Aid Floatillas Attacked

Ardent

wes wrote: »

More off topic whataboutery.

Not off topic at all. Very relevant in fact.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

Why should we believe the IDF?

wes

Ardent wrote: »

Not off topic at all. Very relevant in fact.

No, it isn't actually. Nothing to do with the current topic, as the claims of the floatilla people being a lynch mob, is a pile of nonsense.

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

Why should we believe the IDF?

Why do you believe the people on the Flotilla?

mikom

bambooze wrote: »

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

Jesus, they fucked him up good........ http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/24012010/2586663/4_wh.jpg


'20 people threw me from deck'



Ah, more like 3.
Any more lies?

donfers

B0jangles wrote: »

I think it's shameful how the Holocaust and the history of jewish persecution has been hijacked by Israel to justify their more repugnant and horrific acts.

it's the media age and despite Israel's best efforts, news of their brutality is everywhere, it's one PR disaster after another with them as public opinion around the world against them intensifies, their siege mentality will also intensify leading them to fear more, to panic more and to justify their brutal actions even more.....I fear for them that they are near to breaking point and their sins may soon come back to haunt them. They'll need to agree a peace settlement soon with the Palestinians (pressurised by Americans) because there is only so much the court of world opinion will take. Expect more sympathy towards Hamas now, expect more funding for them, expect them to get more popular and expect them to be able to negotiate more arms deals...they love when Israel do **** like this, it's great for them. Just like Bloody Sunday was the great boost a demoralised underpowered IRA needed and sustained them for generations, so too was this yet another shot in the arm for Hamas. Israel will one day very much regret this mindless slaughter (the stuff going on in Palestine is bad enough but the massacre of Palestinian refugees in some slum doesn't have the same impact on world opinion as an act of piracy against an aid ship containing a wide variety of nationalities, this along with the passport debacle really makes me thing Israel is losing its marbles and riding roughshod over international law and in the face of every world power, bar their pal Uncle Sam, it is truly a bloody-minded, idiotic and dangerous strategy).

What could really turn things is when yet another of Israel's reckless "defense" assualts results in the deaths of American citizens, that could well be the tipping point, please feel free to quote this post when that does happen as I believe it is almost inevitable.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Why do you believe the people on the Flotilla?

They aren't know liars like the IDF.

Now care to answer my question?

prinz

Not to worry kids the rockets are still flying from Gaza. :rolleyes:

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

R said that some 75% of the people in the vessel resisted violently, "each one with a knife in his hand."

Do you honestly believe him?

kaki

bambooze wrote: »

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

Hardly an impartial fountain of information there. Although there's an opinion article that makes some sense (although there are some aspects of it I don't agree with).

How did we get so dumb?
Israel played into Hamas’ hands in an amateurish, pathetic way
Sima Kadmon
Published: 06.01.10, 16:14 / Israel Opinion
When was it that we were just a little less right and a little smarter instead? Almost everything we do in recent years suffers from lack of sophistication, insufficient consideration, and negligence. It appears that the dictum “don’t be right, be smart” grows more meaningful around here from one incident to the next, from one operation to the next, and from one war to the next.

What does it mean to be smart? For example, sending Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon to brief the foreign press in an incident where we killed Turkish nationals is not smart; the same Ayalon who reprimanded the Turkish envoy months ago as he sat in a low chair. It’s just like throwing a red rag into an arena of hungry bulls. Where’s the tact? Where’s our common sense?

It’s not as though the alternative, sending Foreign Minister Lieberman, was much better. Yet someone needs to think ahead, see the overall picture, understand the implications, and predict the reactions.

Yet we don’t need to go that far: As to the trap awaiting our troops at sea Monday, we can say that the writing was all over the water. For weeks they’ve been talking about the sail around here and what needs to be done about it. Yet they didn’t do one simple thing: A thorough intelligence check of the people who are on board these ships.

