Aid Floatillas Attacked

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet the whole world still condemns israel anyway.

If armed Palestinians boarded an Israeli ship on international waters killed 19 of the crew and forced the ship to Gaza where the rest of the crew was detained. Would YOU defend the Palestinians and say we should wait for a potential trial? I dare you to respond to this post

digme

doncarlos wrote: »

If armed Palestinians boarded an Israeli ship on international waters killed 19 of the crew and forced the ship to Gaza where the rest of the crew was detained. Would YOU defend the Palestinians and say we should wait for a potential trial? I dare you to respond to this post

but but but

oh insert magic word, "anti semite" .... etc etc

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

I'm sorry but you have no credibility left with me and I'll be ignoring your posts henceforth.

Boo hoo. So I post actual facts and thats your response? lol

Which part of these three statements is in any way false?

Israel can't stop anyone telling their story, they wont all be shipped off to guantanamo you know.

Nope, every person arrested will be released and all will have consular and legal representation and they can sing like canaries all they want and guantanamo is nothing to do with israel anyway.

We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet the whole world still condemns israel anyway.

Nope, there has been no official international investigation yet at all, none, zip, diddly squat. There is no contest here.

Yes that's your opinion, which doesn't mean you are correct on the matter of international law.

Again, no contest - it was his opinion which he even stated as such with "imho".

So now you're just being petty.

digme

:rolleyes:

ejmaztec

bambooze wrote: »

Perhaps because someone previously just a lurker was finally motivated to join in the discussion to right a perceived wrong? To add some balance to the usual israel slanging fest?

Or are you all just paranoid conspiracy nuts believing that mossad agents spend their time hanging out on boards.ie

I think that we're just not stupid enough to fall for bullsh1t from the propaganda machine.:P

You mentioned balance and fairness in a previous post, and I believe that the Israeli agenda would be best served by trying these out.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

bambooze wrote: »

Israel can't stop anyone telling their story, they wont all be shipped off to guantanamo you know.




We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet the whole world still condemns israel anyway.



Yes that's your opinion, which doesn't mean you are correct on the matter of international law.

That's fact actually, but again, you completely ignored the link previously posted by another poster that stated the laws of international waters... Why do you chose to ignore all the information at hand?

Here's another for ya,

Your opinions are wrong, FACT! :pac:

PeakOutput

wes wrote: »

Israel is run by people, not tigers, who are incapable of rationality. The Israeli's made there choice, and now they look as guilty as it gets. They have no one to blame but themselves.



So if Hamas wants to ignore certain law, than that is fine and dandy then? Honestly, if Israel wants to ignore International law, then they need to be sanction plain and simple.



I could care less. Just, because a murderer is known to kill people, doesn't make it ok for them to do so. Israel engaged in piracy, and are now reaping what they sow.



There is no excuse for racism, from Israeli's or from the Palestinians. I could care less about anyones excuses. Racism is racism.



No, what we have is Israel engaging in a act of piracy, and as such they are being judged pretty badly for there murderous actions.



No arguement there.



Yes, Palestinians needs to stop there violence and Israel needs to end there sieges, colonizations, imprisoning 1000s without trial, and attacks on Palestinians.



For there to be a lasting peace Israel needs to stop its violence, expecting one side to do so is nothing short of absurdity.



None of this will happen, as long as Israel continues it violence as well. You are clearly ignoring all Israels violence, and expecting only one side to stop. This is nonsense, both sides need to stop.



It doesn't matter what happened Israel had no right to be on the boat in the first place, and as such are in the wrong, and the IDFs video's are evidence of nothing, as they have imposed a media blackout on the other side of the story, and they are also well known liars, and as such can't be trusted.

grand

Memnoch wrote: »

So Israel don't follow international law and that makes it okay for them to shoot innocent civilians. Or is it the fault of innocent civilians that the Israelis shot them?


There is never any justification for the mistreatment or murder of civilians, journalists and aid workers. Their claims of self-defence in the current situation are no more substantive than that of NK or Iran. Also, please try to separate the Israeli PEOPLE, who I'm sure are perfectly normal, from the Israeli GOVERNMENT that has committed numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity in breach of international law.



