back by men weilding placcy chairs and iron bars. Can you imagine that happening to someone like the SAS or Navy SEALs? I can imagine the convo if that was asked of the latter two groups too. "OK so lets get this straight. You want us to board a ship ferrying aid to a disputed zone, at night, in international waters, with live weapons and you dont want people to get fcuked up and an international incident to kick off? Eh no. Get the coastguard to do their job".

Probably didn't expect peaceful aid workers to go nuts and attack heavily armed soldiers.

strobe

PeakOutput wrote: »

absolutely they have the right to choose and with that right comes the responsibility and the consequences of their actions.

we have no right to question their choice but that dosnt mean their choice can do whatever the hell it wants

if our goverment invaded britain, well we elected them so does that make it ok?

also here is another pretty damning video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

edit; i think bambooze got there before me


edit2; it is clear right at the end of the video that one of the soldiers is using a paintball gun

I don't think anyone is claiming that a soldier being attacked doesn't have the right to defend himself. The point is the soldiers should never have been put in the position where they were going to be attacked. This incident didn't take place in Israeli territory, the IDF had no authority in those waters or on that boat. The passengers were as justified in tackling the soldiers as they would have been tackling Somali pirates that were hijacking their ship.

You really have to wonder at the mentality of whoever greenlighted the operation that they didn't wait till the ship entered Israeli territory. Was it just a big "Fukk You" to the international community or something? Can anyone present a possible explanation?

prinz

Wibbs wrote: »

....or intercept them using the navy and guide them in...

That's exactly what they were trying to do. The offer was refused.

strobe

eamo12 wrote: »

Typical. I don't remember them calling emergency meetings when the palestinians were blowing up pizza parlours full of women and kids.

There were constant meetings.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

From what I remember it was nothing but a blatant smear attempt, already discredited - lots of ifs and buts and maybes with no proof at all that israel was handing over nukes to SA.. accusations don't make for facts.

Fact Israeli nuclear scientists made numerous trips to SA from 1967 onward. Fact. Israel and SA collaborated on conventional weapons and delivered same to SA. Fact. SA supplied 300 tonnes of uranium to Israel in exchange for "expertise". Fact. Israel invited SA's PM John Vorster(a nazi sympathiser funny enough) to the country, established full diplomatic relations and supplied 30 grams of Tritium again in exchange for another 150 tonnes of SA uranium. BTW nice way to deflect from these fact by suggesting I said they handed over nukes. I said nothing f the kind. I said they cooperated for many a year on all sorts of weapon systems. Which in one way is worse than a one off for money.

Wibbs

prinz wrote: »

That's exactly what they were trying to do. The offer was refused.

Why werent the other ships attacked in this way? They wanted to send a clear message to both the sympathisers and the international community.

prinz

Wibbs wrote: »

Why werent the other ships attacked in this way? They wanted to send a clear message to both the sympathisers and the international community.

Why didn't the convoy heed the Israeli warnings and call to divert to a safe harbour? They wanted to send a message too.

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

BTW nice way to deflect from these fact by suggesting I said they handed over nukes. I said nothing f the kind. I said they cooperated for many a year on all sorts of weapon systems. Which in one way is worse than a one off for money.

The story I saw last week or so was about nuke weapons deals between israel & SA which was discredited. More than that I don't know, I wasn't following it. But that there was conventional military cooperation was no secret, they were allies to some extent afaik. Israel also sells all sorts weapons tech to Turkey.

Anyway a bit of a thread drift really.. not directly relevant to todays events.

Back on topic - that video I posted earlier is very clear and damning - israeli commandos were not dealing with peaceful activists, it was a lynch mob.

PeakOutput

Wibbs wrote: »

Why werent the other ships attacked in this way? They wanted to send a clear message to both the sympathisers and the international community.

the other ships were boarded in the same way this is the only one were it escalated to such an extent

also we can debate weather or not they should have been there till the cows come

i believe they ahve every right to board and force a ship to comply with their inspections you dont thats fine

but if we leave that aside and look at the events from the start of the boarding to the conclusion i think its safe toa ssume that the israelis thought it would be a fairly run of the mill operation with minor resistance(hence the riot gear) and that complacency earned them a few casualties because the activists went mental and beat the soldiers and threw them of potentially fatal heights, after that the soldiers are completely entitled to use more force.

someone said you would never see this happen with the navy seals or the sas well i guarantee you neither of those forces would be going in with paintball guns and i guarantee you that as soon as one of their comrades was on the ground being beaten every one of the people beating them would have been shot immedietely its a joke to suggest otherwise

Morlar

bambooze wrote: »

Back on topic - that video I posted earlier is very clear and damning - israeli commandos were not dealing with peaceful activists, it was a lynch mob.

