Aid Floatillas Attacked

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

The fact is the arbiters of international and maritime law agree it was an illegal act.

I wasn't aware there had been any official ruling on this matter yet. Lots of quotes from various legal agreements posted on the net that are being used by both sides to justify either sides position but that doesn't really count.

Then again so is the blockade, so is the land theft, so are any number of UN mandates that Israel has ignored or violated down the years. They really do have a shítty record on this front.

Well the UN doesn't have the best track record either.. something like 29 arab or muslim member states who always initiate condemnations of israel.. if it wasnt for the US veto they'd have buried israel years ago.

Memnoch

PeakOutput wrote: »

ah ye sure you tell me what im thinking you know it all sure.

read my posts in both threads (mainly this one) from the begining then quote entire pots you fell backs up your assertion

I don't need to, I've read enough of your posts.

I have a better idea. Why don't you give us an example or two of where you've been skeptical of the Israeli version of events in support of your so called neutrality.

Memnoch

Wibbs wrote: »

I dont agree with this. I think they simply wanted to show who was boss, that international law means nada to them and wanted to show they would stop any blockade runner and that went horribly wrong.

Right, they wanted to show who was boss. And they did didn't they? They killed 19 people and will get away scott free with it as they always have.

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

If you had left out the (in your opinion) part I would have more faith in your position. I read someone like Peakoutput who would be "on your side" as it were, but he is nowhere near as blinkered. To an almost farcical degree. If you were defending the Palestinians here I would be defo thinking political plant.

Well I am after all posting my opinion based on the facts available so far as I see them and just clarifying that it's his opinion that israel can't be trusted, not mine. Or maybe I should say it's my opinion that it's his opinion that israel can't be trusted.

karma_

Says a lot about the Man (or Woman) whether he stands up for the bullied, or the bully.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

I wasn't aware there had been any official ruling on this matter yet. Lots of quotes from various legal agreements posted on the net that are being used by both sides to justify either sides position but that doesn't really count.


Well the UN doesn't have the best track record either.. something like 29 arab or muslim member states who always initiate condemnations of israel.. if it wasnt for the US veto they'd have buried israel years ago.

There will never be an official legal ruling because the US will veto it in the UN security council as they have ALWAYS done.

Right, so the arab states initiate condemnation and EVERYONE ELSE just GOES along apart from the US who are the ONLY impartial party in all of this right?

France, Germany, UK, clearly in the pockets of the arab states, not the US though.

Here's the non PR version. The US has repeatedly blocked sanction against Israeli war crimes allowing Israel to commit acts with impunity to the point where it is as bad a regime as that of Apartheid South Africa.

I also notice that you have not agreed with or backed my call for an INDEPENDENT, international investigation of the event. So much for your so called lack of bias.

doncarlos

I find it shocking that they are still people coming on here defending Israel's actions on this. Almost every nation on earth has condemed this. When was the last time the EU states, Russia and China agreed on something that was happening in the Middle East? That in itself should suggest something

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

I also notice that you have not agreed with or backed my call for an INDEPENDENT, international investigation of the event. So much for your so called lack of bias.

I am certainly in favour of an impartial international investigation, it goes without saying. Why would I oppose such a thing? Being pro-israel does not mean anti-truth, it means not blindly accepting every attack on israel as justified, not believing its always israels fault just because I read it on the intarweb.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

I find it shocking that they are still people coming on here defending Israel's actions on this. Almost every nation on earth has condemed this.

Which is pretty much par for the course - condemn israel BEFORE any actual investigation. Its the political equivalent of shoot first, ask questions later.

PeakOutput

Memnoch wrote: »

Why should ANYONE believe a word that Israel says on this incident when they do not allow INTERNTAIONTAL reporters ANY access? As they have done for a couple of years now?

Perhaps if the Israelis didn't insist, through their actions, time and time again on only THEIR version of events being told, people would be more inclined to give them more weight.



How many international laws have the protesters broken?

How many innocent civilians, aid workers and journalists have the protesters shot and killed with cold blood.

How many of the protesters have ignored the Geneva convention to inflict collective punishment on a CIVILIAN population using the actions of a dictatorial regime to justify this.

How many of the protesters attacked a ship carrying only humanitarian aid in international waters killing 19 people and kidnapping the rest?

How many of the protesters forged passports from numerous western countries in order to commit murder in Dubai?

