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Aid Floatillas Attacked

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    #752
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Pauleta wrote: »
    The ship wasnt being attacked. They were just boarding the ship and they were gonna bring it to an Israeli port to inspect it or get them to turn around. If a Garda or even armed Garda entered your home and you started hitting them and beating them with metal bars, i dont think "self defence" is gonna hold up in court. And i agree they should of waited until they got into Israeli waters, it was idiotic of them to do it but once you attack a soldier you are an enemy combatant and a critical thread to the soldiers life and the operation.

    Garda or even an armed Grada have a right to enter your home with a warrant. That analogy only makes sense if you were to say "if an armed security gaurd from an private security firm working in the congo enters your home" and you hit them with a metal bar would self defense hold up.


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    #753
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Pauleta wrote: »
    Do you have evidence of this?

    The claims were reported in the news earlier.


    Do you have any evidence that the Israeli soldiers didn't?


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    #754
    deisedevil
    Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    Pauleta wrote: »
    Would you attack them with metal bars? And as posted earlier, nothing happened to the people on the other ships and they are all still alive. Work that one out.

    When you hear about one ship having passengers killed then you go along quietly in all fairness.


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    #755
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Min wrote: »
    Only idiots attack armed soldiers.

    And if our forefathers had that same mindset, we wouldn't have a Republic now, would we.


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    #756
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Pauleta wrote: »
    Would you attack them with metal bars? And as posted earlier, nothing happened to the people on the other ships and they are all still alive. Work that one out.

    Well done, you've completely evaded my point. If a foreign police force (in other words, a group of individuals with no mandate to be there, and no more legal power than I have) broke into my house, and I defended myself with a metal bar, I don't believe that any case against me would stand up in court.


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    #757
    snow ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭snow ghost


    Pauleta wrote: »
    What does bloody sunday have to do with this?

    In drawing an analogy of civilians being massacred, and the sickening way in that some can justify crimes against civilians by armed forces.

    The reason no civilians on the other ships were injured wasn't because they didn't defend themselves - it was because the Israeli defence Forces wanted to 'cut off the head' of the Flotilla - thus they had no need to attack the other ships, once they had done the job on the lead ship.


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    #758
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,169 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Im sick to death of Israel at this stage.

    They have had more then enough chances they never condem anything they do wrong, time for the Americans to come down hard on them on this, but you know what, it wont happen.


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    #759
    DylanJM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭DylanJM


    Yes it was an illegal act by Israel and yes the people had a right to do defend themselves. However I just cannot see the logic in trying to fight them off, you are just going to make things worse for yourself and the rest of the people on the boat. Why not just surrender peacefully like the five other boats did.


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    #760
    DylanJM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭DylanJM


    Wait was this boat boarded first or last?


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    #761
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    DylanJM wrote: »
    Yes it was an illegal act by Israel and yes the people had a right to do defend themselves. However I just cannot see the logic in trying to fight them off, you are just going to make things worse for yourself and the rest of the people on the boat. Why not just surrender peacefully like the five other boats did.

    Personally I would have jumped straight on to my knees with my hands behind my head and just hoped no one decided to shoot me. But I should never have had to resort to doing that. If everyone always just surrendered peacefully when faced with a stronger enemy there would be no Jewish people let alone a state of Israel right now.


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    #762
    deisedevil
    Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    DylanJM wrote: »
    Yes it was an illegal act by Israel and yes the people had a right to do defend themselves. However I just cannot see the logic in trying to fight them off, you are just going to make things worse for yourself and the rest of the people on the boat. Why not just surrender peacefully like the five other boats did.

    That's what I'm wondering myself. Would like to see the video before the soldiers were attacked. In all fairness these humanitarians didn't go there looking to start a fight, they would never win and they weren't on a suicide mission so why did they start attacking armed troops. They had boats and ships surrounding them and helicopters above them. They must have been defending themselves for some reason.


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    #763
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    DylanJM wrote: »
    Yes it was an illegal act by Israel and yes the people had a right to do defend themselves. However I just cannot see the logic in trying to fight them off, you are just going to make things worse for yourself and the rest of the people on the boat. Why not just surrender peacefully like the five other boats did.