So is it any wonder that the incident on board the Marmara caused such shock to the Israeli public? Nobody prepared us for this. Nobody told us there would be such bloodshed and that we may find ourselves facing an international entanglement. And why should they prepare us? Our leadership itself didn’t know this.

When the defense minister spoke Monday about a radical Turkish group it was all very nice, but why did he have to do it after the fact? If you knew, Mr. Minister, that members of this organization were on board the vessel, why didn’t you prepare accordingly? And if you didn’t know – why didn’t you know?

Humiliating our troops
There’s not much to say about it: There wasn’t much brainpower at work here. And it’s not as though we needed a spark of genius. Common sense would be enough in order to understand that this is precisely what these protestors were seeking: a violent clash before the cameras.


We can say with certainty that Hamas leaders were not overwhelmed by tears when they heard about the fatalities. They could not dream of better results: IDF fighters shooting “peace lovers.” We can say that Israel played into Hamas’ hands in an amateurish, pathetic way. So great, we’re right. But why the hell did we stop being smart?

One thing should be clear: There is not even one word of criticism here in respect to Flotilla 13 fighters. They apparently did precisely what they had to do. The question is why they even had to be there to begin with. Didn’t all our wonderful minds, starting with the prime minister, have any better ideas than deploying soldiers on a deck where 600 unknown individuals are waiting for them? Is this the only way to stop ships?

What about causing some kind of mechanical mishap? Throwing a bolt into the engine? And if we’re already at it, why did we even need to stop them? Yesterday officials spoke of the need to maintain the blockade as if Gaza is hermetically sealed; as if these ships, which transported wheelchairs and milk, were the dangers posed by the besieged Gaza, rather than the endless weapon smuggling operations.


The repeated sights of soldiers being beat up with bats were like a blow to the stomach. It was sad to see our political and security establishment exposing them to this humiliation because of thoughtlessness.

In a normal country, we would have urged someone to resign. Sorry, what I meant to say is that in a normal country someone would have already resigned by now. Yet around here, the prime minister decides to return home from North America after long hours of deliberations. And this is supposed to reassure us.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897284,00.html

karma_

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Why do you believe the people on the Flotilla?

One of them was docked in Ireland last week and many people can testify they spoke to the crew and members of the aid effort, they were just aid workers and volunteers. I know that doesn't suit what you want to make out happened, but don't let the facts get in the way for teh justification for murder now.

wes

prinz wrote: »

Not to worry kids the rockets are still flying from Gaza. :rolleyes:

Yeah, and the illegal siege is still going, as well as the land theft etc from Israel. Of course that is always nicely ignored when it suits.

donfers

It's clear to see that in the media and even on this thread it's a propoganda war.

Bambooze provides a link to an interview with a soldier saying 20 people threw him overboard whereas someone else provided a link where one of the people on the ship said they were brutally beaten when in Israeli custody.

Wise men, experts and those who study these kind of things will always tell you that in these situations the best guide is to be more distrusting of those who have the power/are in control/have most to lose.

In this case that is obviously Israel so it's understandable that few here view their interpretation of events as having any kind of integrity or credibility.

karma_

prinz wrote: »

Not to worry kids the rockets are still flying from Gaza. :rolleyes:

Can you tell me Prinz, why do Israel hand these propaganda victories to Hamas time after time? If they really wanted change why not show a more lenient attitude and give Fatah more support? Allow the inhabitants of Gaza some freedom to get rid of Hamas by the correct means?

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

They aren't know liars like the IDF.

Now care to answer my question?

I believe the soldier because I have seen the video of the Israeli soldiers coming aboard the ship (dangling from the helicopter). It is very clear that the moment the first soldier landed on the ship, he was viciously attacked.
The footage of the soldier being thrown off is also very clear.

As for the reliability of the Flotilla people - Let's just say that Palestinian supporters of all kinds have been caught in many blatant lies before, including in this case with the Flotilla where they claimed that Raaed salah (excuse me if I'm not spelling the name correctly) was killed/murdered/injured/kidnapped by the Israelis when they took control of the ship.

