Aid Floatillas Attacked

B0jangles · 01-06-2010 3:23pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

The Israeli curse = The Israeli politicians

Finally, something I can agree with

omega666 · 01-06-2010 3:23pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Just a reminder - a volunteer could also be a Hamas activist, or a Palestinian hot head. Besides, I've never seen aid workers running around with knives and steel pipes before. I've also never seen aid workers attacking soldiers before.

well if you though someone was going to shoot you what would you do,
Stand there and do noting or try stop them. i know what i would do!

B0jangles · 01-06-2010 3:23pm

karma_ wrote: »

Guessing its teh USA

Bingo!

EuskalHerria · 01-06-2010 3:24pm

I think this is a very good article

Israel's Attack on Us All

By JONATHAN COOK

Nazareth.

It is quite astounding that Israel has been able to create over the past 12 hours a news blackout, just as it did with its attack on Gaza 18 months ago, into which our main media organisations have willingly allowed Israeli spokespeople to step in unchallenged.

How many civilians were killed in Israel’s dawn attack on the Gaza-bound flotilla of aid? We still don’t know. How many wounded? Your guess is as good as mine. Were the aid activists armed with guns? Yes, says Israel. Were they in cahoots with al-Qaeda and Hamas? Certainly, says Israel. Did the soldiers act reasonably? Of course, they faced a lynch, says Israel.

If we needed any evidence of the degree to which Western TV journalists are simply stenographers to power, the BBC, CNN and others are amply proving it. Mark Regev, Israel’s propagandist-in-chief, has the airwaves largely to himself.

The passengers on the ships, meanwhile, have been kidnapped by Israel and are unable to provide an alternative version of events. We can guess they will remain in enforced silence until Israel is sure it has set the news agenda.

So before we get swamped by Israeli hasbara let’s reiterate a few simple facts:

* Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law, and, in killing civilians, committed a war crime. The counter-claim by Israeli commanders that their soldiers responded to an imminent “lynch” by civilians should be dismissed with the loud contempt it deserves.

* The Israeli government approved the boarding of these aid ships by an elite unit of commandoes. They were armed with automatic weapons to pacify the civilians onboard, but not with crowd dispersal equipment in case of resistance. Whatever the circumstances of the confrontation, Israel must be held responsible for sending in soldiers and recklessly endangering the lives of all the civilians onboard, including a baby and a Holocaust survivor.

* Israel has no right to control Gaza’s sea as its own territorial waters and to stop aid convoys arriving that way. In doing so, it proves that it is still in belligerent occupation of the enclave and its 1.5 million inhabitants. And if it is occupying Gaza, then under international law Israel is responsible for the welfare of the Strip’s inhabitants. Given that the blockade has put Palestinians there on a starvation diet for the past four years, Israel should long ago have been in the dock for committing a crime against humanity.

Today Israel chose to direct its deadly assault not only at Palestinians under occupation but at the international community itself.

Will our leaders finally be moved to act?

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook05312010.html

Dar · 01-06-2010 3:24pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I would say it is easier to find experts who sympathize with the Flotilla people. The letter of the law itself is relatively clear, although as in most cases - the law can sometimes be interpreted differently by different people who have different agendas.

Yes the letter of the law is quite clear. Israel are attempting to use the San Remo Manual to justify their actions, as it does state that merchant ships may be seized in international waters if they attempt to breach a blockade.

However it also states that:

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

Previous aid convoys were not stopped Israeli forces, therefore the blockade is not effective and the blockade is not legal. The whole point of this clause is to prevent selective enforcement.

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

The UN has already stated that the level of aid given by Israel is not sufficient. Therefore any effort to prevent aid from reaching the civilian population can only be considered as an attempt to deny objects essential for their survival.

The blockade is illegal, therefore any action committed to enforce the blockade is illegal. Therefore the boarding action itself was illegal, as was the killing of passengers and crew.

deisedevil · 01-06-2010 3:25pm

Like Wibbs said, why are Israel hiding everything? Why not release the entire footage unedited. Why not leave all the people on the Flotilla speak? Why did they put them on buses with covered up windows and send them to camps?

prinz · 01-06-2010 3:25pm

prinz wrote: »

Because there are idiots running the show.

Actuallly idiots isn't right. IMO there are people who revel in bloodshed in high places in the Israeli regime. Not all, but there are definitely some. Their temper has clouded their judgement as it tends to do. They've shot themselves in the foot so much they've got no toes and sooner or later they'll topple over.

