Aid Floatillas Attacked

snow ghost

moonpurple wrote: »

right now israel are detaining irish citizens siezed in international waters

send the irish navy down there as a warning, release them you racist loons:pac:

I don't think Israel would be too worried about the Irish navy!

If they don't release the kidnapped Irish citizens we as a people should march on the Israeli Embassy.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Well again thats a matter of opinion.. there is clearly much debate on the legality of the blockade..

UN resolution is very clear on it being illegal.

bambooze wrote: »

But the fact is it exists, the ship tried to break it, they were warned, the rest is history.

The fact remains is that IDF pirates murdered a bunch of people.


**EDIT**
Oh and the relevant Resolution:

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Remind me who declared the blockade illegal ? Has the EU for example?

Ok, this has already been posted, but clearly are happy to ignore it:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2009/sc9567.doc.htm

--SNIP--
“2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;

“3. Welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid;
--SNIP--

Israels siege clearly violating the above resolution, and hence illegal.

Nodin

Min wrote: »

Time for the people of Gaza to overthrow their terrorist rulers, Hamas is the problem, not Israel.

I'm sure the people under occupation in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank would - on a good day - find that funny.

AntiRip

wes wrote: »

UN resolution is very clear on it being illegal.



The fact remains is that IDF pirates murdered a bunch of people.

and they haven't learnt anything about it either

"Next time we'll use more force"
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

My name is URL

bambooze wrote: »

Well again thats a matter of opinion.. there is clearly much debate on the legality of the blockade..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Legal_arguments

But the fact is it exists, the ship tried to break it, they were warned, the rest is history.

The fact is that Israel broke international law pertaining to the High Seas by boarding the vessel outside of their own waters

Whatever happened after that doesn't negate the fact that Israel knowingly went against UN Law

moonpurple

until israel releases irish citizens siezed at gun point in international waters..we need to sieze their diplomats currently in dublin and store them in mountjoy

Min

snow ghost wrote: »

Hamas may well be part of the greater overall problem inflicting Palestine, but your analysis is utterly flawed if you don't recognise that Hamas probably wouldn't be in existence if not for the terrorist and genocidal actions of Israel in displacing and oprressing the Palestinian people from their own lands.

Hamas are a symptom not the cause.

There are some nations in the Middle East who will never accept Israel's existence no matter what they do.

The Palestinians are unable to even have one ruler for both Gaza and the West Bank, civil war in Gaza led to Hamas ruling Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank.

Why do the people of Gaza need terrorists ruling them and the West Bank not?

Min

Nodin wrote: »

I'm sure the people under occupation in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank would - on a good day - find that funny.

There is no blockade of the West Bank.

It is only Hamas ruled Gaza.

wes

Min wrote: »

There are some nations in the Middle East who will never accept Israel's existence no matter what they do.

Arab peace initiative says otherwise.

Min wrote: »

The Palestinians are unable to even have one ruler for both Gaza and the West Bank, civil war in Gaza led to Hamas ruling Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank.

A civil war caused by a US backed coup (linked poster earlier in the thread.).

Min wrote: »

Why do the people of Gaza need terrorists ruling them and the West Bank not?

The current government of Israel are terrorists, so why do they need them running there country?

B0jangles

Min wrote: »

There are some nations in the Middle East who will never accept Israel's existence no matter what they do.

The Palestinians are unable to even have one ruler for both Gaza and the West Bank, civil war in Gaza led to Hamas ruling Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank.

Why do the people of Gaza need terrorists ruling them and the West Bank not?

Weirdly, people who are being crushed out of existence tend to pick extremist leaders to represent them.

Morlar

B0jangles wrote: »

Weirdly, people who are being crushed out of existence tend to pick extremist leaders to represent them.

Wow, if I didn't know better I'd say you could almost see a pattern there.

Min

wes wrote: »

Arab peace initiative says otherwise.



A civil war caused by a US backed coup (linked poster earlier in the thread.).



The current government of Israel are terrorists, so why do they need them running there country?

.

The Palestinians in Gaza must be sheep to have a civil war because the US supposedly wanted it....

Israel has a legitimate government, they do not want to be in Gaza, Hamas has created the situation with their rocket attacks and the fact they want Israel destroyed.

PeterIanStaker

I dont think Israel or America for that matter, gives a toss about UN regulations. America was the only member of the UN Security Council not to condemn the actions. May as well bring back the Bush administration.

snow ghost

Min wrote: »

There are some nations in the Middle East who will never accept Israel's existence no matter what they do.