So in order to justify Israeli apartheid you are now trying to excuse/apologise for/minimise the severity of apartheid south africa and racism?



It might not matter to you. But it matters to me. It matters to me that the 1.5 million people in gaza live in conditions worse than Mount Joy. It matters to me that people are dying because they cannot get clean water since Israel will not allow the construction of water purification planets after they destroyed them in 2009. It matters to me that children are dying from starvation and that Israeli are ONLY allowing less than a quarter of the aid that the UN says the people of gaza need just to survive.

So it matters to me that this was an aid ship, carrying much needed supplies for people desperately in need who have done no wrong. (or are you going to jump to conclusions about the collective guilt of every man, woman and child due to the actions of Hamas?)



And this is illegal and criminal and should not be tolerated.



What? Re-read this again. Does this really make sense/seem sensible to you? A narky parent? Child covering in mud? You are beautifully displaying your lack of bias for EVERYONE to see here.


There is no respect for an illegal position that contravenes human rights.


Even if this were true, the fourth geneva convention specifically forbids collective punishment of civilians.



Typical apologist Israeli response. The Israelis have shown ZERO interest in peace. They have starved and killed innocent people. They continue to take more territory and build illegal settlements. Israel has to stop its illegal actions before it can have any expectation of peace.



The world is not responsible for Israeli paranoia. The world needs to act decisively and sanction Israel to force it to behave responsibilty.



Wow and this is your example that proves you've been equally sceptical of the Israeli position and actions? It's actually no different to your recent claim of lack of bias. The fact that you can't see that, says everything really.

Enjoy your flight.

ill try

its been fun

bambooze

Edwin Calm Wife wrote: »

That's fact actually, but again, you completely ignored the link previously posted by another poster that stated the laws of international waters... Why do you chose to ignore all the information at hand?

Here's another for ya,

Your opinions are wrong, FACT! :pac:

Because I also posted some extract from international law earlier in this thread which suggested that israel was within its rights to act against the ship. So as I also said before, both sides are posting legal crap found on the net to justify both positions but only an actual court of law can decide who was in the right on the matter of international law.

As for my opinion well you know what they say about everyone having one..

Wibbs

Maybe but Arabs are semites too.

bambooze wrote:

Nope, every person arrested will be released and all will have consular and legal representation and they can sing like canaries all they want and guantanamo is nothing to do with israel anyway.

Not quite. Various governments have had to threaten Israel to get access to their citizens. Including our own. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/martin-calls-on-israel-to-release-irish-citizens-immediately-459913.html#ixzz0pahCAawr "Mr Martin said: I met the Israeli Ambassador last evening and made clear that the Irish Government expects the immediate and unconditional release of all the Irish citizens detained. The seven individuals concerned did not enter Israel illegally; rather they were essentially seized from international waters, taken into Israel and asked to sign documents confirming that they entered illegally. This is simply not acceptable.” and "Mr Martin also said he was dissatisfied with the Israeli government’s failure to allow Ireland's Ambassador and Embassy in Tel Aviv have full consular access to the Irish citizens detained.

He said: "This failure to provide such access represents a clear breach of the Vienna Conventions. I have now been informed that our Ambassador and officers from the Embassy in Tel Aviv will be allowed carry out visits to the Irish citizens detained during the course of the day. I will continue to press for full consular access being allowed, as is provided for under international law." Your contention that they had consular access and were being immediately being sent back on planes is nonsense.

Nope, there has been no official international investigation yet at all, none, zip, diddly squat. There is no contest here.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see if Israel allows full disclosure to any international investigation. Going on previous I wouldnt hold our collective breaths.

Again, no contest - it was his opinion which he even stated as such with "imho".

Look up the laws governing international waters. Theyre all over the web. Make up your own mind. I would suggest everyone does this though I suspect you'll make up your own mind through the pro Israeli prism.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

will have consular and legal representation and they can sing like canaries all they want and guantanamo is nothing to do with israel anyway.