    It's the middle of the night, you're in international waters, there have been repeated warnings from the Israelis threatening the use of force.

    All of a sudden, you hear helicopters. Flash bangs and tear gas are dropped onto the deck. Shots are fired. Perhaps warning shots? Perhaps rubber amunition.

    Maybe someone got hurt, it starts a panic.

    Fully equipped and armed soldiers are boarding the ship. We are talking about the IDF here, an organisation with a reputation for ruthless brutality, known to have killed countless innocent civillians, journalists and aid workers.

    More panic. People are screaming. How much of it is coherent?

    "The Israelis are attacking"

    Maybe you think you are going to die and the reflex is to pick up the thing nearest to you to try and defend yourself. I don't think it's logic. I think it's fight or flight, and I think that's exactly what the IDF expected and wanted.


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    #764
    snow ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭snow ghost


    DylanJM wrote: »
    Yes it was an illegal act by Israel and yes the people had a right to do defend themselves. However I just cannot see the logic in trying to fight them off, you are just going to make things worse for yourself and the rest of the people on the boat. Why not just surrender peacefully like the five other boats did.

    They tried to surrender apparently and hoisted a white flag - however seeing the colleague next to you blown away may lead you to picking up a bar or anything and trying to defend yourself against a murderous assault.


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    #765
    yeahimhere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭yeahimhere


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why so many breaks in the footage? Why no footage of the turks getting hit by rounds? I know you can see them yielding weapons but not firing them. It is very very painfully obvious that this clip has been released to support the actions of the IDF, without actually showing the gorey reality of those actions.

    In one of the clips, the reporter says that their mobile communications were blocked however they were able to continue their satalite video feed as it wasn't affected. This would suggest that as they were beaming the images elsewhere, there shouldn't be edited versions of events on the ship.

    Perhaps the reporters didn't catch the shootings (looks like quite a large ship and if I was them, I think I'd get away from any gun fire!) or the images were actually edited.

    I agree that both sides will have a different version of events depending on which side they're on. Even when we hear the Irish contingent's version of events when they are released, they will no doubtibly be slightly tainted to favour their collegues on the boat.

    I don't think either side will agree on who was at fault. It will be interesting to see Turkeys response to this in the future since they're a NATO country. If they do provide navy escorts to their aid ships and it kicks off - all other NATO countries could be brought in.


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    #766
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Remember who they were dealing with.


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    #767
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,169 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Remember who they were dealing with.

    Can you imagine if the Palestinians did this to Israel.

    The Americans would be up in arms. But its hidden because its Israel.


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    #768
    deisedevil
    Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    Memnoch wrote: »
    It's the middle of the night, you're in international waters, there have been repeated warnings from the Israelis threatening the use of force.

    All of a sudden, you hear helicopters. Flash bangs and tear gas are dropped onto the deck. Shots are fired. Perhaps warning shots? Perhaps rubber amunition.

    Maybe someone got hurt, it starts a panic.

    Fully equipped and armed soldiers are boarding the ship. We are talking about the IDF here, an organisation with a reputation for ruthless brutality, known to have killed countless innocent civillians, journalists and aid workers.

    More panic. People are screaming. How much of it is coherent?

    "The Israelis are attacking"

    Maybe you think you are going to die and the reflex is to pick up the thing nearest to you to try and defend yourself. I don't think it's logic. I think it's fight or flight, and I think that's exactly what the IDF expected and wanted.

    Exactly. And this is why soldiers should not have been put on that ship, whjether in international waters or not.


