Aid Floatillas Attacked

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:08am

bambooze wrote: »

What you think hundreds of people can just be rolled off a boat and onto a plane conveniently waiting there at the port? You are not being reasonable at all..

There are countless interntional journalists reporting on the incident from Ashdod where the ships were taken. Why have NONE of these been allowed access to a SINGLE protester from the attacked ship?

a violent confrontation took place, the people involved are being dealt with by the authorities. The latest news report in fact says..

Really? Who is dealing with the IDF that indiscriminatorily killed innocent civilians?

Allowing time for their flights to actually arrive wherever they are going and perhaps get some sleep, being human and all.. I'd expect them to start blogging about their adventure fairly soon now.

Let's cut away the PR spin. Allowing time for the media attention to die down and the Israeli version of events repeatedly rammed down our throats the past 24+ hours to proliferate into mass consciousness.

PeakOutput · 01-06-2010 9:10am

Memnoch wrote: »

Lies and deception.

The Israelis did not attack the other ships prior to boarding them. They attacked a ship and killed people on board in order to "cut of the head" of the flotilla. They did not need to attack anyone afterwards as the murders on the first ship were enough to break the back of any possible resistance.

show me the proof there was plenty of time to get video off the ship why didnt they get video of this actually happening off the ship?

how did israelis form a rib on the surface of the sea(below the lowest deck of the ship) manage to shoot someone in the leg(the only video iv seen shows a man on a stretcher with his leg bandaged)

all the evidence points to these facts

the israelis boarded with non lethal force

they were met with potentially lethal force they werent expecting

they then sent in soldiers that are fully armed

there were 6 soldiers injured 2 critically

there were up to 19 people killed(any final figures?)

there were other ships that were unharmed

yes the israeli videos are edited, so are the activists, there is spin coming from both sides people on both sides are blindly believing whatever the hell they want that reinforces their prejudices

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:10am

bambooze wrote: »

Gangs of thugs with clubs laying into guys on the floor.. whats to spin?

The fact that the Israelis fired first. As reported by the protesters on board BEFORE the Israelis blacked out all communication.

The fact that the HEAVILY edited ISRAELI footage only shows desperate people in fear for their lives after they've been shot at from above, believing they are likely going to be murdered, and many were.

PeakOutput · 01-06-2010 9:11am

Memnoch wrote: »

Hamas had no involvement in this incident. They are no doubt a deplorable group but you cannot use them as a bogey man to justify the murder of innocent civilians bringing aid to an impoverished and suffering population.

i said nothing of this incident i asked why egypt enforce the same or similar blockade on gaza?

bambooze · 01-06-2010 9:11am

Memnoch wrote: »

No, you're just pretending that cold blooded murder of innocent civillains is a-ok.

Wait no.. you're not doing that.

You're trying to paint innocent civilians as something else entirely so that they are dehumanised and their cold blooded murder can be justified and those responsible held to account.

I know which stance I consider more deplorable and which seems borne out of frustration at unbearable injustice.

You must be reading posts that I am not writing.. I am pointing out that him saying he wishes all the israelis broke their necks doesn't deserve a response and you accuse me of not being balanced so I post a statement showing what balance would like like when the other end of the scale is him wishing israelis were all killed.

You can try to twist my words all you want but I clearly did not wish for anyone to be killed, he did.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 01-06-2010 9:12am

bambooze wrote: »

Who says it happened before israelis boarded? Logically that is not the way it would happen.. simply doesn't pass the smell test.

It's pretty fcuking obvious, there's nobody on the ship, if the israelis boarded they must be fcuking ninjas as they can't be seen from any of the videos.

Did you look at the videos?

Logic... Your posts display none.

The videos are there, watch them. Or are you to dedicated to trolling here?