Really??? That's strange because Irish citizens detained haven't been given full consular access even though it's part of the Geneva convention. They were also force to sign documents saying they entered Israel illegally even though they were kidnapped at gunpoint on international waters.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0601/mideast.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gaza-activist-to-be-sent-back-to-ireland-459932.html

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite. Various governments have had to threaten Israel to get access to their citizens.

Well I dont know the specifics, just what I read in the news.

Your contention that they had consular access and were being immediately being sent back on planes is nonsense.

Thats not quite what I said - I said 45 or so were already sent back, the rest are being held by the prison service and are being given legal & consular access. The exact timelines are not something I know anything about.

Look up the laws governing international waters. Theyre all over the web. Make up your own mind. I would suggest everyone does this though I suspect you'll make up your own mind through the pro Israeli prism.

I did and as I mentioned previously I have posted about that before.. it appears from that, that israel was within its rights to act against this ship but I am not a lawyer and as I said, only the international courts can rule on that.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

Really??? That's strange because Irish citizens detained haven't been given full consular access even though it's part of the Geneva convention.

Well they'll live, even if things didn't move quite as fast as they should have. At most they'll have a story to tell in the pub tomorrow. Some people are not so fortunate like the israeli held in gaza for several years with NO access to consular, legal, red cross, family or any outside body.. talk to hamas about the geneva convention.

Nodin

Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »

With its oppression of the Kurdish people and occupation of Kurdish lands, not to mention the occupation of Northern Cyprus that Turkey has a neck like a jockies bollox with their whinging and sh*t stiring?.

That bothers you, yet the treatment of the Palestinians doesn't?

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

you see thats the problem you dont get to walk into a tigers cage and dry foul when (.......)is to support the activists

You might get back to me on this....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66171727&postcount=778

bambooze

Nodin wrote: »

That bothers you, yet the treatment of the Palestinians doesn't?

How often do you see the UN condemning Turkey for its kurdish suppression?

Or dare I say it - the armenian holocaust..

When was the last kurdish solidarity movement aid flotilla/convoy?

Where are all the international do-gooders to support kurdish rights and independence?

How about darfur and other massive human rights abuses around the world?

As long as it doesnt involve israel, quite frankly nobody gives a damn.

But I digress.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

How often do you see the UN condemning Turkey for its kurdish suppression?

Or dare I say it - the armenian holocaust..

When was the last kurdish solidarity movement aid flotilla/convoy?

Where are all the international do-gooders to support kurdish rights and independence?

How about darfur and other massive human rights abuses around the world?

As long as it doesnt involve israel, quite frankly nobody gives a damn.

But I digress.

Whatboutery at its finest. Its pretty clear that your concern for the Kurds is disingenous, and is more about making excuses for Israel.

B0jangles

So if Israel is the victim of the incessant attack of hamas, why have more than 10 TIMES as many Palestinian children been killed than Israeli?


TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000:
Israelis: 124
TOTALS FOR 2009:
Israelis: 1



TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000:
Palestinians: 1446
TOTALS FOR 2009:
Palestinians: 295


All of these death are tragic - Israeli kids are as entitled as Palestinian ones to grow up safely, but it is absurd for Israel's defenders here to pretend that the bulk of the deaths and suffering are suffered by Israel, it's patently untrue.


Source: http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2009.html

Edit: in case you don't trust this source, here's a U.N. report from 2007

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/CAS_Aug07.pdf

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Israel can't stop anyone telling their story, they wont all be shipped off to guantanamo you know.

No, there just trying to stop it being told, until the furor dies down. As it stands they are blocking the other side story, in an attempt to minimises outrage against Israels murder.

bambooze wrote: »

I
We're talking about international investigations which have not yet begun yet
the whole world still condemns israel anyway.

Well, there is more than enought evidence to condemn Israel for there murderous piracy as it stand. Israel has earned the condemnation with there own actions.

bambooze wrote: »

I
Yes that's your opinion, which doesn't mean you are correct on the matter of international law.

I am completely correct actually. The law is very clear on this.

omega666

bambooze wrote: »

How often do you see the UN condemning Turkey for its kurdish suppression?

Or dare I say it - the armenian holocaust..

When was the last kurdish solidarity movement aid flotilla/convoy?

Where are all the international do-gooders to support kurdish rights and independence?

