Aid Floatillas Attacked

PeakOutput

strobe wrote: »

That's very naive. It wouldn't have changed anything and it certainly wouldn't be getting reported around the world right now. Not that I think what happened will change much either.

it would have been reported and it would have garnered equally as much international attention as the israelis would be detaining foreign citizens who did nothing but sit down on their boat and the goverments would have to act to have them released. also 20 people would not be dead

if this was done repeatedly in a non provocative way(ie not like the turks are going to do by sending navy escorts with the aid) it would put the israelis in the constant position of having to either arrest peacefull foreign nationals and be under constant diplomatic pressure or to change their rules regarding the blockade or to change how much of the aid gets threw

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

they believe they have every right to, thats what needs to be negotiated upon and that wont change until there are negotiations

and there wont be negotiations with hamas or with anyone while hamas are still attacking them it just wont happen

Do you know where (a) Hamas are (b) where Gaza is and (c) where the West Bank is and finally (d) who Fatah are?

Sod'o swords

That video changes my view of the soldiers actions, obviouslythe deaths of people involved is still tragic, but it wasn't just commandos armed to the teeth massacring peaceful aid workers standing in an Orderly Que.
Of course that's only just over 1 minute of footage, and commandos could of course used un necessary force on other ships or soon after that, i'm not saying that isn't a possibility.

What the video doesn't change though is my view of the Israeli operation, it shouldn't of been conducted, simple as.

What will be interesting now is to see America's responce, will it be Similar to China's response to North Korea's Sinking of the south Korean ship.

strobe

PeakOutput wrote: »

it would have been reported and it would have garnered equally as much international attention as the israelis would be detaining foreign citizens who did nothing but sit down on their boat and the goverments would have to act to have them released. also 20 people would not be dead

if this was done repeatedly in a non provocative way(ie not like the turks are going to do by sending navy escorts with the aid) it would put the israelis in the constant position of having to either arrest peacefull foreign nationals and be under constant diplomatic pressure or to change their rules regarding the blockade or to change how much of the aid gets threw

Well we found some common ground finally. I also believe that civil disobedience and passive resistance is the way to go.

PeakOutput

Nodin wrote: »

Do you know where (a) Hamas are (b) where Gaza is and (c) where the West Bank is and finally (d) who Fatah are?

correct me now if im wrong

but

hamas are the (relatively)new goverment in gaza after fatah was expelled and labelled corrupt. they are also relgious extremists who only want to share the planet with people who believe the same as them

the west bank is still under fatah leadership as far as i know

iirc gaza is on the border with egypt and the west bank is on the border of jordan and is alot bigger than gaza

there is also dispute over areas in jerusalem i believe

[-0-]

10,000 angry Turks in their captial burning Israeli flags. Fun times ahead. Now, where did we put those nukes?

SugarHigh

This was posted on an Israeli news site.
http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.293313.1275312330!/image/577873088.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_295/577873088.jpg

A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife after Israel Navy commandos boarded their ship on May 31, 2010.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

Look at the window in the back and it's clearly in the middle of the day.:D

Wibbs

PeakOutput wrote: »

they believe they have every right to, thats what needs to be negotiated upon and that wont change until there are negotiations

and there wont be negotiations with hamas or with anyone while hamas are still attacking them it just wont happen

Call me a cynic, but I think they're only too happy to hav the Hamas boogyman in the frame. It means they can appease their own nutters with land. If the palestinians just sat down in front of bulldozers and nothing else then Israel would look like the bully it is. Oh wait some have tried that and been killed.

also the idea that its international waters falls flat on its face when they would be entering israel waters to deliver the aid and were told they were not allowed to do this

international waters laws do not apply if you think you are under threat

Eh yes they do. In the case of a naval bombardment there may be an argument there, but remember when the UK sank the Argentinian Belgrano in the falklands war? There was uproar as it may have happened just inside international waters

edit; oh and wibbs i havnt heard about this



whats the craic with that? which ships?

Yea apparently SF's TD Aengus O Snodaigh, Chris Andrews FF TD and others were refused boarding in Cyprus. Weird. Dont wanna go down tinfoil hat territory though.

The other aspect of this is the kidnapping of non Israeli citizens in international waters. Our government and others are rightly up in arms about this and have demanded the israelis hand them back. The israelis are imprisoing some of these people if they're unwilling to sign a document to say they're in Israel illegally. Brought Illegally to isreal by the israelies.

