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Aid Floatillas Attacked

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    #1562
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Also, with the stink being kicked up with this flotilla, one would almost think the whole thing was planned.

    Well it obviously was planned to some extent. You don't decide to launch a night assault, on a moving civilian freighter in international waters, when you had two weeks prior knowlege the freighter was coming, on the spur of the moment.


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    #1563
    Sonnenblumen
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    I'm begining to think that the whole thing is a big PR lark and the other question which is bugging me is why so many 'humanitarians' are coming across as being so militant and 'up for a confrontation'?

    Whatever about the original motives, I am increasingly cynical and believe the 'good guys' motives were hijacked by a more sinister group (H).


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    #1564
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    strobe wrote: »
    Well it obviously was planned to some extent. You don't decide to launch a night assault, on a moving civilian freighter in international waters, when you had two weeks prior knowlege the freighter was coming, on the spur of the moment.

    You know well what i meant.

    And to be balanced, the Israeli assault and blockade are both illegal under international law.


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    #1565
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    I have been posting very regularly in this thread over the past couple of days, but I give up now.

    There are people here who will say and apparently believe anything as long as Israel is not blamed or held responsible for any of its actions.

    Apparently a country which is totally shielded and massively financed by the last superpower is always the victim when it is in conflict with a totally impoverished and isolated group of people.

    I give up.


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    #1566
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I have been posting very regularly in this thread over the past couple of days, but I give up now.

    There are people here who will say and apparently believe anything as long as Israel is not blamed or held responsible for any of its actions.

    Apparently a country which is totally shielded and massively financed by the last superpower is always the victim when it is in conflict with a totally impoverished and isolated group of people.

    I give up.

    I too give up considering most of the (I presume) Irish posters on here who are getting so excited but still cant see the reflection of Ulster in the Jordan.


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    #1567
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    I think it's very cynical and manipulative and disingenous to organise lobby and advocacy groups into posting on internet boards whlie presenting themselves as non affiliated individuals.

    If companies did that on here they would be banned for shill activity.

    I really think the same rule should apply to those doing so on behalf of foreign governments (or any government for that matter).

    Can you imagine Fianna Fail or the greens flooding Irish internet forums with supporters towing the party line in an underhanded organised focused kind of manner ?


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    #1568
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Morlar wrote: »
    I really think the same rule should apply to those doing so on behalf of foreign governments.

    Are you seriously suggesting that pro-Israeli groups are organising themselves to post here on Boards.ie? Wouldnt it be more likely that the likes of indie-media and their likes would do such a thing. I dont even know of a pro-Israel lobby in Ireland (outside of the Israeli Embassy of course ;))


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    #1569
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that pro-Israeli groups are organising themselves to post here on Boards.ie? Wouldnt it be more likely that the likes of indie-media and their likes would do such a thing. I dont even know of a pro-Israel lobby in Ireland (outside of the Israeli Embassy of course ;))

    It's actually not a joke, I seen this reported last year on places like Digg/Reddit. They have even developed software to organise themselves, it's actually quite sinister.

    Yea, just had a read through that Times article, it's all in there, software called 'Megaphone'


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    #1570
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that pro-Israeli groups are organising themselves to post here on Boards.ie?

    Yes. I think it's at least possible though without admin access probably hard to prove. Probably hard to prove with admin access to IP addresses etc also.

    Bear in mind this is one of the biggest internet boards in europe, and also one of the most google-search friendly.

    If you are saying that these groups don't exsist you are categorically wrong, here are 2 well known examples

    http://www.thejidf.org/
    http://www.giyus.org/

    Unless you are saying that they do exsist but just so happens haven't bothered with boards.ie for some unknown reason despite the amount of criticism israel periodically gets from the majority of Irish posters on here.


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    #1571
    galwaybabe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭galwaybabe


    Do we have to go hunting back through the threads to work who this individual is or can you not just name and shame? It's not like that lot have any respect for rules of the norm, such as human rights....


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    #1572
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Fair enough lads, didnt know that.

    Still thought, I try to make the point in ever heated argument that we should try, as much as we might dislike to, see things from the other persons point of view.