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    #769
    joesoap007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭joesoap007


    Mister men wrote: »
    You'd be surprised what a soldier will do to himself in the name of his country.
    troops do hurt them selfs all the time jumping out of moving chopers on to the deck of a piching boat ...pitty they all didn fall and break their necks..there were kids on that boat when it was in the last port.hope there safe.what if the holocaust survivor was hurt or killed.a us foreign diplomat or x diplomat was aborad aswell come to think of it a good few heads like that were on the boat..i hope they bounce the book of their israeli rat heads.but will the world open its eyes?i dont no.but if it dose it took people from other countrys to get killed at sea when more then 1500 poepe in palestine were blasted to bits in 09 and no1 gave 2 fcuks.well no1 up high anyway its crazy...the idf are a bunch of pirate kidnappers, free gaza love palestine.


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    #770
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    iguana wrote: »
    Yes, right or wrong bedamned, you should never defend yourself against an aggressor. When German tanks roll into Poland you accept their mighty force and don't fight back or declare war on them.

    The problem with that analogy (Or using the rather spirited and under-known Kuwaiti defence in 1990) is that survival is always a possibility. Start fighting, and when the odds get too tough, fall back to continue fighting. Neither Poland nor Kuwait stayed to die in place. There was no possibility of the people on the ship fighting off the Israelis for long enough for either help to arrive, or for them to escape to fight another day.

    NTM


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    #771
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    "I was only following orders" is not deemed a justifiable defense for committing crimes

    That quote is overly simplistic, and legally wrong. Indeed, from the Manual for Courts Martial states that all orders have a presumption of lawfulness, and it is a defence to any offence to have been acting under orders: the burden is on the prosecution to prove that the soldier should have known that it was an unlawful order. The legalities behind 'Go board a ship that we're enforcing a blockade upon' are probably above every person who was involved in the operational planning of that seiszure.

    NTM


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    #772
    Stratige
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Stratige


    joesoap007 wrote: »
    troops do hurt them selfs all the time jumping out of moving chopers on to the deck of a piching boat ...pitty they all didn fall and break their necks..there were kids on that boat when it was in the last port.hope there safe.what if the holocaust survivor was hurt or killed.a us foreign diplomat or x diplomat was aborad aswell come to think of it a good few heads like that were on the boat..i hope they bounce the book of their israeli rat heads.but will the world open its eyes?i dont no.but if it dose it took people from other countrys to get killed at sea when more then 1500 poepe in palestine were blasted to bits in 09 and no1 gave 2 fcuks.well no1 up high anyway its crazy...the idf are a bunch of pirate kidnappers, free gaza love palestine.
    You must have no brain.


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    #773
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Remember who they were dealing with.

    Nice to see you sticking up for the homeland:D


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    #774
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Remember who they were dealing with.

    You disappointment me...
    A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) told Sky News Online, the t-shirts were printed on the private initiative of the soldiers and their designs "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless. This type of humour is unacceptable and should be condemned".


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    #775
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    "And should be condemned" Strong words indeed :rolleyes:


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    #776
    bambooze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭bambooze


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    Nope, it's pretty edited stuff.

    They're showing you exactly what they want you to see. No doubt the other side will be up to similar shenanigans, which is why these kind of clips are best looked at with a healthy dose of skepticism.

    No amount of editing could make much difference to the reality portrayed in that video - it is as plain as the nose on your face.
    im sorry but surely these videos mean noting, are these not from the IDF?

    So because you don't like the messenger you automatically reject the message? Its all too common that any evidence israel provides is ignored and quickly buried under a mass of anti-israel crap.

    Reminds me of south park - "blame canada!" but in reality its always "blame israel!" no matter what the evidence shows.
    Bambi wrote: »
    What needs to be seen? These guys laying into the boarders with sticks or poles? A solider falling to his certain doom all of...ooh.. 10 feet below? The israelis look like they dropped in there expecting to meet the usual middle class do gooders, throw a few slaps into them and take over the ship. Instead it looks like they ran into a few hundred p**sed off turks, no sympathy for them. They chose to hijack the boat they are responsible for the consequences.

    No sympathy? Responsible for the consequences? How right you are! "Peace activists" purposely confront military after numerous warnings, attempting to lynch the israelis and end up dead! Serves them right indeed. :rolleyes:
    ascanbe wrote: »
    They were on a boat which, as well as transporting them, would have doubled as their living quarters; why wouldn't they have knives?
    If someone tried to break into my house, i'd have a number of knives 'readily available' to me in the kitchen.
    They were also likely to have some glass containers on this boat, for any number of reasons, and access to petrol as they were, as i stated, on a boat.