Forgive me if I don't give much credence to the one-sided Israel version considering their recent track record.

you see thats the problem you dont get to walk into a tigers cage and dry foul when he attacks you.

israel makes it quite clear it dosnt follow certain international laws and it hasnt signed up to some of them so there is no excuse for not being aware of this. if im an anti drug activists i dont get to go to amsterdam and act outraged at the coffee shops because i had no idea they were there

everyone knows israels record, everyone knows they dont give a ****, some people know that they have relatively good reasons for their actions(compared to say iran or north korea) and are a completely normal country of normal people (iv met a few israelis and have deliberately not brought up politics with them and they are completely normal)in extraordinary circumstances(imo)

a comparison i just thought of is that every white south african iv met has been pretty ****ing racist, if you take that one flaw out of their character they are normal people, they are racist because their country is in pretty extraordinary circumstances and if you heard some of their stories(in isolation) you would agree with them

so in israels opinion what they are doing is to protect their people, it dosnt matter that this was an aid ship it was a ship trying to cross the blockade. they do not allow this to happen no matter what you or i or the un(an impotent ****ing organisation if i ever there was one) say they do not let this happen. so what do we(and the activists) do instead of looking at the issues and trying to solve them one by one from the start we give out to them about it like a narky parent who sees their kid coming home covered in mud instead of asking what happened.

the only way for their to be progress is to respect the positions from both sides

the problem for israel is the attacks, stop the attacks

then show there is a lasting peace

then force israel to sit down and negotiate as they no longer have the attacks to fall back on as an excuse for every action.

none of this is going to happen with hamas in charge anywhere and none of this is going to happen while people from every corner of the world stick their oars in and keeps telling israel they have to be stopped cause all they hear is 'we wont let you protect yourself, we wont let you protect yourself'

/rant im off to the airport my next post will hopefully be from the us of a woop woop

edit; heres one for ya from i think my second post on this thread i was asking questions in this post aswell

PeakOutput wrote: »

im undecided on this particular incident and up to 19 ppl dead sounds like a massive over reaction but it annoys me when people jump to conclusions either way and the majority jump to the conclusion that israelis the bad guy no matter what

i also said somewhere along the way that the more evidene that comes out the harder it is to support the activists

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

Its the political equivalent of shoot first, ask questions later.

Nice analogy! Sounds much like what is being reported happened on the floatillas

karma_

PeakOutput wrote: »

you see thats the problem you dont get to walk into a tigers cage and dry foul when he attacks you.

israel makes it quite clear it dosnt follow certain international laws and it hasnt signed up to some of them so there is no excuse for not being aware of this. if im an anti drug activists i dont get to go to amsterdam and act outraged at the coffee shops because i had no idea they were there

everyone knows israels record, everyone knows they dont give a ****, some people know that they have relatively good reasons for their actions(compared to say iran or north korea) and are a completely normal country of normal people (iv met a few israelis and have deliberately not brought up politics with them and they are completely normal)in extraordinary circumstances(imo)

a comparison i just thought of is that every white south african iv met has been pretty ****ing racist, if you take that one flaw out of their character they are normal people, they are racist because their country is in pretty extraordinary circumstances and if you heard some of their stories(in isolation) you would agree with them

so in israels opinion what they are doing is to protect their people, it dosnt matter that this was an aid ship it was a ship trying to cross the blockade. they do not allow this to happen no matter what you or i or the un(an impotent ****ing organisation if i ever there was one) say they do not let this happen. so what do we(and the activists) do instead of looking at the issues and trying to solve them one by one from the start we give out to them about it like a narky parent who sees their kid coming home covered in mud instead of asking what happened.

the only way for their to be progress is to respect the positions from both sides

the problem for israel is the attacks, stop the attacks

then show there is a lasting peace

then force israel to sit down and negotiate as they no longer have the attacks to fall back on as an excuse for every action.

none of this is going to happen with hamas in charge anywhere and none of this is going to happen while people from every corner of the world stick their oars in and keeps telling israel they have to be stopped cause all they hear is 'we wont let you protect yourself, we wont let you protect yourself'

/rant im off to the airport my next post will hopefully be from the us of a woop woop

aye, nothing like killing a few civilians to protect the 'people'.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

Which is pretty much par for the course - condemn israel BEFORE any actual investigation. Its the political equivalent of shoot first, ask questions later.

What investigation.The Israelis no longer allow reporters access to Gaza. They've even killed reporters trying to uncover their crimes.

If the Israelis allowed unlimited and unrestricted access and independent investigation of the incidents concerned perhaps people would be more inclined to listen to their version of events.