Gigiwagga · 01-06-2010 9:14am

People, people, for goodness sake why can't the Palestinians just go away already, clearly they are a nuisance and are blocking the progress of the most important nation state in the middle east...they are rabble and deserve no sympathy, they are a raggy people. Israel are the chosen ones...THE CHOSEN ONES...stand back people. The Israeli people don't need to justify anything they do because they are the chosen ones, they can kill with impunity and casual indifference because they are the chosen ones. Soon they will own all of Palestine when the extermination is complete, this is the will of God, and God has chosen them, it's not as if it's their fault, this is Gods fault.
When the Israeli Government have investigated this fully you will see, it was clearly not their fault, they had to defend themselves against the unworthy rabble. How dare anyone even suggest otherwise.

PeakOutput · 01-06-2010 9:14am

Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »

The videos are there, watch them. Or are you to dedicated to trolling here?

i have watched plenty of the videos and have not seen the one you are describing can you post it up for me?

the one iv seen were they say you can hear shots i heard none and it is in one small area of a big ship that shows one guy with a bandaged leg and a boat of soldiers coming up along the ship. there is no way to tell when this was

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:16am

PeakOutput wrote: »

show me the proof there was plenty of time to get video off the ship why didnt they get video of this actually happening off the ship?

More lies and spin.

The Israelis attacked at 3 am in the middle of the night, without warning. The journalists would have been un prepared and in the darkness there wouldn't have been sufficient lighting.

The Israelis were blocking mobile communication and this prevented the vast majority of people ringing anyone to really report what was happening.

One TV crew managed to get a small amount of live footage going in the MIDDLE of the attack and were soon shut down by the Israelis.

You keep asking for more video because you know it will never be released because the Israelis would have confisicated any damaging evidence. and I'm sure we will hear reports of this IF/when the reporters and journalists on board are released from illegal internment.

all the evidence points to these facts

the israelis boarded with non lethal force

Lies and PR spin. The Israelis attacked in the middle of the night, without any immediate warning. Even if they used non lethal force initially, the people shot at and flash banged didnt know that the bullets being fired at first would be non lethal.

they were met with potentially lethal force they werent expecting

BS. They wanted to provoke a reaction to justify the killing of the civilians to send a message to any other would be humanitarians that this is how Israel deals with people who try to bring aid to gaza.

yes the israeli videos are edited, so are the activists, there is spin coming from both sides people on both sides are blindly believing whatever the hell they want that reinforces their prejudices

There is no video from teh activists bar the small amount of live footage. There is no spin from the activists because they have been held without any communication with the outside world by the Israelis.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:18am

bambooze wrote: »

You must be reading posts that I am not writing.. I am pointing out that him saying he wishes all the israelis broke their necks doesn't deserve a response and you accuse me of not being balanced so I post a statement showing what balance would like like when the other end of the scale is him wishing israelis were all killed.

You can try to twist my words all you want but I clearly did not wish for anyone to be killed, he did.

Perhaps you did not read my post.

I'm referring to the COUNTLESS posts you've made the collective intent of which is as I stated...

No, you're just pretending that cold blooded murder of innocent civillains is a-ok.

Wait no.. you're not doing that.

You're trying to paint innocent civilians as something else entirely so that they are dehumanised and their cold blooded murder can be justified and those responsible held to account.

I know which stance I consider more deplorable and which seems borne out of frustration at unbearable injustice.

bambooze · 01-06-2010 9:20am

Memnoch wrote: »

There are countless interntional journalists reporting on the incident from Ashdod where the ships were taken. Why have NONE of these been allowed access to a SINGLE protester from the attacked ship?

Reporters will have all the access they want when they land - in such a hurry are you?

Really? Who is dealing with the IDF that indiscriminatorily killed innocent civilians?

You mean those "innocent civilians" wielding clubs and knives? Don't make me laugh.

Let's cut away the PR spin. Allowing time for the media attention to die down and the Israeli version of events repeatedly rammed down our throats the past 24+ hours to proliferate into mass consciousness.

Sure, keep telling yourself thats how it goes. The media will report everything they can find, no matter what israel says and this story will run for a good while yet.

Memnoch wrote: »

The fact that the Israelis fired first. As reported by the protesters on board BEFORE the Israelis blacked out all communication.

The fact that the HEAVILY edited ISRAELI footage only shows desperate people in fear for their lives after they've been shot at from above, believing they are likely going to be murdered, and many were.