Wibbs

SugarHigh wrote: »

This was posted on an Israeli news site.
http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.293313.1275312330!/image/577873088.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_295/577873088.jpg

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

Look at the window in the back and it's clearly in the middle of the day.:D

Oh the piles of bullshít will be high on both sides in the coming days. But jesus thats classic. From the online boogyman photolibrary.

Son Of A Vidic

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel dosnt see itself as breaking the law. didnt someone already show that they didnt sign up to the international laws that people are saying they have broken?

We all know Israel didn't sign up to the nuclear non proliferation treaty, so that makes it o.k. then does it? It's a bit like safe sex - everyone agrees to wear condoms, but Israel says no they won't wear one. Well that just makes them scumbags then doesn't it?

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel defends its people, this is how it does it. flaunting their laws and provoking them is not going to get them to change at all and nor should it

An Aid ship flotilla is a serious threat to the Israeli nation then is it? Oh my, flouting Israeli law are we. Since when was Israel ever worried about the concept of Law or Human Rights.

PeakOutput wrote: »

if i go to another country i have to respect their laws. if i go to america australia dubai israel anywhere i cant just make up my own laws.

Of course you can't make up laws to suit yourself, however Israel has been doing this since the 14/05/1948. They now have it down to a fine art.

PeakOutput wrote: »

in that part of the world the law is if you want to bring aid into gaza you must let us inspect because we are being attacked constantly and we will not allow weapons to be smuggled in, we dont care what you all think about this this is how its going to be. trying to sneak and smuggle in aid is no way to get them to change their laws and it will only harden israeli people against the rest of the world

Just to point out Israeli law does not apply to International waters, the bloodbath occurred in international waters. Of course Israel doesn't care what the world thinks, it never has. Maybe it's time the world stopped caring what Israel thinks and imposed some serious penalties for persistent state sponsored terrorism. I noticed you used the term 'we' quite a bit, so are you Israeli then? It might explain why you try to defend the indefensible and the illogical.
Just in case your're IDF here are some words of advice..... Don't brutalise people because it only leads to resistance. Don't terrosire people because it only leads to revenge.
Here's a famous quote worth contemplating.....[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]

If... the machine of government... is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobediance, 1849[/FONT]

Time for me to go, I've got work first thing on the kibbutz.

Ardent

bambooze wrote: »

The video speaks volumes.. calling "BS" in the face of such damning video evidence is denying reality. The facts are plain, no need for spin. These were not peaceful activists, they were a violent lynch mob.

For those that missed it earlier in the thread, it really needs to be seen..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Pretty conclusive stuff.

enfant terrible

Wibbs wrote: »

NOt outside their jurisdiction they dont. Major point of international law that one.

60km outside though, is it unusual for a country to intercept a vessel 60km outside its border when it knows where its heading?

wes

Ardent wrote: »

What did they expect was going to happen?

Clearly didn't expect to be murdered by a bunch of pirates.

wes

Ardent wrote: »

Pretty conclusive stuff.

That they defended themselves from IDF pirates who attacked there ship, in which case yes.

PeakOutput

medicman2009 wrote: »

An Aid ship flotilla is a serious threat to the Israeli nation then is it? Oh my, flouting Israeli law are we. Since when was Israel ever worried about the concept of Law or Human Rights.

it being an aid ship or not is irrelevant every ship must be inspected by the israelis or it dosnt get to gaza, there are no exceptions. this could have been an aid ship or a cruise ship full of tourists or a ship laden with rockets they would have approached it the same way

come into port so we can inspect you

no, ok stop

no, ok we are going to board you.

Just to point out Israeli law does not apply to International waters

they were on their way into israeli waters, they were told to stop, they didnt.

I noticed you used the term 'we' quite a bit, so are you Israeli then? It might explain why you try to defend the indefensible and the illogical.

nope born in the rotunda 5 years in skerries 20years in malahide and a bit of limerick. catholic on the birth cert but non religous, so that should take care of most of your excuses for disregarding my opinion as having ulterior motive.


and i agree with whoever said they like having the hamas boogyman to demonise as hamas makes it so easy for them. unfortunately they are still correct to demonise them and many of their actions i have no problem with because they are as a result of hamas actions. its the more extreme things they do were hamas is the biggest problem because they make it so easy to justify anything because they themselves are monsters

arybvtcw0eolkf

bambooze wrote: »

The video speaks volumes.. calling "BS" in the face of such damning video evidence is denying reality. The facts are plain, no need for spin. These were not peaceful activists, they were a violent lynch mob.