B0jangles · 01-06-2010 3:26pm

prinz wrote: »

Actuallly idiots isn't right. IMO there are people who revel in bloodshed in high places in the Israeli regime. Not all, but there are definitely some. Their temper has clouded their judgement as it tends to do. They've shot themselves in the foot so much they've got no toes and sooner or later they'll topple over.

And the people of Israel will end up crushed under that collapse

(to stretch the analogy even further)

EuskalHerria · 01-06-2010 3:27pm

To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place
on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html

Ardent · 01-06-2010 3:28pm

B0jangles wrote: »

So you accept IDF video evidence released 12 hours after the events, but not flotilla video evidence, released as the events were actually happening.

flotilla video evidence of what?

B0jangles · 01-06-2010 3:30pm

Ardent wrote: »

flotilla video evidence of what?

Evidence which showed people with gunshot wounds and no sign of any IDF troops in the vicinity which does not tally with the story that shooting only started after the soldiers were surrounded and "lynched". How could they film the injured if there were soldiers close by? It is very clear that preventing information getting out has been a key IDf objective, do you think they'd stand around and let Al jazeera keep filming if they were close enough to stop them?

the_syco · 01-06-2010 3:32pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Besides, I've never seen aid workers running around with knives and steel pipes before. I've also never seen aid workers attacking soldiers before.

Agreed.

Archie D Bunker · 01-06-2010 3:32pm

Dar wrote: »

Yes the letter of the law is quite clear. Israel are attempting to use the San Remo Manual to justify their actions, as it does state that merchant ships may be seized in international waters if they attempt to breach a blockade.

However it also states that:

Previous aid convoys were not stopped Israeli forces, therefore the blockade is not effective and the blockade is not legal. The whole point of this clause is to prevent selective enforcement.

The UN has already stated that the level of aid given by Israel is not sufficient. Therefore any effort to prevent aid from reaching the civilian population can only be considered as an attempt to deny objects essential for their survival.

The blockade is illegal, therefore any action committed to enforce the blockade is illegal. Therefore the boarding action itself was illegal, as was the killing of passengers and crew.

So, if the blockade isn't effective, why are the Palestinians always complaining that they are being starved, that they have no building materials, etc?
Apparently, the Palestinians themselves think the blockade is effective, and seeing as they are the ones who are being blockaded, I will assume they are correct and the blockade is effective which means the blockade is legal which means the boarding was legal.
And all according to your logic

prinz · 01-06-2010 3:32pm

B0jangles wrote: »

And the people of Israel will end up crushed under that collapse (to stretch the analogy even further)

The people of Israel are already being crushed from within and without. No amount of rockets from Gaza or kidnapped soldiers is going to lead to a change in the mentality of those at the top.

Dar · 01-06-2010 3:34pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

So, if the blockade isn't effective, why are the Palestinians always complaining that they are being starved, that they have no building materials, etc?
Apparently, the Palestinians themselves think the blockade is effective, and seeing as they are the ones who are being blockaded, I will assume they are correct and the blockade is effective which means the blockade is legal which means the boarding was legal.
And all according to your logic

Did aid ships dock in Gaza without being stopped by the Israelis?

Archie D Bunker · 01-06-2010 3:35pm

EuskalHerria wrote: »

To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place
on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html

Nice analysis, unfortunately the legality of the boarding is still in question (San Remo anyone?), and will remain that way until there is some kind of international trial or tribunal.

Ardent · 01-06-2010 3:35pm

B0jangles wrote: »

Evidence which showed people with gunshot wounds and no sign of any IDF troops in the vicinity which does not tally with the story that shooting only started after the soldiers were surrounded and "lynched". How could they film the injured if there were soldiers close by? It is very clear that preventing information getting out has been a key IDf objective, do you think they'd stand around and let Al jazeera keep filming if they were close enough to stop them?

Why couldn't it have been filmed afterwards?

Please provide a link to this video of activists with gunshot wounds and no IDF troops in sight.

karma_ · 01-06-2010 3:36pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Nice analysis, unfortunately the legality of the boarding is still in question (San Remo anyone?), and will remain that way until there is some kind of international trial or tribunal.

Don't worry about investigations, that will soon be vetoed.

Archie D Bunker · 01-06-2010 3:36pm

Dar wrote: »

Did aid ships dock in Gaza without being stopped by the Israelis?

Doesn't really matter. You will never find a completely effective blockade - there will always be smugglers, tunnels, special circumstances (political or humanitarian), etc.

deisedevil · 01-06-2010 3:37pm

karma_ wrote: »

Don't worry about investigations, that will soon be vetoed.