They were armed and they illegally boarded a peaceful ship in international waters . That's like breaking into someones home and shooting them in the head and saying 'they were clearly not peaceful' as a defence.

strobe

prinz wrote: »

Why didn't the convoy heed the Israeli warnings and call to divert to a safe harbour? They wanted to send a message too.

Of course they were trying to send a message, their stated goal was that they were going to run the illegal Israeli blockade to deliver aid to Gaza. That's what they attempted to do. I just don't agree with the people that seem to be saying, "you play with fire......", that that attempt gives the Israeli government carte blanche to do whatever they like.

EuskalHerria

A shocked world has responded with outrage. Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals.
Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html

PeakOutput

Morlar wrote: »

They were armed and they illegally boarded a peaceful ship in international waters . That's like breaking into someones home and shooting them in the head and saying 'they were clearly not peaceful' as a defence.

they were armed with crowd control non lethal weapons, like paintball guns and tear gas

they were attacked before setting foot on the boat

all this occured before the rib arrived in the videos that people are claiming fired shots before boarding

they also disobeyed direct orders from a warship and didnt expect there to be consequences? they were specifically told in the video i posted already that they would not be allowed into israeli controlled waters and that they would not be allowed dock in gaza. they were specifically told that they could dock in israel and be inspected and their aid would then be allowed into the gaza strip

they ignored all this replying 'negative negative our destination is gaza'

this was not random helicopters appearing out of nowhere and landing troops on board this was the culmination of a series of warnings and orders from a military power who, in their opinion, is trying to protect its citizens from a terrorist goverment on its border.

they could have stopped the chain of events leading to their friends deaths at any time but they chose not to.

they could have made a statement by sitting peacefully on their ship and refusing to cooperate with boarders in any way, this would have similarly stopped the chain of events that lead to deaths

but they didnt

they chose to ignore repeated warnings form a nation that my 6 year old niece knows wont back down, they chose to forcefully resist a non-lethally armed force and their actions could have weasily killed a soldier, they chose to beat and attack the soldiers. those choices have consequences as we have unfortunately seen and im not very sympathetic towards those people after being on the fence this morning about it




they chose to ignore that warning

PeakOutput

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.[/B]

well thats retarded

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

The story I saw last week or so was about nuke weapons deals between israel & SA which was discredited. More than that I don't know, I wasn't following it. But that there was conventional military cooperation was no secret, they were allies to some extent afaik. Israel also sells all sorts weapons tech to Turkey.

Anyway a bit of a thread drift really.. not directly relevant to todays events.

Oh they'll sell arms to whomever whenever it suits. The SA connection was considered highly likely as far as their close allies the US were concerned. Their cooperation on conventional weaponry is well documented. Bare in mind that SA was considered a rogue state by international agreement. Didnt stop the Israelis. IMHO it is on topic, as it shows a history of the Israeli state not giving a fiddlers about international opinion or laws when it suits them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_South_Africa_relations

Back on topic - that video I posted earlier is very clear and damning - israeli commandos were not dealing with peaceful activists, it was a lynch mob.

You should write for the IDF. Hey maybe you do already judging by your completely arrow straight support of them. You're attempting to weasel the objective facts into making this look so much better for the IDF. To the point of laboriousness. Hey if you were some Hamas apologist I'd be teasing this out too. To clumsily paraphrase Lt Col Kilgore in Apocalypse Now: "I hate the smell of BS in the morning"

B0jangles

PeakOutput wrote: »

they were armed with crowd control non lethal weapons, like paintball guns and tear gas

they were attacked before setting foot on the boat

all this occured before the rib arrived in the videos that people are claiming fired shots before boarding

they also disobeyed direct orders from a warship and didnt expect there to be consequences? they were specifically told in the video i posted already that they would not be allowed into israeli controlled waters and that they would not be allowed dock in gaza. they were specifically told that they could dock in israel and be inspected and their aid would then be allowed into the gaza strip

they ignored all this replying 'negative negative our destination is gaza'

this was not random helicopters appearing out of nowhere and landing troops on board this was the culmination of a series of warnings and orders from a military power who, in their opinion, is trying to protect its citizens from a terrorist goverment on its border.