Also the fact that they repeatedly flout international law.

Gigiwagga

bambooze wrote: »

Which is pretty much par for the course - condemn israel BEFORE any actual investigation. Its the political equivalent of shoot first, ask questions later.

Soo right, typical of everyone else, shoot first, ask questions later. Israel are above all that nonsense. Who said anything about asking questions later, Israel don't waste their time with such trivia. God has spoken. What is International Law compared to Gods Will. Israelis are the chosen ones, international law can go to hell.

ejmaztec

Each time Israel is in the news, and a thread kicks off on Boards, a brand new poster arrives on the block to deny that Israel has done anything wrong.

doncarlos

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Soo right, typical of everyone else,

Yes EVERY government in the world is wrong and Israel are right (The US have stayed quiet)

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

you see thats the problem you dont get to walk into a tigers cage and dry foul when he attacks you.

Israel is run by people, not tigers, who are incapable of rationality. The Israeli's made there choice, and now they look as guilty as it gets. They have no one to blame but themselves.

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel makes it quite clear it dosnt follow certain international laws and it hasnt signed up to some of them so there is no excuse for not being aware of this. if im an anti drug activists i dont get to go to amsterdam and act outraged at the coffee shops because i had no idea they were there

So if Hamas wants to ignore certain law, than that is fine and dandy then? Honestly, if Israel wants to ignore International law, then they need to be sanction plain and simple.

PeakOutput wrote: »

everyone knows israels record, everyone knows they dont give a ****, some people know that they have relatively good reasons for their actions(compared to say iran or north korea) and are a completely normal country of normal people (iv met a few israelis and have deliberately not brought up politics with them and they are completely normal)in extraordinary circumstances(imo)

I could care less. Just, because a murderer is known to kill people, doesn't make it ok for them to do so. Israel engaged in piracy, and are now reaping what they sow.

PeakOutput wrote: »

a comparison i just thought of is that every white south african iv met has been pretty ****ing racist, if you take that one flaw out of their character they are normal people, they are racist because their country is in pretty extraordinary circumstances and if you heard some of their stories(in isolation) you would agree with them

There is no excuse for racism, from Israeli's or from the Palestinians. I could care less about anyones excuses. Racism is racism.

PeakOutput wrote: »

so in israels opinion what they are doing is to protect their people, it dosnt matter that this was an aid ship it was a ship trying to cross the blockade. they do not allow this to happen no matter what you or i or the un(an impotent ****ing organisation if i ever there was one) say they do not let this happen. so what do we(and the activists) do instead of looking at the issues and trying to solve them one by one from the start we give out to them about it like a narky parent who sees their kid coming home covered in mud instead of asking what happened.

No, what we have is Israel engaging in a act of piracy, and as such they are being judged pretty badly for there murderous actions.

PeakOutput wrote: »

the only way for their to be progress is to respect the positions from both sides

No arguement there.

PeakOutput wrote: »

the problem for israel is the attacks, stop the attacks

Yes, Palestinians needs to stop there violence and Israel needs to end there sieges, colonizations, imprisoning 1000s without trial, and attacks on Palestinians.

PeakOutput wrote: »

then show there is a lasting peace

then force israel to sit down and negotiate as they no longer have the attacks to fall back on as an excuse for every action.

For there to be a lasting peace Israel needs to stop its violence, expecting one side to do so is nothing short of absurdity.

PeakOutput wrote: »

none of this is going to happen with hamas in charge anywhere and none of this is going to happen while people from every corner of the world stick their oars in and keeps telling israel they have to be stopped cause all they hear is 'we wont let you protect yourself, we wont let you protect yourself'

None of this will happen, as long as Israel continues it violence as well. You are clearly ignoring all Israels violence, and expecting only one side to stop. This is nonsense, both sides need to stop.

PeakOutput wrote: »

/rant im off to the airport my next post will hopefully be from the us of a woop woop

edit; heres one for ya from i think my second post on this thread i was asking questions in this post aswell

i also said somewhere along the way that the more evidene that comes out the harder it is to support the activists

It doesn't matter what happened Israel had no right to be on the boat in the first place, and as such are in the wrong, and the IDFs video's are evidence of nothing, as they have imposed a media blackout on the other side of the story, and they are also well known liars, and as such can't be trusted.

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

What investigation.The Israelis no longer allow reporters access to Gaza. They've even killed reporters trying to uncover their crimes.