    Don't think the knives in question were the type you'd use to butter your toast. These were weapons of the type that would get you arrested in many civilized countries just for carrying it. Anyway they were not living on the boat, any more than you'd live on the ferry to liverpool. They were passengers.


    Why would being on a boat give them access to petrol? If anything it would be diesel which is not too flammable but I find it unlikely they'd have access to the fuel tanks anyway..
    strobe wrote: »
    Hard to say really. Wouldn't the Israeli's have total control over what footage taken was released to this point? They took full control of the ship and the crew. I haven't seen a single clip of a civilian being shot and as we know several were. Whatever about a "massacre" where is any of the footage of a civilian being shot? Shouldn't we have seen at least one of the shootings by now?

    Turkish journos and al jazeera managed to get plenty of footage out which was all over youtube in no time. Many hours before the IDF released anything.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    That footage didn't get out, it was put out, and clearly edited to remove the part where the IDF open fire. You can see where the video cuts and the mob go from flinging chairs and swinging poles to standing meekly huddled in groups backing away from the IDF men. I wonder what happened in between? Hmmm....

    I'd imagine those with cameras suddenly realised that it would be in their best interests to hit the deck once the shooting started.. that it was really not a game or a bit of fun after all.
    My name is URL wrote: »
    it could have all been averted if they had waited until it entered Israel's water.

    How would that have made any difference? Did the people on board even know what side of the line they were on? Would they really have acted differently once on the israeli side? Pretty unlikely.
    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    Yeah pure propaganda which no one believes, Michael Martin do the right thing and expel that scum of a Ambasador back to his war crime scum of a illegal nation.

    Biased much? No surprise you wouldn't believe an actual truth from israel if it kicked you in the arse.
    Drake66 wrote: »
    Yes he was going to die because the few seconds of footage say he was going to die.

    By the savagery of the beating clearly visible on the video I'd have no difficulty believing the soldier on the receiving end clearly thought he would die if it continued much longer..
    Deleted User wrote: »
    No I think it was aid they were trying to send.

    No it wasn't, the organisers even stated as much publicly - the aim was to run the blockade. They were offered the chance to deliver the aid to gaza via an israeli port and refused.. they couldn't care less about delivering the aid.


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    #777
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    SKY NEWS: Activists are sending more boats to counter Gaza blockade.


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    #778
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    its not just buildings though is it they havnt really lifted restrictions on those areas either have they? they have just not attacked them since they stopped attacking them

    Which of these strikes you as the more 'normal' statement -

    'We won't lift restrictions until you stop.'

    or

    'We won't stop building and expanding colonies on your land until you stop'.

    Does it not strike you as a strange thing to be taking somebodys land and expecting them to be 'peaceful' at the same time? In the event of Hamas discovering the true meaning of Christmas will the Netanyahu Fairy wave his wand and make the magical settlements vanish?


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    #779
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Skynews are reporting cannon fodder "militants'' crossing the border of Gaza and attacking targets in Israel - and the cycle continues!.. Sigh.


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    #780
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    bambooze wrote: »
    By the savagery of the beating clearly visible on the video I'd have no difficulty believing the soldier on the receiving end clearly thought he would die if it continued much longer..

    Apparently iron bars, sticks, chairs etc etc are not deadly weapons, and in fact won't inflict serious harm or death upon the poor unfortunet on the receiving end!.


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    #781
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bambooze wrote: »
    No it wasn't, the organisers even stated as much publicly - the aim was to run the blockade. They were offered the chance to deliver the aid to gaza via an israeli port and refused.. they couldn't care less about delivering the aid.

    Given the restrictions placed by Israel, their refusal to produce a definitive list of what is and isn't banned, its hardly suprising they refused. Thus, they were more concerned about delivering aid than kowtowing to the Israeli blockade.


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