Aid Floatillas Attacked

El Horseboxo

bambooze wrote: »

Were you?

My opinion is that he's talking through his arse, based on the fact that these are typically fairly radical activists and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw em.

Radical as in they will stand up against oppressors and voice their opinion and try work towards change through protest. Most are just normal people who hate seeing such acts of oppression occur and want to do something about it. You have in your head that they are arms smugglers out to arm Hamas and destroy Israel or some bunch of terrorists out for a fight. And once you hold that opinion of them you will never see them as the victims no matter what videos get released.

Ardent

wes wrote: »

No, link was already posted. I see no reason to keep posting things, when you have already seen them.

Also, the video doesn't show people being shot, but shots are heard before the IDF board.

Really, so if you can't see the shots being fired, how do you know they were fired BEFORE the activists started attacking the IDF soldiers?? And how do you know they weren't just warning shots?

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

Eye witness accounts of those with a declared pro-pali agenda, engaged in an anti-israel protest.. thats like taking the word of jack the ripper in a room full of dead whores.

I'll wait for eye witness accounts by independent observers or journos, backed up with video evidence (which so far doesnt look good for the peace activists).

We have already seen video evidence released by the IDF. The boarding party was attacked after they boarded a vessel in international waters. Unless you happen to have some video evidence showing that the passengers/crew fired upon the Israelis prior to the boarding then this discussion is irrelevant.

itac

itac wrote: »

Question dodge...:D

Not looking for alternative treatments of plankwalking, or other such activities....you're saying Micheal Martin was using inflammatory language, yet to me, what he's describing is a kidnapping....that was my question to you....:)

As for this statement....."they are ALL suspects until israel is satisified otherwise."

Surely with Israel's past, they would follow the innocent 'til proven guilty train of thought? Or is that me making some form of anti-semitic statement?

bambooze wrote: »

Well they are just suspects, nobody said they are guilty yet. Besides which I think they'll have a tough job using an alibi like "honest guv, I was home in bed with the missus at the time!" on account of them being on the boat in the middle of the sea running a blockade.

I'd be interested to hear what western witnesses on board have to say about the lynch mob.. will they have the balls to speak up or will they just tow the party line - "evil israel! we wus all just playing tiddlywinks!"

My bad....apologies for the presumption.;) Besides, tiddlywinks at sea would be impossible, unless it's the magnetic version, and who brings that anywhere these days, tis all wii this, ds that....

However, still don't get the use of the word lynch mob for those activists fighting on the ship. Palestinian lynch mob who murdered three unarmed soliders = barbaric & cowardly attack imo. However, if you have that much pent up hatred towards the oppressor & you see easy prey, the pack mentality would probably prove hard to resist.

In this case though, I wouldn't describe the activists as lynch mobs...If I was on a ship on which my colleagues/whatever name you want to give them which had been attacked, and it was being boarded by commandos who I knew had already killed & injured some of the crew, I would fight back too. I would be figuring they were going to kill me anyways, and so I'd rather go down fighting my corner than resist....but that's just my personal attitude.....

I doubt we'll ever see unedited tapes from that night, but I'd be more inclined to believe the stories that will come out over the next few days from those on board. Can't imagine them all getting together to have a "right lads, we'll say the Israeli's attacked us first, you say X, I say X, and everyone out there will have to believe us...." kinda get-together any time soon....


Still haven't replied on the kidnap q btw...;)

Archie D Bunker

ScumLord wrote: »

Where on earth did they find unarmed Israeli soldiers? Everything I've seen about Israeli men shows they are very attached to their guns. While I don't doubt those men could have been killed I find it hard to imagine they went for a stroll unarmed through Gaza one evening. The way you've told the storey it sounds like something's missing.

I remember that incident. These were army reserve soldiers who took the wrong turn when they were driving to their base.
They were surrounded by a Palestinian mob and they didn't use their guns because Palestinian police officers arrived at the scene and took the Israeli soldiers to a police station, where they allowed the agitated Palestinian mob to enter the station and lynch the Israeli soldiers who had their guns taken away.
Everything was videotaped and you can probably find these videos on utube.

That incident, by the way, didn't cause any peace activist to march the streets in protest. No demonstrations, no riots, no condemnation of world leaders, no UN security council meetings, etc.

Well, it was only Israelis who were being lynched...

bambooze

ScumLord wrote: »

Where on earth did they find unarmed Israeli soldiers? Everything I've seen about Israeli men shows they are very attached to their guns. While I don't doubt those men could have been killed I find it hard to imagine they went for a stroll unarmed through Gaza one evening. The way you've told the storey it sounds like something's missing.