This incident did not happen in gaza so whether or not reporters are allowed in gaza is irelevant. Besides which its really not difficult for reporters to get into gaza.. after all, what is a reporter these days? Anyone with a blog or a twitter account can report the news.

If the Israelis allowed unlimited and unrestricted access and independent investigation of the incidents concerned perhaps people would be more inclined to listen to their version of events.

Also the fact that they repeatedly flout international law.

You're blaming israel for blocking an investigation that didn't even start yet? Takes a little time for the UN or EU or some other international organisation to actually start an investigation. I'm guessing they dont have a team on standby ready to swing through the windows SAS style to investigate whatever, whenever.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

This incident did not happen in gaza so whether or not reporters are allowed in gaza is irelevant. Besides which its really not difficult for reporters to get into gaza.. after all, what is a reporter these days? Anyone with a blog or a twitter account can report the news.

Israel hasn't let the other side tell its story. There is a media black out regarding there piracy against the floatilla.

bambooze wrote: »

You're blaming israel for blocking an investigation that didn't even start yet? Takes a little time for the UN or EU or some other international organisation to actually start an investigation. I'm guessing they dont have a team on standby ready to swing through the windows SAS style to investigate whatever, whenever.

The IDF investigations are well known to be worthless, and Israel will ignore investigations from the UN, and various Human Rights groups, like the normally do.

Its is really rather simple, Israel had no right to board that boat in International waters, so they are guilty as hell in this instance imho.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

Yes EVERY government in the world is wrong and Israel are right (The US have stayed quiet)

Well, has there been an investigation yet? Or has israel just been tried & convicted in the court of public opinion again?

The reality seems to be that yet again the international community has jumped up to condemn israel BEFORE any investigation, BEFORE any trial, BEFORE seeing any actual evidence besides a few youtube vids (which actually show extreme violence by the protesters).

So where is the balance? Where is the fairness?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

This incident did not happen in gaza

Exactly, so how can you defend the piracy, murder and kidnap of foreign nationals in International waters then?

bambooze

ejmaztec wrote: »

Each time Israel is in the news, and a thread kicks off on Boards, a brand new poster arrives on the block to deny that Israel has done anything wrong.

Perhaps because someone previously just a lurker was finally motivated to join in the discussion to right a perceived wrong? To add some balance to the usual israel slanging fest?

Or are you all just paranoid conspiracy nuts believing that mossad agents spend their time hanging out on boards.ie

Morlar

ejmaztec wrote: »

Each time Israel is in the news, and a thread kicks off on Boards, a brand new poster arrives on the block to deny that Israel has done anything wrong.

There are all sorts of advocacy groups on the web who organise this. There was even one that sent rss updates to 'volunteers' to alert them of bad words being uttered on internet forums about israel, said volunteers were to sign up on random internet boards to counter anything critical. Here is one of them;

http://giyus.org/

digme

bambooze wrote: »

Perhaps because someone previously just a lurker was finally motivated to join in the discussion to right a perceived wrong? To add some balance to the usual israel slanging fest?

Or are you all just paranoid conspiracy nuts believing that mossad agents spend their time hanging out on boards.ie

megaphone id say run along now

McCalvin

ejmaztec wrote: »

Each time Israel is in the news, and a thread kicks off on Boards, a brand new poster arrives on the block to deny that Israel has done anything wrong.

I'm just noticing this reading through the politics threads too.

I for one can't see how anyone can justify the actions of the IDF, yet there are a very small minority here posting hard and fast, staunchly defending what I and the vast majority of people here believe to be indefensible.

doncarlos

Morlar wrote: »

There are all sorts of advocacy groups on the web who organise this. There was even one that sent rss updates to 'volunteers' to alert them of bad words being uttered on internet forums about israel, said volunteers were to sign up on random internet boards to counter anything critical. Here is one of them;

http://giyus.org/

Yeah you have to have your suspicions when someone signs up on the day of the murders, and EVERY one of their posts are blindly defending the Israelites.