Except thats a lie, but you choose to believe whatever fits your world view.

ejmaztec · 01-06-2010 9:23am

bambooze wrote: »

Well that would be a first, to be honest. Really I would disagree with that in this instance also. Israel is always slow to react on the PR front and by the time they do the PR damage is done, regardless of the actual truth.

Event the most adept PR people have their work cut out for them, when dealing with any situation handled by the Israeli military. This particular incident smacks of incompetence.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:24am

bambooze wrote: »

Reporters will have all the access they want when they land - in such a hurry are you?

Right, already 30+ hours since the attack and not a SINGLE reporter has been allowed to communicate with the outside world by the Israelis.

The Israelis are certainly in a hurry to get THEIR version of events everywhere while delaying any contrary reports from first hand accounts.

You mean those "innocent civilians" wielding clubs and knives? Don't make me laugh.

Yes, I mean innocent civillians who were fired upon in the middle of the night by a military force with a long track record of killing innocent civilians, journalists and even aid workers. Innocent civilians who thought they were going to be brutally executed and picked up whatever they could find to try desperately to defend themselves. Innocent civilans who were then cold bloodedly murdered by a regime that continues to act with impunity and disregard for humanitarian and international law.

Sure, keep telling yourself thats how it goes. The media will report everything they can find, no matter what israel says and this story will run for a good while yet.

Let's hope so. And if Israel REALLY has nothing to hide, lets see them allow an independent, international investigation into the event.

I'm willing to bet my house they won't. Are you?

PeakOutput · 01-06-2010 9:25am

Memnoch wrote: »

More lies and spin.

The Israelis attacked at 3 am in the middle of the night, without warning. The journalists would have been un prepared and in the darkness there wouldn't have been sufficient lighting.

there was plenty of warning there is no disupting the fact that they were repeatedly told by a warship to stop and they didnt

The Israelis were blocking mobile communication and this prevented the vast majority of people ringing anyone to really report what was happening.

iv seen two recorded reports from two different journalists and what looks like the same cameraman during the attack

You keep asking for more video because you know it will never be released because the Israelis would have confisicated any damaging evidence. and I'm sure we will hear reports of this IF/when the reporters and journalists on board are released from illegal internment.

im not asking for more video im asking for people to wait for the facts before jumping to conclusions, on both sides, automatically demonising the israelis for protecting their country is wrong as is automatically assuming they were right and can act with impunity

Even if they used non lethal force initially, the people shot at and flash banged didnt know that the bullets being fired at first would be non lethal.

the evidence so far shows no bullets were fired besides ones from a paintball gun that fires balls of pepper spray

if further evidence surfaces be it eyewitness accounts or the other then my position will change

There is no spin from the activists because they have been held without any communication with the outside world by the Israelis.

45 activists have been released and also there is plenty of spin coming from their organisations

there was a reuters reporter on the israeli ship do you think that he is being silenced without reuters making a massive deal about it?

what are the associated press saying? these are the people we need to rely on providing independant facts not the israelis or the activists

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:26am

bambooze wrote: »

Except thats a lie, but you choose to believe whatever fits your world view.

Fine, let there be an independent, international investigation to establish the facts once and for all.

You think the Israeli's will permit this?

bambooze · 01-06-2010 9:27am

Memnoch wrote: »

The journalists would have been un prepared and in the darkness there wouldn't have been sufficient lighting.

Are you kidding me?? The journos had days, even weeks to prepare and any journo worth his salt knows full well how to film at night.. hell any kid with a modern digicam these days can film at night. Also mobile sat phones of various types are quite common these days, particularly at sea. They all had plenty of time to report the news as it was happening.

Besides which the navy clearly and publicly warned the ships before the boarding - anyone not prepared after all that must have been seriously out of it.

Memnoch wrote: »

Perhaps you did not read my post.

I'm referring to the COUNTLESS posts you've made the collective intent of which is as I stated...

Then you should not have quoted that specific post. I'm no mind reader.