For those that missed it earlier in the thread, it really needs to be seen..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

I won't lie, I'm a very strong Israeli supporter & my emotions have swung back and forth this incident.

Initially I couldn't fathom how 19 people could be killed in such a space of time.

But the more video clips I see posted, from both sides, leads me to believe that if the boot was on the other foot we'd be looking at a lot more Israeli deaths tonight.

I do think it was folly ordering this boarding and it seems as though the IDF didn't exhaust all other means. But nothing justifies the beating dished out to the boarding party of IDF personnel by these people.

This clip is compelling viewing.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

So I suggest you read up on the changes the current islamist regime is implementing.. the freedoms removed, the placing of islamic lackeys in key positions (in education for example), the arrest of top generals and war heros (people with the power to motivate the populace).. Turkey is indeed officially a secular state but its long treasured secularism is rapidly being eroded by Erdogan. These are facts, research for youself.

I am well aware of the situation in Turkey, and also well aware, that what you saying is laughable wrong. The current Turkish government has actually made a lot of liberal changes, due to them trying to get into the EU, which has stalled recently, but before the stall, they made a lot of liberal changes to there laws, for example getting rid of the death penalty, to match EU norms. So, what your clamming a pathetic attempt at smearing.

bambooze wrote: »

Not sure I follow you.. I didn't say they have any problems with their neighbours to the east, quite the opposite - I said they are busy cozying up to such paragons of freedom and democracy like syria and iran..

They are cozying up to all there neighbors, as part of a policy of 0 problems with all there neighbors, which you are deliberately mis-representing as some kind of alliance with Iran and Syria. Again, another poor attempt at smearing.

bambooze wrote: »

Although having said that they do have a few problems with the kurds.. 6 soldiers killed today in fact.

Nothing to do with the current topic.

nacho libre

PeakOutput wrote: »

correct me now if im wrong

but

hamas are the (relatively)new goverment in gaza after fatah was expelled and labelled corrupt. they are also relgious extremists who only want to share the planet with people who believe the same as them

a bit of background info on hamas:
“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”




Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

correct me now if im wrong

but

hamas are the (relatively)new goverment in gaza after fatah was expelled and labelled corrupt. they are also relgious extremists who only want to share the planet with people who believe the same as them

the west bank is still under fatah leadership as far as i know

iirc gaza is on the border with egypt and the west bank is on the border of jordan and is alot bigger than gaza

there is also dispute over areas in jerusalem i believe

Roughly correct. Thus, the peaceful areas - Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank - are run by Fatah. You stated

they believe they have every right to, thats what needs to be negotiated upon and that wont change until there are negotiations

and there wont be negotiations with hamas or with anyone while hamas are still attacking them it just wont happen

Why should there be building on the land of peaceful Palestinians, justified by blaming Hamas?

SugarHigh

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

I won't lie, I'm a very strong Israeli supporter & my emotions have swung back and forth this incident.

Initially I couldn't fathom how 19 people could be killed in such a space of time.

But the more video clips I see posted, from both sides, leads me to believe that if the boot was on the other foot we'd be looking at a lot more Israeli deaths tonight.

I do think it was folly ordering this boarding and it seems as though the IDF didn't exhaust all other means. But nothing justifies the beating dished out to the boarding party of IDF personnel by these people.

This clip is compelling viewing.

Were gunshots fired at this point?

The boat was being illegally raided shouldn't I think anything you do to someone who is raiding your boat while you are not breaking law deserves what they get. If it was Somali pirates boarding the boat would you have a problem with the crew beating them?

Indubitable

If they had waited until the ships were in Israeli waters I wouldn't have seen it as a big ordeal TBH

Lol at the thread tags btw

ScumLord

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

I won't lie, I'm a very strong Israeli supporter & my emotions have swung back and forth this incident.

Initially I couldn't fathom how 19 people could be killed in such a space of time.

But the more video clips I see posted, from both sides, leads me to believe that if the boot was on the other foot we'd be looking at a lot more Israeli deaths tonight.