West bank, not gaza. Two soldiers actually, my mistake.. all the gory details here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

North_West_Art

PeakOutput wrote: »

they were armed with crowd control non lethal weapons, like paintball guns and tear gas

they were attacked before setting foot on the boat

all this occured before the rib arrived in the videos that people are claiming fired shots before boarding

they also disobeyed direct orders from a warship and didnt expect there to be consequences? they were specifically told in the video i posted already that they would not be allowed into israeli controlled waters and that they would not be allowed dock in gaza. they were specifically told that they could dock in israel and be inspected and their aid would then be allowed into the gaza strip

they ignored all this replying 'negative negative our destination is gaza'

this was not random helicopters appearing out of nowhere and landing troops on board this was the culmination of a series of warnings and orders from a military power who, in their opinion, is trying to protect its citizens from a terrorist goverment on its border.

they could have stopped the chain of events leading to their friends deaths at any time but they chose not to.

they could have made a statement by sitting peacefully on their ship and refusing to cooperate with boarders in any way, this would have similarly stopped the chain of events that lead to deaths

but they didnt

they chose to ignore repeated warnings form a nation that my 6 year old niece knows wont back down, they chose to forcefully resist a non-lethally armed force and their actions could have weasily killed a soldier, they chose to beat and attack the soldiers. those choices have consequences as we have unfortunately seen and im not very sympathetic towards those people after being on the fence this morning about it




they chose to ignore that warning

the people that were killed will now be like martyrs, and Israel have only brought even more hatred and negative attention towards themselves. You can see there being serious consquences Im afraid

B0jangles

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I remember that incident. These were army reserve soldiers who took the wrong turn when they were driving to their base.
They were surrounded by a Palestinian mob and they didn't use their guns because Palestinian police officers arrived at the scene and took the Israeli soldiers to a police station, where they allowed the agitated Palestinian mob to enter the station and lynch the Israeli soldiers who had their guns taken away.
Everything was videotaped and you can probably find these videos on utube.

That incident, by the way, didn't cause any peace activist to march the streets in protest. No demonstrations, no riots, no condemnation of world leaders, no UN security council meetings, etc.

Well, it was only Israelis who were being lynched...

Well that is a shameful and terrible act which should have been fully investigated and the police officers who let the mob in charged with their crimes.

At the same time, it just is not the same as government sanctioned piracy leading to murder.

Winty

bambooze wrote: »

West bank, not gaza. Two soldiers actually, my mistake.. all the gory details here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

Where were all the Irish protesters then?

Happy to sit on a boat for a week having a bit of jolly getting a tan, but when 2 young men get kicked to death nothing.

wes

Ardent wrote: »

Really, so if you can't see the shots being fired, how do you know they were fired BEFORE the activists started attacking the IDF soldiers?? And how do you know they weren't just warning shots?

Floatilla people claimed people were killed with the initial shots. Also, once again, the IDF had no right to be on that boat, and its boarding in and of itself constitutes an attack.

Winty

B0jangles wrote: »

At the same time, it just is not the same as government sanctioned piracy leading to murder.

Ah No. Not the same thing. The IDF on that boat were attacked first they did not go onboard to kick people to death

deisedevil

Pretty disgusted to see how many blind sheep have fallen for Israeli propoganda. Luckily the EU, UN, and most countries have condemned it.........

prinz

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I
Well, it was only Israelis who were being lynched...

This gets to the heart of the matter. If there had of been a bar/café/niteclub bombing in Israel yesterday morning and 19 Israelis were killed you'd be lucky to find a thread on it, and you certainly wouldn't have 95% of the moral outrage etc coming from the vast majority of the posters here.

B0jangles

Winty wrote: »

Ah No. Not the same thing. The IDF on that boat were attacked first they did not go onboard to kick people to death

No, they illegally boarded a ship in international waters and it still has not been established whether they fired upon the ship before they boarded.

As has been repeatedly exhaustively, people are entitled to DEFEND themselves when they are being illegally boarded.

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

Floatilla people claimed people were killed with the initial shots. Also, once again, the IDF had no right to be on that boat, and its boarding in and of itself constitutes an attack.

That is one statement that can be easily verified - if the bullet wounds are from hand guns, then the floatilla people are full of crap. To be able to hit a moving target with a hand gun from a hellicopter or a boat in the middle of the ocean is impossible under the best circumstances.

If, on the other hand, some of the bullet wounds are from automatic weapons or sniper rifles, then they might be telling the truth.