Dravokivich · 01-06-2010 9:31am

gurramok wrote: »

"said Israeli private channel 10 television. "

Yeh, totally impartial source there:rolleyes:

biko wrote: »

I'd like to get confirmation for a non controlled source before I believe anything the Israelis say. It could easily be the other way around.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israel-Commando-Raid-Global-Outrage-As-UN-Members-Call-For-Inquiry-Into-Flotilla-Aid-Raid/Article/201006115641326?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15641326_Israel_Commando_Raid%3A_Global_Outrage_As_UN_Members_Call_For_Inquiry_Into_Flotilla_Aid_Raid#comments

^
Video footage showing them being attacked as they boarded the ships...

Can't listen to it in work, so no idea what is being said over it.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:32am

PeakOutput wrote: »

there was plenty of warning there is no disupting the fact that they were repeatedly told by a warship to stop and they didnt

Warnings throughout the day are in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM the same as "We are coming aboard, we will meet resistance with deadly force."

If they had done this in the middle of the day, and announced there intentions loud and clear, this would not have happened. They WANTED a massacre.

im not asking for more video im asking for people to wait for the facts before jumping to conclusions, on both sides, automatically demonising the israelis for protecting their country is wrong as is automatically assuming they were right and can act with impunity

BS, don't pretend fairness and neutrality. Pretty much every single post you've made both here and on the politics forum have been in the same vein. To try and justify and minimise the Israeli actions. Not only that but you have shown UNQUESTIONING support for the Israeli version of events without a HINT of scepticism. Your claims therefore of seeing both sides of the story are a fabrication.

the evidence so far shows no bullets were fired besides ones from a paintball gun that fires balls of pepper spray

if further evidence surfaces be it eyewitness accounts or the other then my position will change

I've already explained several times why this evidence isn't available and probably never will be. The Israeli's blocked most of the communication and will have confisicated and destroyed any video/photographic evidence.

45 activists have been released and also there is plenty of spin coming from their organisations

there was a reuters reporter on the israeli ship do you think that he is being silenced without reuters making a massive deal about it?

what are the associated press saying? these are the people we need to rely on providing independant facts not the israelis or the activists

Here is what the BBC are saying

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10201165.stm

The campaigners insist the soldiers opened fire without any provocation.

Of the 679 surviving activists, who were brought to the Israeli port of Ashdod, only 50 agreed to be voluntarily deported and more than 30 are being treated in hospital for their injuries, reports the BBC's Wyre Davies in Jerusalem.

That means that almost 600 people, from several countries, are still being held in detention centres across Israel and are being questioned by the authorities.

Israel has imposed an information blackout, making it difficult to gather first-hand accounts from the campaigners.

So 50 have agreed to be voluntarily deported, yet there is no indication WHEN they will actually be released. The Israelis continue to hold them in limbo in order to prevent an alternative view point from being released for as long as possible.

Furthermore, we don't know if the rest that are being "questioned" have even been given the option to leave voluntarily.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:33am

Dravokivich wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israel-Commando-Raid-Global-Outrage-As-UN-Members-Call-For-Inquiry-Into-Flotilla-Aid-Raid/Article/201006115641326?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15641326_Israel_Commando_Raid%3A_Global_Outrage_As_UN_Members_Call_For_Inquiry_Into_Flotilla_Aid_Raid#comments

^
Video footage showing them being attacked as they boarded the ships...

Can't listen to it in work, so no idea what is being said over it.

Err didn't you read the original post?

This video footage has been edited and realised by the IDF it is NOT INDEPEDENT or non-controlled as the poster who requested the video asked for.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:34am

bambooze wrote: »

Then you should not have quoted that specific post. I'm no mind reader.

I thought it was pretty clear. And if it wasn't, it should be so now.

bambooze · 01-06-2010 9:36am

Memnoch wrote: »

So 50 have agreed to be voluntarily deported, yet there is no indication WHEN they will actually be released. The Israelis continue to hold them in limbo in order to prevent an alternative view point from being released for as long as possible.

Furthermore, we don't know if the rest that are being "questioned" have even been given the option to leave voluntarily.

