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Aid Floatillas Attacked

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    #1172
    bambooze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭bambooze


    Gigiwagga wrote: »
    I see Israel have killed five more people in Gaza today, seem to be on a bit of a streak at the moment. A bit of a killing spree it seems

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/jun/01/israel-flotilla-raid-fallout-live

    By people you mean militants, even the guardian says that.


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    #1173
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    deisedevil wrote: »
    If they were terrorists then what's wrong with it? Those on the flotilla were not terrorists as Israel are trying to depict them.

    What's wrong with it?

    Because as soon as you are shot dead by the IDF, you are branded a terrorist .............. irrespective of the fact if you are a 78-year-old man tending to his flock, or a 14-year-old boy going to school.

    That's what's wrong with it.


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    #1174
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Kivaro wrote: »
    What's wrong with it?
    That's what's wrong with it.

    :rolleyes: Give over.

    Two were killed in an exchange of fire on the Israeli side of the border and the others killed after firing rockets into Israel..
    A spokesman for the militant Popular Resistance Committees said three of the group's members had been killed in an Israeli air strike over the northern Gaza Strip, one of them a field commander.

    Islamic Jihad identified the two men killed in the other incident as members of their group.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65037C20100601

    Why would two armed Islamic Jihadists enter Israeli land.... to 'tend their flocks' or to kill as many as they could?


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    #1175
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    bambooze wrote: »
    By people you mean militants, even the guardian says that.

    And in the same article you quote there is an eyewitness report from a Brazilian filmmaker on the ship who says the soldiers boarded and started shooting - she's a human rights activist who has in the past campaigned for women in Afghanistan and against the Taliban, so you can't accuse her of having blind pro-muslim views.


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    #1176
    bambooze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭bambooze


    B0jangles wrote: »
    And you really really don't see anything suspicious in the fact that it took 12 hours for the IDF to release a couple of pretty short bits of footage in nightvision, when they apparently filmed the whole event and yet the people on the Flotilla managed to release footage while under attack?

    Reeeally?

    If it was up to me I'd have cams on every gun and every helmet and stream it all live.. but maybe that's an expectation born of living in this "real time" connected world these days.. even if they did all have cams, practical matters would probably delay the release of such video anyway.. takes a while to download masses of video from potentially hundreds of soldiers and put it somewhere suitable for public viewing and in a format that all can view.

    I'd also want foreign journos embedded everywhere with top notch equipment to make sure we get quality footage, not grainy crap.

    I read somewhere that reuters had a crew on one of the navy ships anyway, don't know any more about that but they must have something.


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    #1177
    Winty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    Kivaro wrote: »
    irrespective of the fact if you are a 78-year-old man tending to his flock, or a 14-year-old boy going to school.

    Israel has made some mistakes but dont forget the 2008 Sbarro pizza restaurant bombing in Jerusalem, in which 15 Israeli civilians were killed and 130 wounded.

    The people of Israel need the IDF to stop Hamas.

    What should Israel do? open up it border to free passage.


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    #1178
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    bambooze wrote: »
    If it was up to me I'd have cams on every gun and every helmet and stream it all live.. but maybe that's an expectation born of living in this "real time" connected world these days.. even if they did all have cams, practical matters would probably delay the release of such video anyway.. takes a while to download masses of video from potentially hundreds of soldiers and put it somewhere suitable for public viewing and in a format that all can view.

    I'd also want foreign journos embedded everywhere with top notch equipment to make sure we get quality footage, not grainy crap.

    I read somewhere that reuters had a crew on one of the ships anyway, don't know any more about that but they must have something.

    That would be brilliant, to finally eliminate all spin and just get the damn truth!


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    #1179
    omega666
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭omega666


    Finally some of the German witness reports are coming out,
    not much yet and a bit unclear and id like to hear what the irish aid workers on that ship say when they get home

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm


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    #1180
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    prinz wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Give over.

    Two were killed in an exchange of fire on the Israeli side of the border and the others killed after firing rockets into Israel..



    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65037C20100601

    Why would two armed Islamic Jihadists enter Israeli land.... to 'tend their flocks' or to kill as many as they could?

    You are missing the point.
    The IDF shoots you dead first; then you are labeled as a terrorist, irrespective of what you are doing. Everyone that they shoot dead is a terrorist.


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    #1181
    doncarlos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    B0jangles wrote: »
    And in the same article you quote there is an eyewitness report from a Brazilian filmmaker on the ship who says the soldiers boarded and started shooting - she's a human rights activist who has in the past campaigned for women in Afghanistan and against the Taliban, so you can't accuse her of having blind pro-muslim views.
    ISRAEL wrote: »
    Every witness apart from the IDF are lying. The UN are liars and the EU are liars.
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #1182
    Gigiwagga
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Gigiwagga


    bambooze wrote: »
    By people you mean militants, even the guardian says that.

    'Militant' interesting word that, and for what it's worth only 3 were claimed by the Popular Resistance Committee, a resistance group...well they're real baaad, and the other two, who knows, crossing the border, probably terrorists.
    let's keep it simple shall we?


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    #1183
    Winty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    omega666 wrote: »
    Finally some of the German witness reports are coming out,
    not much yet and a bit unclear and id like to hear what the irish aid workers on that ship say when they get home

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm

    German pro-Palestinian activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship.

    Great a Pro-Palestinian he will be very fair and impartial.


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    #1184
    bambooze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭bambooze


    Gigiwagga wrote: »
    'Militant' interesting word that, and for what it's worth only 3 were claimed by the Popular Resistance Committee, a resistance group...well they're real baaad, and the other two, who knows, crossing the border, probably terrorists.
    let's keep it simple shall we?

    Not my word, that was what the guardian used.