B0jangles

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I believe the soldier because I have seen the video of the Israeli soldiers coming aboard the ship (dangling from the helicopter). It is very clear that the moment the first soldier landed on the ship, he was viciously attacked.
The footage of the soldier being thrown off is also very clear.

As for the reliability of the Flotilla people - Let's just say that Palestinian supporters of all kinds have been caught in many blatant lies before, including in this case with the Flotilla where they claimed that Raaed salah (excuse me if I'm not spelling the name correctly) was killed/murdered/injured/kidnapped by the Israelis when they took control of the ship.

So you accept IDF video evidence released 12 hours after the events, but not flotilla video evidence, released as the events were actually happening.

prinz

wes wrote: »

Yeah, and the illegal siege is still going, as well as the land theft etc from Israel. Of course that is always nicely ignored when it suits.

It isn't actually. As you said yourself IIRC two wrongs don't make a right.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

Interview with the soldier you see being thrown off the deck in the vid..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897486,00.html

Take it or leave it as you will.

"Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."


R said that some 75% of the people in the vessel resisted violently, "each one with a knife in his hand." " Must have been hard for 75 % of everyone weilding knives while also carrying clubs and placcy chairs. Maybe they were attacked by Hindu terrorists channeling Vishnu with all the extra arms going on. 20 people threw him over? I see three or four, so he cant count there either. These guys are so hardened by growing up in that quasi failed state that they see what they want to see.

Archie D Bunker

karma_ wrote: »

One of them was docked in Ireland last week and many people can testify they spoke to the crew and members of the aid effort, they were just aid workers and volunteers. I know that doesn't suit what you want to make out happened, but don't let the facts get in the way for teh justification for murder now.

Just a reminder - a volunteer could also be a Hamas activist, or a Palestinian hot head. Besides, I've never seen aid workers running around with knives and steel pipes before. I've also never seen aid workers attacking soldiers before.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I believe the soldier because I have seen the video of the Israeli soldiers coming aboard the ship (dangling from the helicopter). It is very clear that the moment the first soldier landed on the ship, he was viciously attacked.

The soldier was the attacker, he had no business on the ship. Also, the video was heavily edited, and untrustworthy.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

The footage of the soldier being thrown off is also very clear.

No, it isn't actually. It is once again heavily editted, to remove the attacks by the IDF.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

As for the reliability of the Flotilla people - Let's just say that Palestinian supporters of all kinds have been caught in many blatant lies before, including in this case with the Flotilla where they claimed that Raaed salah (excuse me if I'm not spelling the name correctly) was killed/murdered/injured/kidnapped by the Israelis when they took control of the ship.

Any proof that the people involved or organizations have been know to tell lies, like the IDF does all the time?

Min

prinz wrote: »

This gets to the heart of the matter. If there had of been a bar/café/niteclub bombing in Israel yesterday morning and 19 Israelis were killed you'd be lucky to find a thread on it, and you certainly wouldn't have 95% of the moral outrage etc coming from the vast majority of the posters here.

If you kill an Israeli you are a freedom fighter, if an Israeli kills a 'freedom fighter' he/she is a murderer.

wes

prinz wrote: »

It isn't actually. As you said yourself IIRC two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes, it is being ignored again and again. Hamas are smacked upside there head with sanctions and Israel gets off scot free again and again. Israel needs to be put under sanctions right away, as there no better than Hamas at this point.

Also, I agree 2 wrongs don't make a right, but you can't expect one side to stop, when the other keeps on going. They both have to stop.

prinz

karma_ wrote: »

Can you tell me Prinz, why do Israel hand these propaganda victories to Hamas time after time? If they really wanted change why not show a more lenient attitude and give Fatah more support? Allow the inhabitants of Gaza some freedom to get rid of Hamas by the correct means?

Because there are idiots running the show.

doncarlos

Min wrote: »

If you kill an Israeli you are a freedom fighter, if an Israeli kills a 'freedom fighter' he/she is a murderer.