They are already on flights heading home as already reported. The rest are being held by the prisons service and are being given access to lawyers and consular officials as also reported.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:37am

bambooze wrote: »

Are you kidding me?? The journos had days, even weeks to prepare and any journo worth his salt knows full well how to film at night.. hell any kid with a modern digicam these days can film at night. Also mobile sat phones of various types are quite common these days, particularly at sea. They all had plenty of time to report the news as it was happening.

Besides which the navy clearly and publicly warned the ships before the boarding - anyone not prepared after all that must have been seriously out of it.

How do you know they clearly and publicly warned them before boarding?

You are basing this on the EDITED ISRAELI video?

The protesters say they were shot without warning or provocation. I'm inclined to believe them. This was conveyed by those who could still communicate before the Israelis boarded.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:38am

bambooze wrote: »

They are already on flights heading home as already reported. The rest are being held by the prisons service and are being given access to lawyers and consular officials as also reported.

And yet we have not heard a SINGLE first hand account of the attack since the Israelis took control.

And the reason for this, according to the BBC is?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10201165.stm

Israel has imposed an information blackout, making it difficult to gather first-hand accounts from the campaigners.

Nothing to hide at all Israel... nothing to hide.

Wibbs · 01-06-2010 9:38am

bambooze wrote: »

How would that have made any difference? Did the people on board even know what side of the line they were on? Would they really have acted differently once on the israeli side? Pretty unlikely.

That's not the point though. The point is the IDF flouted international law and had no issue doing so.

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

Apparently iron bars, sticks, chairs etc etc are not deadly weapons, and in fact won't inflict serious harm or death upon the poor unfortunet on the receiving end!.

I agree. Utter bollox is the notion that you're going to lay there and take an iron bar beating or watch one of your mates take a beating without responding with force, deadly force.

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

With its oppression of the Kurdish people and occupation of Kurdish lands, not to mention the occupation of Northern Cyprus that Turkey has a neck like a jockies bollox with their whinging and sh*t stiring?.

I agree there too.

bambooze wrote: »

Says you, the arbiter of international and maritime law..

Strawman argument TBH. The fact is the arbiters of international and maritime law agree it was an illegal act. Then again so is the blockade, so is the land theft, so are any number of UN mandates that Israel has ignored or violated down the years. They really do have a shítty record on this front.

If it was any other nation? If we were talking about say Iran or Syria here? How long before the US would be clamouring for a military intervention? If in the last 50 years Iran had built up a huge military presence in the ME, including that old friend "weapons of mass destruction". Had increased it's borders and forced Jews into smaller and smaller enclaves, by stealing Jewish land and run an illegal blockade to starve out Jewish resistance. I mean Iran is getting it in the neck for its so called nuclear programme, yet they've signed the international non nuclear proliferation treaty. Israel has not. Indeed they will sign feck all when it comes to international law. Theyre high up on the definition list of a "rogue state". We seem to be very blinkered when its one of our mates, not so much when its not.

Memnoch wrote: »

Your responses blindly adulating the Israeli version of events seems no more balanced.

That's been my impression too TBH. As Ive said before I think that whole region needs to chill the hell out. One side is as bad as the other. I can understand why more in the west would support Israel. The Jews as a group have been hammered for centuries and we have some cllective guilt going on(rightfully). Plus they appear more like "us". A little western enclave surrounded by "mad mullahs". IMHO they have the capacity and have shown it often enough to be just as mad mullah like as their neighbours. The fundi Jews taking back their "promised land" are just as crazy, aggressive and intransigent as the other side screaming "god is great" down the road. They just have better weapons. On both sides there are moderates and those seeking a balanced peace, but again and again they're being drowned out by the loonies. I fear its getting worse not better too.

Gigiwagga · 01-06-2010 9:40am

bambooze wrote: »

You mean those "innocent civilians" wielding clubs and knives? Don't make me laugh.