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    #1185
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Gigiwagga wrote: »
    'Militant' interesting word that, and for what it's worth only 3 were claimed by the Popular Resistance Committee, a resistance group...well they're real baaad, and the other two, who knows, crossing the border, probably terrorists.
    let's keep it simple shall we?

    The other two were Islamic Jihad as they have admitted. Three were involved in firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel and two were tyring to infiltrate the border to get into Israel..and do what? Kill more people.
    Kivaro wrote: »
    You are missing the point.
    The IDF shoots you dead first; then you are labeled as a terrorist...

    That's not really the point. The point is the 5 killed were, admittedly by their own side, involved in terrorism. Spin that any way you like, but again these fools are only serving to reinforce the Israeli position and mentality and lose any goodwill they may otherwise have received.


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    #1186
    omega666
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭omega666


    Winty wrote: »
    German pro-Palestinian activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship.

    Great a Pro-Palestinian he will be very fair and impartial.


    well they are all going to be pro-palestinian, doesnt stop them telling what
    they saw and heard.
    still very vauge of course, this is only the start of it, when they all are released and home we will get the other side of the story


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    #1187
    deisedevil
    Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    Kivaro wrote: »
    What's wrong with it?

    Because as soon as you are shot dead by the IDF, you are branded a terrorist .............. irrespective of the fact if you are a 78-year-old man tending to his flock, or a 14-year-old boy going to school.

    That's what's wrong with it.

    Fair enough, I get that, I know the Israeli's have been doing that with a long time now but you can't prove it, it's not instantly recognisable as an incorrect act.

    Where as the attack on the flotilla was.


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    #1188
    Gigiwagga
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Gigiwagga


    Winty wrote: »
    Israel has made some mistakes but dont forget the 2008 Sbarro pizza restaurant bombing in Jerusalem, in which 15 Israeli civilians were killed and 130 wounded.

    The people of Israel need the IDF to stop Hamas.

    What should Israel do? open up it border to free passage.

    GIVE BACK OCCUPIED TERRITORY, that's what.


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    #1189
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Winty wrote: »
    Israel has made some mistakes but dont forget the 2008 Sbarro pizza restaurant bombing in Jerusalem, in which 15 Israeli civilians were killed and 130 wounded.

    The people of Israel need the IDF to stop Hamas.

    What should Israel do? open up it border to free passage.

    How does this justify the collective punishment of 1.5 million people, exactly? Palestinian terrorism, does not justify Israeli terrorism and vice verse. There is no excuse for what Israel is doing, which is no better than what Hamas does.


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    #1190
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    wes wrote: »
    How does this justify the collective punishment of 1.5 million people, exactly?

    It doesn't. It justifies the IDF taking action against 5 terrorists today.


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    #1191
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Winty wrote: »
    Israel has made some mistakes but dont forget the 2008 Sbarro pizza restaurant bombing in Jerusalem, in which 15 Israeli civilians were killed and 130 wounded.

    The people of Israel need the IDF to stop Hamas.

    What should Israel do? open up it border to free passage.
    Wasn't that 2001?


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    #1192
    General Zod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭General Zod


    Hammer Archer wrote: »
    Wasn't that 2001?


    Nah, 2001 was a movie by Kubrick about space.


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    #1193
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    It doesn't. It justifies the IDF taking action against 5 terrorists today.

    No issues with that, just as I have no issue with the IDF being attacked by Hamas/PLO etc, when there off stealing land that doesn't belong to them, or with the IDF being attacked when they engage in piracy. Either its ok both ways, or for neither.

    Still, prinz it was pretty clear I was talking about the illegal siege by Israel, and not attacks by militants.


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    #1194
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Israel releases footage of "weapons" haul 'found' on Gaza peace ship.

    If Israel can piece together a few dozen fake sofisticated passports surely putting together a few weapons on a table would be no problem to them.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1283077/Israeli-Gaza-aid-flotilla-raid-British-families-face-anxious-wait-news.html


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    #1195
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    wes wrote: »
    Still, prinz it was pretty clear I was talking about the illegal siege by Israel, and not attacks by militants.

    Yes but the poster you replied to wasn't. :) The two are completely separate.


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    #1196
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Israel releases footage of "weapons" haul 'found' on Gaza peace ship.

    If Israel can piece together a few dozen fake sofisticated passports surely putting together a few weapons on a table would be no problem to them.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1283077/Israeli-Gaza-aid-flotilla-raid-British-families-face-anxious-wait-news.html

    And the impact is further lessened considering there were 700 people on the ship and half those knives are clearly from the same kitchen set...


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    #1197
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    B0jangles wrote: »
    And the impact is further lessened considering there were 700 people on the ship and half those knives are clearly from the same kitchen set...

    Not to mention the kids home made catterpult.


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    #1198
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Not to mention the kids home made catterpult.

    and you have to love the casually thrown down palestinian keffiyeh too

    also Stones? catapults? I sense a David vs. Goliath analogy coming on!

    edit: Am I the only one puzzled by the "improvised explosive device"? Surely that length of plastic tubing would have made it useless, unless it was some kind of medical supply hooked up to a drip of course

    article-1283077-09D765B6000005DC-943_634x286.jpg


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    #1199
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    Yes but the poster you replied to wasn't. :) The two are completely separate.

    My mistake then.


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    #1200
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    B0jangles wrote: »
    And the impact is further lessened considering there were 700 people on the ship and half those knives are clearly from the same kitchen set...

    Don't forget a couple of knives & box cutters enabled the hijackers of the 9/11 planes to murder over 3000 innocent people.


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    #1201
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Danny Wooden Savannah wrote: »
    Don't forget a couple of knives & box cutters enabled the hijackers of the 9/11 planes to murder over 3000 innocent people.
    Are you suggesting these 700 aid workers were planning a 9/11 style suicide attack?


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