How about darfur and other massive human rights abuses around the world?

As long as it doesnt involve israel, quite frankly nobody gives a damn.

But I digress.

Because simply put Israel are the absolute most arrogant and horrible nation in the world today. They time and time again stick two finger up every country in the world with a big f* you and a smile on their face.

I guess people are just completely sick of them and their claims to be a legimate civilized country when keep doing stuff like this when there is absolutly no need for it.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

Whatboutery at its finest. Its pretty clear that your concern for the Kurds is disingenous, and is more about making excuses for Israel.

Hey I didnt raise the kurdish issue here, just responded. Besides which I do have a personal interest there. But as I said, I digress.. back to the topic at hand.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Hey I didnt raise the kurdish issue here, just responded. Besides which I do have a personal interest there. But as I said, I digress.. back to the topic at hand.

No, you just decided to jump on the whataboutery band wagon instead.

ejmaztec

bambooze wrote: »

How often do you see the UN condemning Turkey for its kurdish suppression?

Or dare I say it - the armenian holocaust..

When was the last kurdish solidarity movement aid flotilla/convoy?

Where are all the international do-gooders to support kurdish rights and independence?

How about darfur and other massive human rights abuses around the world?

As long as it doesnt involve israel, quite frankly nobody gives a damn.

But I digress.

Any right-thinking human being gives a damn about the injustices of this world, and it's only fair to have Israel on the list of perpetrators along with all the others.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

I am completely correct actually. The law is very clear on this.

The devil is in the details..

International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

This San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea and signed by all UN members, says in paragraph 67:

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".


I'm no lawyer but that seems fairly clear.. they were attempting to breach a blockade, clearly refused to stop and were given ample prior warning.

Of course someone will come along with some other choice quote to backup their opinion but as I've said repeatedly only an international court can rule on this.

Min

Time for the people of Gaza to overthrow their terrorist rulers, Hamas is the problem, not Israel.

B0jangles

bambooze wrote: »

How often do you see the UN condemning Turkey for its kurdish suppression?

Or dare I say it - the armenian holocaust..

When was the last kurdish solidarity movement aid flotilla/convoy?

Where are all the international do-gooders to support kurdish rights and independence?

How about darfur and other massive human rights abuses around the world?

As long as it doesnt involve israel, quite frankly nobody gives a damn.

But I digress.

I find it highly significant that you are perfectly willing to group Israel's activities with some of the most "massive human rights abuses" (your words) of modern times.

snow ghost

Israel has been acting like a rogue state that happily indulges in state sponsored terrorism and has no concern for the Geneva Convention, international opinion or international law.

It does this mockingly knowing that it has the back-up of it's Big Brother the US; on it's own it wouldn't exist to commit its heinous war crimes.

The holocaust survivor on board the Flotilla knows the score - Israel is a Naziesque regime.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

I'm no lawyer but that seems fairly clear.. they were attempting to breach a blockade, clearly refused to stop and were given ample prior warning.

Of course someone will come along with some other choice quote to backup their opinion but as I've said repeatedly only an international court can rule on this.

The blockade is illegal, and as such they had no right to attack the ship. The law is very clear, no need for an international court to interpret the law, in the context of a online conversation. It was very clear what Israel did.

moonpurple

right now israel are detaining irish citizens siezed in international waters

send the irish navy down there as a warning, release them you racist loons:pac:

snow ghost

Min wrote: »

Time for the people of Gaza to overthrow their terrorist rulers, Hamas is the problem, not Israel.

Hamas may well be part of the greater overall problem inflicting Palestine, but your analysis is utterly flawed if you don't recognise that Hamas probably wouldn't be in existence if not for the terrorist and genocidal actions of Israel in displacing and oprressing the Palestinian people from their own lands.

Hamas are a symptom not the cause.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

The blockade is illegal, and as such they had no right to attack the ship. The law is very clear, no need for an international court to interpret the law, in the context of a online conversation. It was very clear what Israel did.

Well again thats a matter of opinion.. there is clearly much debate on the legality of the blockade..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Legal_arguments

But the fact is it exists, the ship tried to break it, they were warned, the rest is history.