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Aid Floatillas Attacked

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, does anyone know how countries usually stop boats that are breaking a blocade? Can they be towed in another direction or something? Thats a serious question.

    Torpedo.

    I don't know why some other system is not used. You'd imagine netting or some sort of boom on the sea could be invented


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I see the reflection - which is why I acknowledged that Israel has a right to protect its' border from terrorist attack.

    However, any similarity to Northern Ireland ends when you compare lists of "permitted" goods, and "blockades" whose legality seems to be, at best, questionable!

    Really? I can clearly remember British Soldiers forensically taking cars apart to "Look for contraband" at every border crossing, well the ones they left open (they blew up bridges all along the border in the 70's to prevent traffic crossing in areas they could not patrol).

    There are similarities everywhere in this sad, sad situation, most notably the 'tit for tat' violence and the contineous blame game and 'who did what first'. The "who fired first?" question about the boats reminds me of another example.


    Oh, and it is the Occupied six counties, not Northern Ireland ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Clawdeeus


    karma_ wrote: »
    I honestly think a show of force in open waters with some Israeli naval vessels would have been enough. It would have allowed the flotilla to get it's point across and no one had to die. I think only the most skeptical folk on boards would admit that these boats set out with the best intentions, I don't believe they ever had it in mind to force their way past any actual blockade, a quick scan over some of teh passengers on board would have confirmed this, and we already know that Israeli intelligence had a fair idea who was present.



    I do think there might have been some on board willing to call an Israeli bluff on that on (if bluff it be). Regardless, the entire incident was handled about as badly as it could have been even the time of the assault is awful (at night, causing more confusion and probablly danger to everyone, troops included.) Cant see the reasoning behind the planning or execution at all.

    Figured there wasnt a way to turn the ship, or drag it away. Although disabling a propeller shouldnt be too hard. Better not say anything more, I have zero knowledge about this.

    Interestingly its just came out that one of those killed was a US citizen. Wonder if it will spark anything in the US public? After that lady was killed trying to stop a doctor's home being bulldozed in the Westbank, public opinion took a small dip. Hilary Clinton on the day of the attack seemed to take as hard a line as can be expected from a US official, Biden back pedaled yesterday in an interview, so it will be interesting to see if this tips the scales a little.


  • Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭terenc


    I'm begining to think that the whole thing is a big PR lark and the other question which is bugging me is why so many 'humanitarians' are coming across as being so militant and 'up for a confrontation'?

    Whatever about the original motives, I am increasingly cynical and believe the 'good guys' motives were hijacked by a more sinister group (H).

    I don't have any great understanding of this con flick but was sort of leaning to wards the boats and humanitarian aid it was carrying. Then I read tonight on the way home that the Turkish Islamic charity behind the flotilla of Gaza aid had clear links to terror groups and this comes from a French former senior anti terrorism judge. (Jean -Louis Bruguiere)
    Was it hijacked ?.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Clawdeeus


    terenc wrote: »
    I don't have any great understanding of this con flick but was sort of leaning to wards the boats and humanitarian aid it was carrying. Then I read tonight on the way home that the Turkish Islamic charity behind the flotilla of Gaza aid had clear links to terror groups and this comes from a French former senior anti terrorism judge. (Jean -Louis Bruguiere)
    Was it hijacked ?.

    Well their connection to Hamas is there yes, but if there were weapons on the boat or anything that could conceivably be made into a rocket Im certain the Israelis would have released the information very quickly.

    Also, Israeli secret service implied a link with Al Qaeda, I think this can be disregarded, considering the group operates in Turkey and Turkey has had several attacks which al Qaeda have claimed responsibility for.

    I do agree that there were those on board who were itching for some kind of confrontation, although I doubt there were 19 ( is that how many it is now?) were willing to martyr themselves. And this would have been very clear to Isreali forces, they should have acted accordingly, to prevent an international relations (and humanitarian) disaster.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Clawdeeus


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Really? I can clearly remember British Soldiers forensically taking cars apart to "Look for contraband" at every border crossing, well the ones they left open (they blew up bridges all along the border in the 70's to prevent traffic crossing in areas they could not patrol).

    There are similarities everywhere in this sad, sad situation, most notably the 'tit for tat' violence and the contineous blame game and 'who did what first'. The "who fired first?" question about the boats reminds me of another example.


    Oh, and it is the Occupied six counties, not Northern Ireland ;)

    Interestingly "tit for tat" was Israeli policy up untill recently, since about the invasion of southern Lebanon and the blocade on Gaza the doctrine has been "hit back harder than they can". Sadly, I can see why, but equally I can see why it dosnt help, and will only provoke a reacion. Disproportionality has been thrown around as an insult alot (see Iraq/Afghan wars the attack on Gaza) however it is a strategy to some people.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Interestingly its just came out that one of those killed was a US citizen. Wonder if it will spark anything in the US public?

    I doubt it. Those who would react badly to it are already reacting badly to the Israeli raid, and those who say 'Well, they were daft' aren't likely to make an exception just because the person's American.