So the aid workers are freedom fighters now? Jesus this keeps getting better and better. :rolleyes:
Lads did you ever hear the saying when you're in a hole stop digging?

Morlar

Wibbs wrote: »

"Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."


R said that some 75% of the people in the vessel resisted violently, "each one with a knife in his hand." " Must have been hard for 75 % of everyone weilding knives while also carrying clubs and placcy chairs. Maybe they were attacked by Hindu terrorists channeling Vishnu with all the extra arms going on. 20 people threw him over? I see three or four, so he cant count there either. These guys are so hardened by growing up in that quasi failed state that they see what they want to see.

It's interesting to note that he has admitted that he killed a protestor before being ditched down to the next level of the boat.

It's entirely possible that these 2 events are related.

I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below.

By a coincidence the IDF did not have any footage of that killing the protestor part of the story though.

Otherwise his interview reads like a very typical IDF 'oh poor me' type of story.

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

The soldier was the attacker, he had no business on the ship. Also, the video was heavily edited, and untrustworthy.

No, it isn't actually. It is once again heavily editted, to remove the attacks by the IDF.

But you don't really know that do you? It's what you believe, yet not having a shred of proof doesn't bother you?

wes wrote: »

Any proof that the people involved or organizations have been know to tell lies, like the IDF does all the time?

Sure, I'll just name a few (again - please excuse the spelling) - the "jenin massacre", Muhamad a-Dura, the "we don't fire from schools and mosques or use human shields" mantra, and there are plenty more

B0jangles

I was trying to think of an analogy to explain why there is generally more sympathy with the Palestinians than with the Israelis and this occurred to me:

300 years ago a small, persecuted religious population moved to a new country. At first a small group, they expanded rapidly and over the following couple of centuries, they expanded their borders and displaced/killed the people who had lived there before. Eventually the whole of the country was controlled by the incoming population, with the original inhabitants driven to living on the worst land in controlled settlements.

Massacres occurred, mostly it was the native population who died, but sometimes the settlers were killed horribly.

Strangely, modern historians tend to agree that the native population were driven to attack under unbearable pressure, and there can be no equivalence between the terrible acts committed.

Guess which country this is! :pac:

Archie D Bunker

prinz wrote: »

Because there are idiots running the show.

The Israeli curse = The Israeli politicians

Wibbs

wes wrote: »

The soldier was the attacker, he had no business on the ship. Also, the video was heavily edited, and untrustworthy.



No, it isn't actually. It is once again heavily editted, to remove the attacks by the IDF.



Any proof that the people involved or organizations have been know to tell lies, like the IDF does all the time?

Indeed. If the IDF are in earnest and wish to show the world that they acted in a normal manner, then why not release the entire footage from the second the choppers go in, right to the end when the shooting stopped and they had control of the vessel. Gvien they say they've nothing to hide, they clearly have the footage from various vantage points, so why not?

Min wrote: »

If you kill an Israeli you are a freedom fighter, if an Israeli kills a 'freedom fighter' he/she is a murderer.

No. Not for me anyway. If someone kills an Israeli going about their business or an Israeli soldier on the ground not firing first, or escaates a situation where this is inevitable then they're murderers too. Like that lynch mob mentioned earlier. If an Israeli kills people by the same manner, they're murderers.

karma_

B0jangles wrote: »

I was trying to think of an analogy to explain why there is generally more sympathy with the Palestinians than with the Israelis and this occurred to me:

300 years ago a small, persecuted religious population moved to a new country. At first a small group, they expanded rapidly and over the following couple of centuries, they expanded their borders and displaced/killed the people who had lived there before. Eventually the whole of the country was controlled by the incoming population, with the original inhabitants driven to living on the worst land in controlled settlements.

Massacres occurred, mostly it was the native population who died, but sometimes the settlers were killed horribly.

Strangely, modern historians tend to agree that the native population were driven to attack under unbearable pressure, and there can be no equivalence between the terrible acts committed.

Guess which country this is! :pac:

Guessing its teh USA