The Palestinians are unable to even have one ruler for both Gaza and the West Bank, civil war in Gaza led to Hamas ruling Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank.

Why do the people of Gaza need terrorists ruling them and the West Bank not?

If you have concerns about Hamas fair enough - although as I pointed out they as a movement are a symptom of Israeli oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people.

If you are trying to justify or divert attention from the state sponsored murder of humanitarian workers onboard an aid flotilla by Israel - by going on about Hamas - then you are basically complicit in justifying that terrorism, murder and breach of international law by Israel.

Min

B0jangles wrote: »

Weirdly, people who are being crushed out of existence tend to pick extremist leaders to represent them.

So why are Hamas not in control of the West Bank?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

Well they'll live, even if things didn't move quite as fast as they should have. At most they'll have a story to tell in the pub tomorrow. Some people are not so fortunate like the israeli held in gaza for several years with NO access to consular, legal, red cross, family or any outside body.. talk to hamas about the geneva convention.

So hamas (who are terrorists according to you) hold an Israeli and break the Geneva convention so that makes it ok for Israel to kidnapp and murder foreign nationals on International waters and then break the Geneva convention?? Nobody here is defending Hamas but you try to use their actions to defend yesterdays murderers and todays kidnappers.

snow ghost

Min wrote: »

So why are Hamas not in control of the West Bank?

Because what was the PLO essentially do... Israel said much the same about the PLO as Hamas, do you not recall when they had Arafat holed up in his bunker calling him a terrorist???

doncarlos

doncarlos wrote: »

If armed Palestinians boarded an Israeli ship on international waters killed 19 of the crew and forced the ship to Gaza where the rest of the crew was detained. Would YOU defend the Palestinians and say we should wait for a potential trial? I dare you to respond to this post

I'm not surprised to choose to ignore this post

PeterIanStaker

Min wrote: »

So why are Hamas not in control of the West Bank?

Because they aren't friends with the good ol' US of A?

B0jangles

Watch out, Min is trying to divert discussion of Israel's current crimes down a sidepath about Hamas.

Don't get sucked in. (like I did, briefly)

davrho

Not sure of posted but this is the take from the Guardian

A Research Fellow from University of Lancaster School of Law and a former British Ambassador in the Guardian.

"A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution."


Hope that throws more light on the legal position being debated.

Min

snow ghost wrote: »

If you have concerns about Hamas fair enough - although as I pointed out they as a movement are a symptom of Israeli oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people.

If you are trying to justify or divert attention from the state sponsored murder of humanitarian workers onboard an aid flotilla by Israel - by going on about Hamas - then you are basically complicit in justifying that terrorism, murder and breach of international law by Israel.

I have no time for Hamas, Israel got criticism for putting up the security wall but it stopped the crazies from Hamas blowing themselves up and innocent Israelis in the process
Putting these same people in charge of Gaza was just sheer stupidity by the people of Gaza.
It would be akin to putting the provisional IRA in charge of Northern Ireland when they were killing innocent people and attacking Britain and then wondering why Britain was taking actions against Northern Ireland when its security was at threat.

I think the people on the ship looked for trouble when they attacked armed soldiers, I was always told if you look for trouble then you will get enough of it.

bambooze

Well according to the beeb, not generally known as a mouthpiece of the IDF..

A maritime blockade is a legal device under international law. It has to have a reason (Israel's is that Hamas would import arms), it has to be formally declared (it was) and it has to be enforced (it is).

As for aid getting into gaza - truck loads roll in every day from israel and egypt - food, fuel, medicine are all allowed in.. allegedly not chocolate according to an earlier post. Actually israel provides most of the electricity supply to gaza also. In general the blockade is to prevent weapons or anything that could be used to make weapons (chemicals found in many common materials and food stuffs for example) from getting to hamas and for good reason.

El Horseboxo

davrho wrote: »

Not sure of posted but this is the take from the Guardian

A Research Fellow from University of Lancaster School of Law and a former British Ambassador in the Guardian.

"A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution."


Hope that throws more light on the legal position being debated.

After reading this how can any Israel sympathizers defend their actions. It was illegal in every sense of the word and yet they will still go unpunished. The US are a bunch of pussies as well. If Israel is never criticized by the only country that really matters in terms of what Israel does they will continue to commit illegal acts and get away with it.

Min

B0jangles wrote: »

Watch out, Min is trying to divert discussion of Israel's current crimes down a sidepath about Hamas.