Memnoch

PeakOutput wrote: »

you see thats the problem you dont get to walk into a tigers cage and dry foul when he attacks you.

israel makes it quite clear it dosnt follow certain international laws and it hasnt signed up to some of them so there is no excuse for not being aware of this. if im an anti drug activists i dont get to go to amsterdam and act outraged at the coffee shops because i had no idea they were there

So Israel don't follow international law and that makes it okay for them to shoot innocent civilians. Or is it the fault of innocent civilians that the Israelis shot them?

everyone knows israels record, everyone knows they dont give a ****, some people know that they have relatively good reasons for their actions(compared to say iran or north korea) and are a completely normal country of normal people (iv met a few israelis and have deliberately not brought up politics with them and they are completely normal)in extraordinary circumstances(imo)

There is never any justification for the mistreatment or murder of civilians, journalists and aid workers. Their claims of self-defence in the current situation are no more substantive than that of NK or Iran. Also, please try to separate the Israeli PEOPLE, who I'm sure are perfectly normal, from the Israeli GOVERNMENT that has committed numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity in breach of international law.

a comparison i just thought of is that every white south african iv met has been pretty ****ing racist, if you take that one flaw out of their character they are normal people, they are racist because their country is in pretty extraordinary circumstances and if you heard some of their stories(in isolation) you would agree with them

So in order to justify Israeli apartheid you are now trying to excuse/apologise for/minimise the severity of apartheid south africa and racism?

so in israels opinion what they are doing is to protect their people, it dosnt matter that this was an aid ship it was a ship trying to cross the blockade.

It might not matter to you. But it matters to me. It matters to me that the 1.5 million people in gaza live in conditions worse than Mount Joy. It matters to me that people are dying because they cannot get clean water since Israel will not allow the construction of water purification planets after they destroyed them in 2009. It matters to me that children are dying from starvation and that Israeli are ONLY allowing less than a quarter of the aid that the UN says the people of gaza need just to survive.

So it matters to me that this was an aid ship, carrying much needed supplies for people desperately in need who have done no wrong. (or are you going to jump to conclusions about the collective guilt of every man, woman and child due to the actions of Hamas?)

they do not allow this to happen no matter what you or i or the un(an impotent ****ing organisation if i ever there was one) say they do not let this happen.

And this is illegal and criminal and should not be tolerated.

so what do we(and the activists) do instead of looking at the issues and trying to solve them one by one from the start we give out to them about it like a narky parent who sees their kid coming home covered in mud instead of asking what happened.

What? Re-read this again. Does this really make sense/seem sensible to you? A narky parent? Child covering in mud? You are beautifully displaying your lack of bias for EVERYONE to see here.

the only way for their to be progress is to respect the positions from both sides

There is no respect for an illegal position that contravenes human rights.

the problem for israel is the attacks, stop the attacks

Even if this were true, the fourth geneva convention specifically forbids collective punishment of civilians.

then show there is a lasting peace

then force israel to sit down and negotiate as they no longer have the attacks to fall back on as an excuse for every action.

Typical apologist Israeli response. The Israelis have shown ZERO interest in peace. They have starved and killed innocent people. They continue to take more territory and build illegal settlements. Israel has to stop its illegal actions before it can have any expectation of peace.

none of this is going to happen with hamas in charge anywhere and none of this is going to happen while people from every corner of the world stick their oars in and keeps telling israel they have to be stopped cause all they hear is 'we wont let you protect yourself, we wont let you protect yourself'

The world is not responsible for Israeli paranoia. The world needs to act decisively and sanction Israel to force it to behave responsibilty.

edit; heres one for ya from i think my second post on this thread i was asking questions in this post aswell :

Originally Posted by PeakOutput
im undecided on this particular incident and up to 19 ppl dead sounds like a massive over reaction but it annoys me when people jump to conclusions either way and the majority jump to the conclusion that israelis the bad guy no matter what

Wow and this is your example that proves you've been equally sceptical of the Israeli position and actions? It's actually no different to your recent claim of lack of bias. The fact that you can't see that, says everything really.

Enjoy your flight.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

Israel hasn't let the other side tell its story. There is a media black out regarding there piracy against the floatilla.

Israel can't stop anyone telling their story, they wont all be shipped off to guantanamo you know.

The IDF investigations are well known to be worthless, and Israel will ignore investigations from the UN, and various Human Rights groups, like the normally do.

We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet the whole world still condemns israel anyway.

Its is really rather simple, Israel had no right to board that boat in International waters, so they are guilty as hell in this instance imho.

Yes that's your opinion, which doesn't mean you are correct on the matter of international law.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

Israel can't stop anyone telling their story, they wont all be shipped off to guantanamo you know.




We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet the whole world still condemns israel anyway.



Yes that's your opinion, which doesn't mean you are correct on the matter of international law.

I'm sorry but you have no credibility left with me and I'll be ignoring your posts henceforth.

digme

bambooze wrote: »

We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet the whole world still condemns israel anyway.

isreal is the perhaps the most hated country on earth,welcome to the real world