they could have stopped the chain of events leading to their friends deaths at any time but they chose not to.

they could have made a statement by sitting peacefully on their ship and refusing to cooperate with boarders in any way, this would have similarly stopped the chain of events that lead to deaths

but they didnt

they chose to ignore repeated warnings form a nation that my 6 year old niece knows wont back down, they chose to forcefully resist a non-lethally armed force and their actions could have weasily killed a soldier, they chose to beat and attack the soldiers. those choices have consequences as we have unfortunately seen and im not very sympathetic towards those people after being on the fence this morning about it




they chose to ignore that warning

So Might makes Right, legality is completely meaningless.

PeakOutput

strobe wrote: »

Of course they were trying to send a message, their stated goal was that they were going to run the illegal Israeli blockade to deliver aid to Gaza. That's what they attempted to do. I just don't agree with the people that seem to be saying, "you play with fire......", that that attempt gives the Israeli government carte blanche to do whatever they like.

their actions continued to escalate every step of the way and so did israels. when they decided to not peacefully resist the boarding their was only one possible outcome

Son Of A Vidic

PeakOutput wrote: »

absolutely they have the right to choose and with that right comes the responsibility and the consequences of their actions.

we have no right to question their choice but that dosnt mean their choice can do whatever the hell it wants

The same would also apply to Israel then wouldn't it? The Israeli people elected their Zionist government. They murder unarmed civilians on boats, they defy international law repeatedly and they use Irish passports to murder enemies in foreign countries. So should we punish innocent Israel civilians, for the aggressive policies of their elected government. Of course we shouldn't, similarly, the citizens of Gaza should also not suffer.

PeakOutput wrote: »

edit; i think bambooze got there before me


edit2; it is clear right at the end of the video that one of the soldiers is using a paintball gun

That soldier looked liked he fell into the life raft if you ask me, regardless, being a sea borne raid the relevant specialist Marine unit would have been deployed. I can assure you those guys can swim, being thrown overboard would not be a life threatening matter for them. By the way did the paintball gun in the video kill all those civilians then? I find it laughable that well protected commandos with their strategically placed Body Armour were 'threatened' by rag tag civilians.

PeakOutput

B0jangles wrote: »

legality is completely meaningless.

israel dosnt see itself as breaking the law. didnt someone already show that they didnt sign up to the international laws that people are saying they have broken?

israel defends its people, this is how it does it. flaunting their laws and provoking them is not going to get them to change at all and nor should it.

if i go to another country i have to respect their laws. if i go to america australia dubai israel anywhere i cant just make up my own laws.

in that part of the world the law is if you want to bring aid into gaza you must let us inspect because we are being attacked constantly and we will not allow weapons to be smuggled in, we dont care what you all think about this this is how its going to be. trying to sneak and smuggle in aid is no way to get them to change their laws and it will only harden israeli people against the rest of the world

there is now what six? ships worth of aid that is not going to get anywhere near gaza and maybe 20 people dead and it wont have changed anything.

even if they had a peacefull sit down protest on their boats it could have changed more imo

Ardent

wes wrote: »

What is undebatable is that Israel had no right to attack the flottila, and that the IDF are known liars, and there videos are inherently untrustworthy.

Oh and here is the other video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U

Where we hear the IDF firing on the boat, first.

What is this supposed to be? This is proof of nothing, except that both sides are capable of putting out propaganda.

I don't know, call me insensitive or whatever, but I can totally understand Israel's actions here. They have a blockade in place - for reasons some people agree with and some people don't - and these bleeding heart liberals were warned not to attempt to breach the blockade. And then they start attacking soldiers as they landed on the ship??

What did they expect was going to happen?