    Just because someone has an apposing point of view to your own, does not mean that it is a Government/Big business conspiracy.

    As I have been saying in every post so far in this thread, there are two sides to a coin. Some of the posts here, both pro and anti seem so utterly blinkered and fundamentalist that I despair for that part of the world.


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    #1573
    Indubitable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Indubitable


    galwaybabe wrote: »
    Do we have to go hunting back through the threads to work who this individual is or can you not just name and shame? It's not like that lot have any respect for rules of the norm, such as human rights....

    It shouldn't be too hard to find a suspect. Anyway we can't just presume someone is one of these Israeli posters based on a few coincidences.


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    #1574
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Hideous ape's concerns have been highlighted to those above.
    Please return to topic now.


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    #1575
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Jewbots..

    lol

    they invade our internet


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    #1576
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    Israelis on Primetime now saying they should toperdo the Irish ship:mad:, i tell you maybe we should toperdo these war criminals.


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    #1577
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    Israelis on Primetime now saying they should toperdo the Irish ship:mad:, i tell you maybe we should toperdo these war criminals.

    Well, if you wind up the torpedo, I'll row....


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    #1578
    Indubitable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Indubitable


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    Israelis on Primetime now saying they should toperdo the Irish ship:mad:, i tell you maybe we should toperdo these war criminals.

    Torpedoes are not enough, especially if that is what they are saying about the Irish ship.


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    #1579
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    Israelis on Primetime now saying they should toperdo the Irish ship:mad:, i tell you maybe we should toperdo these war criminals.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Well, if you wind up the torpedo, I'll row....

    It also showed the open in-fighting in the Knesset over the whole thing but don't let that stop the tarring..

    NOT ALL ISRAELIS THINK THE SAME WAY.


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    #1580
    Indubitable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Indubitable


    prinz wrote: »
    It also showed the open in-fighting in the Knesset over the whole thing but don't let that stop the tarring..

    What tarring?


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    #1581
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Memnoch wrote: »
    I just wanted to clear this up because this is very, very important... it wasn't self defence...

    Here is an interview with a journalist who saw everything as it happened.

    http://vodpod.com/watch/3760407-inte...e-mavi-marmara



    These reports seem to contradict Israeli claims that their commandos ONLY used live ammunition after being set upon by the protesters and that they only had paint ball guns to begin with.

    Interview starts about 45 seconds into the video. Interesting points at 2 minutes in and then 3:20 minutes in he talks about the sequence of what happened and who did what first. Around 5 minutes in he talks about how the Israelis left three critically injured people untreated for 3 hours despite repeated requests and allowed them to die.

    TBH this doesn't surprise me in the least, because the video released by the IDF showed the commandos boarding but not what had happened before that.

    Is it any surprise that the people in the ship tried to fight off the commandos after they had seen their fellow passengers shot and killed from above?

    It's also not surprising that the Israelis held these people for 3 days so that they could put their own spin on events without correction from those who were there.

    It's very important that people realise this...

    The Israelis fired FIRST and used LIVE ammunition. This myth that they were somehow acting in self-defence is completely false and a fabrication of the Israeli PR machine.

    I confess to serious reservations about the orders the Israeli soldiers received - for the very simple reason that several discrepancies have already been highlighted in the "official" Israeli story. I suspect that live ammunition was fired before any soldiers boarded the ship - for the very simple reason that A: The video footage is heavily edited, and B: Why the communications blackout? Why confiscate all evidence from the aid flotilla, if Israel behaved so impeccably?

    That's reason for serious concern, even before we consider the issue of International waters, and the kidnapping of citizens of sovereign states.

    There is no question in my mind that whatever Israeli official/s issued the order to board those ships has serious questions to answer. That has nothing to do with the individual soldiers right - even instinct - to self-defence, though!

    It seems to me that much of the media has already accepted the Israeli story - but if aid workers aboard other ships were victims of either assault aboard ship, or mistreatment while in illegal custody - then surely the edited video evidence presented thus far will lose any and all credibility!!

    Noreen


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    #1582
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    It also showed the open in-fighting in the Knesset over the whole thing but don't let that stop the tarring..