Yep, same old story.

B0jangles · 01-06-2010 3:37pm

prinz wrote: »

The people of Israel are already being crushed from within and without. No amount of rockets from Gaza or kidnapped soldiers is going to lead to a change in the mentality of those at the top.

And that is a tragedy - I've tried to imagine the joy that must have been felt after the war when Israel was created - a real homeland for so many homeless people. 60 years later and it has turned into this

B0jangles · 01-06-2010 3:38pm

Ardent wrote: »

Why couldn't it have been filmed afterwards?

Please provide a link to this video of activists with gunshot wounds and no IDF troops in sight.

Same old video that has been posted 20+ times already

http://www9.gazetevatan.com/israil-...308396/1/Gundem

Dar · 01-06-2010 3:42pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Doesn't really matter. You will never find a completely effective blockade - there will always be smugglers, tunnels, special circumstances (political or humanitarian), etc.

Israel cannot impose a blockade and then selectively decide which ships it is doing to stop. Each of these convoys has been publicized - they are in essence a publicity stunt by pro-Palestinian groups. They cannot be considered smugglers.

Israel knew of the previous convoys and did not stop them, despite having the power to do so. Therefore the blockade is not effective. They cannot impose a blockade, fail to enforce it and then decide that due to more recent political developments that they "really mean it now".

wes · 01-06-2010 3:48pm

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

But you don't really know that do you? It's what you believe, yet not having a shred of proof doesn't bother you?

The video themselves clearly leave out huge chunks of what happened. The video's are proof of the editing in and of themselves, but as I said before there wrong either way.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Sure, I'll just name a few (again - please excuse the spelling) - the "jenin massacre", Muhamad a-Dura, the "we don't fire from schools and mosques or use human shields" mantra, and there are plenty more

So, the people on the boat were directly involved in those events? Care to provide proof.

Archie D Bunker · 01-06-2010 3:54pm

wes wrote: »

So, the people on the boat were directly involved in those events? Care to provide proof.

That's not what I said - I was asked to give examples of Palestinian lies

skelliser · 01-06-2010 3:56pm

Here, the Rachel Corrie is still en route to Gaza!!

Micheal Martin has said the ship should not be impeded.

HUZZAH!!!!

Gerry Asstrix · 01-06-2010 4:02pm

I find it funny the amount of cretins here defending the Zionists attack on innocent aid workers.

Here are the FACTS, Israel illegally and physically boarded ships in neutral independent waters, these were commandoes armed with high tech assualt rifles, automatic pistols, grenades, stun grenades, flashbands, kinfes and full body armor.

The people on the ships are just ordinary Joes from all over the world looking to bring aid to an impoverished nation due to Zionist blockades that is intended to make them starve and give up their claims through starvation.

The Israeli military opened fire on these people and killed up to 20 and wounded dozens out of pure spite.

And you condemn the people on the boats who decided to defend themselves with deck chairs and mops ,GOD FORBID.

We really do have some morons and cold hearted bigots among us

bambooze · 01-06-2010 4:05pm

Turkish aid organisation IHH linked to extremism

ISTANBUL – The Turkish organisation IHH (Foundation for Humanitarian Relief), which organized one of the ships in the aid convoy to Gaza, and which was attacked by Israel today, has two faces: aid organisation and friend of extremists. In Turkey it is mainly supported by conservative Muslims.

http://www.journalistinturkey.com/stories/human-rights/turkish-aid-organisation-ihh-linked-to-extremism_1355/

I don't know anything about the source so judge for yourself.

Archie D Bunker · 01-06-2010 4:06pm

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

We really do have some morons and cold hearted bigots among us

Probably the only sentence which is true in what you said...

Morlar · 01-06-2010 4:09pm

bambooze wrote: »

Turkish aid organisation IHH linked to extremism

ISTANBUL – The Turkish organisation IHH (Foundation for Humanitarian Relief), which organized one of the ships in the aid convoy to Gaza, and which was attacked by Israel today, has two faces: aid organisation and friend of extremists. In Turkey it is mainly supported by conservative Muslims.

http://www.journalistinturkey.com/stories/human-rights/turkish-aid-organisation-ihh-linked-to-extremism_1355/

I don't know anything about the source so judge for yourself.

Could I just ask - seeing as you just joined and all your posts are in defence of israel are you anything to do with those pro-israel advocacy groups like giyus.org etc ?

Aid Floatillas Attacked

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