PeakOutput

medicman2009 wrote: »

The same would also apply to Israel then wouldn't it? The Israeli people elected their Zionist government. They murder unarmed civilians on boats, they defy international law repeatedly and they use Irish passports to murder enemies in foreign countries. So should we punish innocent Israel civilians, for the aggressive policies of their elected government. Of course we shouldn't, similarly, the citizens of Gaza should also not suffer.

israel have repeatedly said over and over again, leave us alone and we will leave you alone. hamas have repeatedly said over and over again we want to kill every jew on the planet. we arent going to agree because i dont have a problem with the assasination of terrorists anywhere in the world and with anyones passports and they didnt murder unarmed citizens they shot at people who were attacking them with weapons

That soldier looked liked he fell into the life raft if you ask me, regardless, being a sea borne raid the relevant specialist Marine unit would have been deployed. I can assure you those guys can swim, being thrown overboard would not be a life threatening matter for them. By the way did the paintball gun in the video kill all those civilians then? I find it laughable that well protected commandos with their strategically placed Body Armour were 'threatened' by rag tag civilians.

he fell 30 feet to the next deck he wasnt thrown overboard. no the soldiers with assault rifles killed the people when they were sent in after their comrades with paintball guns were beaten stabbed and thrown of large heights.

B0jangles

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel dosnt see itself as breaking the law. didnt someone already show that they didnt sign up to the international laws that people are saying they have broken?

israel defends its people, this is how it does it. flaunting their laws and provoking them is not going to get them to change at all and nor should it.

if i go to another country i have to respect their laws. if i go to america australia dubai israel anywhere i cant just make up my own laws.

in that part of the world the law is if you want to bring aid into gaza you must let us inspect because we are being attacked constantly and we will not allow weapons to be smuggled in, we dont care what you all think about this this is how its going to be. trying to sneak and smuggle in aid is no way to get them to change their laws and it will only harden israeli people against the rest of the world

there is now what six? ships worth of aid that is not going to get anywhere near gaza and maybe 20 people dead and it wont have changed anything.

even if they had a peacefull sit down protest on their boats it could have changed more imo

And how long do you think Israel will exist for if it permanently refuses to obey international law?
It's like a kid that has a fatal condition that'll kill him before he turns ten so he's given a free ride and never made do anything he doesn't want since he'll never get to grow up.

Wibbs

PeakOutput wrote: »

also we can debate weather or not they should have been there till the cows come

That's almost the most important debate in this. The deaths grab the headlines, but the reasons behind the deaths are what should be regarded more. On both sides. For a start, why were politicians and others refused passage on the ships in the first place? Whats going on there?

i believe they ahve every right to board and force a ship to comply with their inspections you dont thats fine

NOt outside their jurisdiction they dont. Major point of international law that one.

but if we leave that aside and look at the events from the start of the boarding to the conclusion i think its safe toa ssume that the israelis thought it would be a fairly run of the mill operation with minor resistance(hence the riot gear) and that complacency earned them a few casualties because the activists went mental and beat the soldiers and threw them of potentially fatal heights, after that the soldiers are completely entitled to use more force.

A monumental fcukup on the part of the Israelis and its gonna bit them in the arse. They really should have copped this. I truly believe they dont care. Hubris as I say. Lets imagine this had gone more peacefully? They still boarded the ship of a sovereign nation outside their jurisdiction in international waters. That is a biggy. A line was drawn and no mistake. They knew exactly where they were and it didnt even occur to them to respect it or worse they deliberately flouted this rule. There would have still been WTF's going on.

someone said you would never see this happen with the navy seals or the sas well i guarantee you neither of those forces would be going in with paintball guns and i guarantee you that as soon as one of their comrades was on the ground being beaten every one of the people beating them would have been shot immedietely its a joke to suggest otherwise

OH they would have kicked off. That wasnt my point. My point is they would have wondered WTF are we being sent in on what is a naval policing matter. If we go in chances are high people will get hurt.

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel have repeatedly said over and over again, leave us alone and we will leave you alone.

...yet there they are, building colonies in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Que Pasa, one might say.

PeakOutput

B0jangles wrote: »

And how long do you think Israel will exist for if it permanently refuses to obey international law?
It's like a kid that has a fatal condition that'll kill him before he turns ten so he's given a free ride and never made do anything he doesn't want since he'll never get to grow up.

israel aint going anywhere

if you took away the conflict with the palestinians israel is a completely normal productive country with a decent economy and nice people.

the only issue is the conflict between them and the palestinians and thats not gonna end until hamas is either destroyed or kicked out of gaza by its own people

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

You should write for the IDF.

I don't but I'll take that as a compliment.