Only problem - by the time the truth comes out, no one will care anymore.

B0jangles

prinz wrote: »

This gets to the heart of the matter. If there had of been a bar/café/niteclub bombing in Israel yesterday morning and 19 Israelis were killed you'd be lucky to find a thread on it, and you certainly wouldn't have 95% of the moral outrage etc coming from the vast majority of the posters here.

And this goes to the heart of a different matter - Israel regards itself as a misunderstood martyr state, the sad victim of global anti-semitism, very much akin to the christian majority in the U.S. when it claims to be oppressed.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

West bank, not gaza. Two soldiers actually, my mistake.. all the gory details here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

More off topic whataboutery.

Archie D Bunker

B0jangles wrote: »

No, they illegally boarded a ship in international waters and it still has not been established whether they fired upon the ship before they boarded.

As has been repeatedly exhaustively, people are entitled to DEFEND themselves when they are being illegally boarded.

According to some international law experts, the boarding was legal. Quotes to that effect have been shown several times in these forums.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

That is one statement that can be easily verified - if the bullet wounds are from hand guns, then the floatilla people are full of crap. To be able to hit a moving target with a hand gun from a hellicopter or a boat in the middle of the ocean is impossible under the best circumstances.

If, on the other hand, some of the bullet wounds are from automatic weapons or sniper rifles, then they might be telling the truth.

Only problem - by the time the truth comes out, no one will care anymore.

Well, the main problem is that Israel is clearly engaged in a cover up, via there media blackout. Who knows what they will do to the bodies to cover up what they did?

B0jangles

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

According to some international law experts, the boarding was legal. Quotes to that effect have been shown several times in these forums.

And oddly, it's a lot easier to find an expert who says it was illegal, and even more quotes exist to support this; seems like the relative difficulty of finding biologists who support/deny evolution.

bambooze

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

Well, the main problem is that Israel is clearly engaged in a cover up, via there media blackout. Who knows what they will do to the bodies to cover up what they did?

They can't really do much in regards to bullet holes that isn't noticeable.

karma_

prinz wrote: »

This gets to the heart of the matter. If there had of been a bar/café/niteclub bombing in Israel yesterday morning and 19 Israelis were killed you'd be lucky to find a thread on it, and you certainly wouldn't have 95% of the moral outrage etc coming from the vast majority of the posters here.

Of course we would all condemn it, all but the most lunatic fringe. The marked difference is that we expect atrocious acts from terrorists, what we do not expect is to see a supposed bastion of democracy slaughter 19 aid workers on an aid ship and then claim self defence.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

More off topic whataboutery.

Lynch mob attacking israeli soldiers versus lynch mob attacking israeli soldiers.. quite on topic in my opinion. Goes to show the brutality of a lynch mob and the kind if situation the israelis had to contend with this time.

Archie D Bunker

B0jangles wrote: »

And oddly, it's a lot easier to find an expert who says it was illegal, and even more quotes exist to support this; seems like the relative difficulty of finding biologists who support/deny evolution.

I would say it is easier to find experts who sympathize with the Flotilla people. The letter of the law itself is relatively clear, although as in most cases - the law can sometimes be interpreted differently by different people who have different agendas.

karma_

bambooze wrote: »

Lynch mob attacking israeli soldiers versus lynch mob attacking israeli soldiers.. quite on topic in my opinion. Goes to show the brutality of a lynch mob and the kind if situation the israelis had to contend with this time.

I find your lack of empathy.... disturbing.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

They can't really do much in regards to bullet holes that isn't noticeable.

I am sure they can come up with something.

Archie D Bunker

karma_ wrote: »

Of course we would all condemn it, all but the most lunatic fringe. The marked difference is that we expect atrocious acts from terrorists, what we do not expect is to see a supposed bastion of democracy slaughter 19 aid workers on an aid ship and then claim self defence.

Last I heard there were 9 people who were killed. Also, we don't really know if these were aid workers or members of one of the various organizations who participated.

Ardent

bambooze wrote: »

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

That interview is 100% consistent with what we see in the video footage (including activists wielding knives).

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Lynch mob attacking israeli soldiers versus lynch mob attacking israeli soldiers.. quite on topic in my opinion. Goes to show the brutality of a lynch mob and the kind if situation the israelis had to contend with this time.

No, its completely off topic, as it has nothing to do with the current topic.

The people on the boat were not a lynch mob, and any suggestions are complete nonsense.

So again, off topic whataboutery, which you have engaged in several times.