Don't get sucked in. (like I did, briefly)

Oh please, all we ever hear is how terrible Israel is, lets wave the Palestinian flag and ignore that they have terrorists ruling Gaza.

I have never seen people protest when Israeli citizens were blown up in suicide bombings or attacked by thousands of rockets but the minute Israel does anything controversial they are the demonised unlike the terrorists in Gaza.

Pauleta

I would love to see how long all these Palestian lovers on here would last on the streets of Gaza without being kidnapped or beheaded :rolleyes:

B0jangles

Min wrote: »

Oh please, all we ever hear is how terrible Israel is, lets wave the Palestinian flag and ignore that they have terrorists ruling Gaza.

I have never seen people protest when Israeli citizens were blown up in suicide bombings or attacked by thousands of rockets but the minute Israel does anything controversial they are the demonised unlike the terrorists in Gaza.

Wow, only 2 pages ago and forgotten already

wrote:

why have more than 10 TIMES as many Palestinian children been killed than Israeli?


TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000:
Israelis: 124
TOTALS FOR 2009:
Israelis: 1



TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000:
Palestinians: 1446
TOTALS FOR 2009:
Palestinians: 295


All of these death are tragic - Israeli kids are as entitled as Palestinian ones to grow up safely, but it is absurd for Israel's defenders here to pretend that the bulk of the deaths and suffering are suffered by Israel, it's patently untrue.


Source: http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2009.html

Edit: in case you don't trust this source, here's a U.N. report from 2007

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/CAS_Aug07.pdf

ISRAELIS REALLY AREN'T DOING MOST OF THE DYING

added a picture of a palestinian child at the funeral of a relative killed in an Israeli airstrike which was used to drum up funds for poor israeli children.

classy

El Horseboxo

bambooze wrote: »

Well according to the beeb, not generally known as a mouthpiece of the IDF..



As for aid getting into gaza - truck loads roll in every day from israel and egypt - food, fuel, medicine are all allowed in.. allegedly not chocolate according to an earlier post. Actually israel provides most of the electricity supply to gaza also. In general the blockade is to prevent weapons or anything that could be used to make weapons (chemicals found in many common materials and food stuffs for example) from getting to hamas and for good reason.

Have you ever been to Gaza? If you have you will know that the aid that does manage to get in is not even close to enough. Shops are empty and you can't just stroll down to your chemist if you have a sick child. And Israel provides all the electricity into Gaza and they are constantly cutting it off. They do it around meal times on purpose and they constantly do it outside the stated times that it should be on. Just as they change the curfew times without warning and punish people who break it even though they had previously been told there was no curfew during x and y hours.

snow ghost

Min wrote: »

I have no time for Hamas, Israel got criticism for putting up the security wall but it stopped the crazies from Hamas blowing themselves up and innocent Israelis in the process
Putting these same people in charge of Gaza was just sheer stupidity by the people of Gaza.
It would be akin to putting the provisional IRA in charge of Northern Ireland when they were killing innocent people and attacking Britain and then wondering why Britain was taking actions against Northern Ireland when its security was at threat.

I think the people on the ship looked for trouble when they attacked armed soldiers, I was always told if you look for trouble then you will get enough of it.

With respect Min, I think your analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict situation is fairly naieve.

Regarding the humanitarian aid I believe that humans have a moral right to stand up to oppression and subjugation whether that be by the unlawful and unjust blocakade of Gaza by Israel or by Rosa Parkes standing up against racism in Alabama.

The aid flotilla was supported by many peaceful people - including a survivor of the Nazi holocaust and a nobel peace price winner. I don't believe they caused the deaths.

Israel wanted to play the bully boy once again and say - f*ck with us and this is what you get. They have a track record of this.

Israel's action were completely wrong and only serve to give more support to groups like Hamas who will use their actions as a propaganda coup.

wes

Min wrote: »

.
The Palestinians in Gaza must be sheep to have a civil war because the US supposedly wanted it....

No, they aren't. Fatah planned to wipe out Hamas (democratically elected), and Hamas caught wind of there attack and defended themselves.

Min wrote: »

.
Israel has a legitimate government, they do not want to be in Gaza, Hamas has created the situation with their rocket attacks and the fact they want Israel destroyed.

The fact is that Israel murders, steals land, denies basica human rights, is the other side of the coin, that you choose to ignore.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with Israel present murderous piracy on the high sea's.