I do think it was folly ordering this boarding and it seems as though the IDF didn't exhaust all other means. But nothing justifies the beating dished out to the boarding party of IDF personnel by these people.

This clip is compelling viewing.

It takes two to tango, as with all conflicts neither side is innocent, like I said earlier if you attack Israeli military personal you'll more than likely end up shot, but the same rings true if you board a boat armed, that has people that feel you've no right to be there and that believe in their hearts their doing something important to help others expect to get the crap beaten out of you.

That's just basic common sense and it's why you would't see an incident like this in the US or EU. I always lay the blame ultimately with the Israelis, there the developed country, they have educated people that should see the futility of this conflict. The Palestinians have had their homes and amenities bombed into the ground they're living like trapped rats and are desperate with nothing left to lose.Their completely wrong and stupid to be constantly attacking Israel but I can see how the circumstances have left them thinking they've little other choice.

Sheeps

Fuck Israel.

Sonnenblumen

As a neutral I am finding it hard to understand why were so many "Humanitarian aid workers" ready for a fight? Aid workers would not attack police/soldiers, so why here? Also no explanation has been given for the large number of knives, molotov cocktails which appear to have been readily available.

Right/wrong it was damn stupid for those guys to attack IDF?

Israel has been confronting fire with fire for years, ever since the state was established.

A very serious incident and surprised it has gone so far (with some unhelpful comments) in AH.

WIZE

Sheeps wrote: »

Fuck Israel.

Well done

Mr Benevolent

Sheeps wrote: »

Fuck Israel.

A bit strong, but Israel have always been masters of PR disaster. They're way too quick on the trigger, and that will eventually get the whole country blown up.

They really should've refused Britain's offer of Palestinian land back in the 40's and settled in their original destination, Tanzania. I bet they're kicking themselves now.

PeakOutput

Nodin wrote: »

Why should there be building on the land of peaceful Palestinians, justified by blaming Hamas?

its not just buildings though is it they havnt really lifted restrictions on those areas either have they? they have just not attacked them since they stopped attacking them

lets say they recognised these places as a country of their own while gaza was still up to its old tricks. the west bank and jeruslam arent going to disown gaza and its people so presumably there would be free travel between those places or the agreement wouldnt be accepted

this opens up the avenue for the extremists to travel to these places with less restrictions which creates a threat

there cant be negotiations until everyone on each side agrees to it OR one faction on one side is so overwhelmingly in control that the other faction dosnt matter that is not the case gaza and the west bank. so until hamas stop their **** jeruslam and west bank are going to suffer aswell

also i dont think the buildings are punishment as much as they are just be ing stubborn we believe we are right to do this so we are going to do it no matter what sort of stuff.

the way i see it is, get rid of the terrorists and the attacks stop overnight. after there has been a sustained period of peace restrictions for aid etc can be reduced. then after this peace has been shown to be lasting the israelis can justify stitting down at the negotiation table to their citizens. the first step is getting rid of the terrorists because under no circumstances can they be seen to have won

thebaldsoprano

Ardent wrote: »

Pretty conclusive stuff.

Nope, it's pretty edited stuff.

They're showing you exactly what they want you to see. No doubt the other side will be up to similar shenanigans, which is why these kind of clips are best looked at with a healthy dose of skepticism.

jimmycrackcorm

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

I do think it was folly ordering this boarding and it seems as though the IDF didn't exhaust all other means. But nothing justifies the beating dished out to the boarding party of IDF personnel by these people..

If Israeli soldiers entered my house illegally then I'd be having a go at them with an iron bar too.

Donkey Oaty

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

I won't lie, I'm a very strong Israeli supporter & my emotions have swung back and forth this incident.

Initially I couldn't fathom how 19 people could be killed in such a space of time.

But the more video clips I see posted, from both sides, leads me to believe that if the boot was on the other foot we'd be looking at a lot more Israeli deaths tonight.

I do think it was folly ordering this boarding and it seems as though the IDF didn't exhaust all other means. But nothing justifies the beating dished out to the boarding party of IDF personnel by these people.

This clip is compelling viewing.

I've read most of this thread, and this post strikes me as one of the more useful contributions. The poster states their loyalties, their doubts, their conclusions, their worries, and not once do they give an amateur potted mini-history or pour scorn on anyone else.

Their is a sense of open-mindedness about it.

Danny Wooden Savannah, you are what the peace process needs.