Hey maybe you do already judging by your completely arrow straight support of them. You're attempting to weasel the objective facts into making this look so much better for the IDF. To the point of laboriousness. Hey if you were some Hamas apologist I'd be teasing this out too. To clumsily paraphrase Lt Col Kilgore in Apocalypse Now: "I hate the smell of BS in the morning"

The video speaks volumes.. calling "BS" in the face of such damning video evidence is denying reality. The facts are plain, no need for spin. These were not peaceful activists, they were a violent lynch mob.

For those that missed it earlier in the thread, it really needs to be seen..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

if you took away the conflict with the palestinians israel is a completely normal productive country with a decent economy and nice people.

the only issue is the conflict between them and the palestinians and thats not gonna end until hamas is either destroyed or kicked out of gaza by its own people

....one of the most surreal statements I've come across.

If its only to do with Hamas, why are they building in the West Bank?

PeakOutput

Nodin wrote: »

...yet there they are, building colonies in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Que Pasa, one might say.

they believe they have every right to, thats what needs to be negotiated upon and that wont change until there are negotiations

and there wont be negotiations with hamas or with anyone while hamas are still attacking them it just wont happen

My point is they would have wondered WTF are we being sent in on what is a naval policing matter. If we go in chances are high people will get hurt.

its a naval policing matter ot me and you to the israelis they are people trying to sneak/force their way threw a blockade set up to stop arms getting threw. they have to treat everyone attempting to do this the same ie as if they have arms on board. i dont know if israel has a coast guard or if its just a navy but either way they are military forces used to enforce this kind of thing the world over

drug trafficking in ireland for example is a criminal matter but is enforced by our navy on our waters

also the idea that its international waters falls flat on its face when they would be entering israel waters to deliver the aid and were told they were not allowed to do this

international waters laws do not apply if you think you are under threat

edit; oh and wibbs i havnt heard about this

For a start, why were politicians and others refused passage on the ships in the first place? Whats going on there?

whats the craic with that? which ships?

strobe

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel dosnt see itself as breaking the law. didnt someone already show that they didnt sign up to the international laws that people are saying they have broken?

I think it's more a case of they don't care if they are breaking the law or not. I never signed up to the law that prevents me from robbing your car but I wouldn't be arrogant or insane enough to try and use that as a defense.

israel defends its people, this is how it does it. flaunting their laws and provoking them is not going to get them to change at all and nor should it.

Appeasing them hasn't changed anything either. Did the people of Gaza sign up to these laws they are being forced to live under btw?

if i go to another country i have to respect their laws. if i go to america australia dubai israel anywhere i cant just make up my own laws.

If you lived in Germany in the 1930's and were Jewish should you have had to obey the laws in place in that place? Any government can impose any law they want. Doesn't make it right and deosn't mean they should be followed blindly.

in that part of the world the law is if you want to bring aid into gaza you must let us inspect because we are being attacked constantly and we will not allow weapons to be smuggled in, we dont care what you all think about this this is how its going to be. trying to sneak and smuggle in aid is no way to get them to change their laws and it will only harden israeli people against the rest of the world

The aid doesn't get through. That's the whole point.

there is now what six? ships worth of aid that is not going to get anywhere near gaza and maybe 20 people dead and it wont have changed anything.

even if they had a peacefull sit down protest on their boats it could have changed more imo

That's very naive. It wouldn't have changed anything and it certainly wouldn't be getting reported around the world right now. Not that I think what happened will change much either.

Wibbs

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel have repeatedly said over and over again, leave us alone and we will leave you alone.

Oh theyve said that while on the other hand letting their religious nutter settlers steal more and more and more land from the Palestinians.

hamas have repeatedly said over and over again we want to kill every jew on the planet.

Yes they have and they're another bunch of religious nutters. WTF is it with these bloody desert religions that they cant keep their dicks in their pants and their powder dry?

we arent going to agree because i dont have a problem with the assasination of terrorists anywhere in the world and with anyones passports

I do on so many levels. Number one it just acts as a big bloody recruitment poster for a new generation of nutters. Number two it flouts every convention of international law and makes them just as much a terror organisation as the rest. Israel is well used to this killing in other countries. All the way back to the end of WW2 when you could at least understand the reasons behind it.

and they didnt murder unarmed citizens they shot at people who were attacking them with weapons

How many did they shoot and kill? A tad disproportionate dont you think? Again I dont blame the IDF lads on the ground, I blame the muppets on both sides who put them there.