Yes innocent civilians indeed, since when did primitive rabble with clubs and knives deserve justice. Knives on ships can only mean one thing, weapons to murder innocent Israeli soldiers. People reduced to using such weapons don't deserve international sympathy. The international community should accept Gods will and give Israel what remains of Palestine. God had decided this a long time ago. God has spoken and his will must be done.
God is on Israel's side, Obama is on Israel's side. Might is on Israel's side.
This truly is their destiny, this is the word of God.

Knives and clubs indeed.

bambooze · 01-06-2010 9:42am

Memnoch wrote: »

How do you know they clearly and publicly warned them before boarding?

You are basing this on the EDITED ISRAELI video?

Well you choose not to believe anything israel says so there's not much point arguing over that. However a reuters had people on the navy vessel so they can dispute it if its false.. so far I hear no such dispute.

The protesters say they were shot without warning or provocation. I'm inclined to believe them. This was conveyed by those who could still communicate before the Israelis boarded.

The protesters can no more be trusted as impartial than (in your opinion) the israelis.

PeakOutput · 01-06-2010 9:42am

Memnoch wrote: »

BS, don't pretend fairness and neutrality. Pretty much every single post you've made both here and on the politics forum have been in the same vein. To try and justify and minimise the Israeli actions. Not only that but you have shown UNQUESTIONING support for the Israeli version of events without a HINT of scepticism. Your claims therefore of seeing both sides of the story are a fabrication.

ah ye sure you tell me what im thinking you know it all sure.

read my posts in both threads (mainly this one) from the begining then quote entire pots you fell backs up your assertion

Wibbs · 01-06-2010 9:46am

Memnoch wrote: »

If they had done this in the middle of the day, and announced there intentions loud and clear, this would not have happened. They WANTED a massacre.

I dont agree with this. I think they simply wanted to show who was boss, that international law means nada to them and wanted to show they would stop any blockade runner and that went horribly wrong.

BS, don't pretend fairness and neutrality. Pretty much every single post you've made both here and on the politics forum have been in the same vein. To try and justify and minimise the Israeli actions. Not only that but you have shown UNQUESTIONING support for the Israeli version of events without a HINT of scepticism. Your claims therefore of seeing both sides of the story are a fabrication.

Yea to the degree that I should be reading this in the conspiracy forum.

The Israeli rep on pat kenny last night was really pushing the boat out(no pun). I mean claiming they intercepted Al Qaeda communications from the ships. I mean come on. It was getting laughable. Though TBH I felt sorry for her. Her english was way better than my Hebrew, but she didnt have enough spoken english to fight her corner. Lamb to the slaughter TBH.

Memnoch · 01-06-2010 9:49am

bambooze wrote: »

Well you choose not to believe anything israel says so there's not much point arguing over that. However a reuters had people on the navy vessel so they can dispute it if its false.. so far I hear no such dispute.

Why should ANYONE believe a word that Israel says on this incident when they do not allow INTERNTAIONTAL reporters ANY access? As they have done for a couple of years now?

Perhaps if the Israelis didn't insist, through their actions, time and time again on only THEIR version of events being told, people would be more inclined to give them more weight.

The protesters can no more be trusted as impartial than (in your opinion) the israelis.

How many international laws have the protesters broken?

How many innocent civilians, aid workers and journalists have the protesters shot and killed with cold blood.

How many of the protesters have ignored the Geneva convention to inflict collective punishment on a CIVILIAN population using the actions of a dictatorial regime to justify this.

How many of the protesters attacked a ship carrying only humanitarian aid in international waters killing 19 people and kidnapping the rest?

How many of the protesters forged passports from numerous western countries in order to commit murder in Dubai?

Forgive me if I don't give much credence to the one-sided Israel version considering their recent track record.

Wibbs · 01-06-2010 9:49am

bambooze wrote: »

The protesters can no more be trusted as impartial than (in your opinion) the israelis.

If you had left out the (in your opinion) part I would have more faith in your position. I read someone like Peakoutput who would be "on your side" as it were, but he is nowhere near as blinkered. To an almost farcical degree. If you were defending the Palestinians here I would be defo thinking political plant.

Aid Floatillas Attacked

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