    ...I know, I should never tar the idea of Ireland torpedoing anything. I'll try to learn from your humourless example. Thanks for slapping me to my senses.
    prinz wrote: »
    NOT ALL ISRAELIS THINK THE SAME WAY. ..

    No!!!!....Despite my years of reading and posting information from B'tselem, Yesh Din and Hamoked, the idea never dawned on me....


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    #1583
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    prinz wrote: »
    NOT ALL ISRAELIS THINK THE SAME WAY.


    I don't think that has ever been in dispute in fairness prinz. Part of the catalyst of this problem is there is an extremely right wing party in power at this time.


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    #1584
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    karma_ wrote: »
    I don't think that has ever been in dispute in fairness prinz. Part of the catalyst of this problem is there is an extremely right wing party in power at this time.

    Exactly. Just something that needs to be reinforced IMO, as the anti-Israeli atmosphere grows and grows. Anger shoud be directed where it is due.


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    #1585
    Indubitable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Indubitable


    prinz wrote: »
    It also showed the open in-fighting in the Knesset over the whole thing but don't let that stop the tarring..

    NOT ALL ISRAELIS THINK THE SAME WAY.

    No tarring involved in the quotes in your post. War criminals were mentioned not the Israeli population in general.


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    #1586
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    kingofthe3rdyrs wrote: »
    No tarring involved in the quotes in your post. War criminals were mentioned not the Israeli population in general.

    So the Israelis featured on PrimeTime were all war criminals? Good to know.


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    #1587
    Clawdeeus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Clawdeeus


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

    IDF confiscated this off some activists on another boat. Hard to see if they have knives, does look pretty nasty though.

    Out of curiosity, does anyone know how countries usually stop boats that are breaking a blocade? Can they be towed in another direction or something? Thats a serious question.


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    #1588
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    prinz wrote: »
    So the Israelis featured on PrimeTime were all war criminals? Good to know.
    True, plus leave someone in a seige mentality long enough and they'll see reds under the bed everywhere. Human nature and both peoples in that land have been living with their own sieges since birth. It takes a lot to change it and all it needs to stop change is a small enough group of at the top to keep that fear going. They just need to stoke it and it takes little fuel to do so.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1589
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, does anyone know how countries usually stop boats that are breaking a blocade? Can they be towed in another direction or something? Thats a serious question.
    Hard to do. Ships are big and take a lot of turning. I cant see how one would guide a ship without gaining cooperation from the crew or commandeering the vessel first. You could stop it, sink or cripple it. Torpedos and the like, but otherwise I personally cant see how.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1590
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Hard to do. Ships are big and take a lot of turning. I cant see how one would guide a ship without gaining cooperation from the crew or commandeering the vessel first. You could stop it, sink or cripple it. Torpedos and the like, but otherwise I personally cant see how.

    I honestly think a show of force in open waters with some Israeli naval vessels would have been enough. It would have allowed the flotilla to get it's point across and no one had to die. I think only the most skeptical folk on boards would admit that these boats set out with the best intentions, I don't believe they ever had it in mind to force their way past any actual blockade, a quick scan over some of teh passengers on board would have confirmed this, and we already know that Israeli intelligence had a fair idea who was present.


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    #1591
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    I too give up considering most of the (I presume) Irish posters on here who are getting so excited but still cant see the reflection of Ulster in the Jordan.

    I see the reflection - which is why I acknowledged that Israel has a right to protect its' border from terrorist attack.

    However, any similarity to Northern Ireland ends when you compare lists of "permitted" goods, and "blockades" whose legality seems to be, at best, questionable!

    I genuinely believe that many people - both Israeli and Palestinian - want peace.
    Unfortunately, just like Northern Ireland, radical elements are controlling the situation.

    This is where I believe the International community could possibly be instrumental in "Brokering" a peace deal. Unfortunately, I can't see this happening, unless the International Community also put diplomatic pressure on the USA to behave impartially in this conflict. Until that happens, the bloodshed will continue, and innocent victims will continue to suffer on both sides of the border.:mad:

    As the song says "Those who give the orders, are not the ones to die"........
    That says it all, really.

    Noreen


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