    NTM


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    On vincent Browne now lads, Israeli guy wont stop shouting over the other guest, vincent telling him shut up, well done vincent.
    Scumbag wont keep quiet vincent will have to get him off.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    Vincent says if he doesnt shut up they will go to break and kick the scumbag off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    That girl on the right is wiping the floor with everyone else.....fair play.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/hamas-flotilla-aid-israel

    So let me get this straight, Israel didnt want the ships to dock, Egypt didnt want the ships to dock and the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Hamas, didnt want the ships to dock.

    Still stinks of a stunt to me and as far as i know, anyone killed on the ships were intelligent adults there by their own consent.

    I give up, give me back the "Troubles".

    EDIT. Sure the "Marchin" season is nearly upon us, not so bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Indubitable


    Vincent says if he doesnt shut up they will go to break and kick the scumbag off.

    Which guy is he?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    strobe wrote: »
    That girl on the right is wiping the floor with everyone else.....fair play.

    She looks like shes filthy in bed too....

    :D

    And goodnight all.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    :D:D:D Vincent is kicking him off, cant shut his mouth spouting propaganda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    :D:D:D Vincent is kicking him off, cant shut his mouth spouting propaganda.

    Wow...it really is like watching two white South African apartheid sympathizers justifying that apartheid is ok and that Ireland should be grateful to crawl in their shadow!

    Who is the slimey hunchback creepy guy still in the studio?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Them Zionists on Vincent Brown really are despicable creatures to put it mildly


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    I had the misfortune to stumble across a Fox news article while looking for an update on the Rachel Corrie.
    (It was too late to click the back button when I realised..)

    Here is the spin they are feeding their readers -
    Robert Margolis, an expert in international maritime law based out of Vancouver, Canada, said no boats, including civilian and enemy vessels, can enter a blockaded area when a maritime blockade is in effect.

    "Israel is acting under the customary maritime law of blockade," Margolis told FoxNews.com. "You're allowed to do that; they declared a blockade over a port."

    Margolis said Israel is acting "completely" within guidelines of blockades under international maritime law. Any vessel that violates a blockade, including the Rachel Corrie, may be captured, boarded or even attacked under international law.
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/03/second-aid-ship-reportedly-headed-gaza/#content

    "..You're allowed to do that.." lol... well that's ok then, thanks for clearing that up!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    So let me get this straight, Israel didnt want the ships to dock, Egypt didnt want the ships to dock and the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Hamas, didnt want the ships to dock.

    Still stinks of a stunt to me and as far as i know, anyone killed on the ships were intelligent adults there by their own consent.

    I give up, give me back the "Troubles".
    Dude, you're seriously putting a spin on that.

    What Hamas actually said(according to the article you linked):
    "Hamas has said it will not permit the supplies to enter the besieged territory until all detained activists are released and Israel agrees to deliver all aid consignments, including construction materials."

    What you say Hamas said:
    "We didn't want the ships to dock"

    Do you notice a huge massive difference between the two?

    That's what makes people mistrustful of your posts :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    No "Dude" that is not what I said, you have simplified the point I was making and taken it out of context for your own conspiracy theorist reasons.

    That's what makes people mistrustful of your posts

    Well if trying to strike a balance and moderate some of the more fanatical posters ON BOTH SIDES makes you mistrustful of my posts then I shall leave you to be mistrustful all you like in your bunker while wearing your tinfoil hat and blazing out all your mistrust of others.

    Goodnight Sir.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    No "Dude" that is not what I said, you have simplified the point I was making and taken it out of context for your own conspiracy theorist reasons.
    Yes "Dude" that is what you said.

    Your post:
    "Hamas, didnt want the ships to dock."
    Taken exactly from your post.

    Why are you now trying to pretend you didn't in fact, say that?
    Also, what conspiracy theory am I promulgating?



    Well if trying to strike a balance and moderate some of the more fanatical posters ON BOTH SIDES makes you mistrustful of my posts then I shall leave you to be mistrustful all you like in your bunker while wearing your tinfoil hat and blazing out all your mistrust of others.

    Goodnight Sir.
    No, completely misrepresenting what a news article said for your own reasons makes me mistrustful of your post(s).
    What about that requires me have a bunker and wear a tinfoil hat, when it's quite clear you have in fact done exactly that?

    Let's reiterate.

    What you said the guardian article stated:
    Hamas, didnt want the ships to dock.

    What the Guardian article actually stated:
    Hamas has said it will not permit the supplies to enter the besieged territory until all detained activists are released and Israel agrees to deliver all aid consignments, including construction materials.

    That's spin. Unadulterated spin.
    It's not trying to mediate or moderate, it's not trying to see both sides, it's blatantly misrepresenting an article to make it back up your own point and your own view.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    It also showed the open in-fighting in the Knesset over the whole thing but don't let that stop the tarring..

    You mean like all the disgusting tarring of the activists, as terrorists, or even of being Al Qaeda by the Israeli government, despite those accusations being complete and utter lies. If thats what you mean, I haven't see such an equivalent being directed at Israel in this instance.
    prinz wrote: »
    NOT ALL ISRAELIS THINK THE SAME WAY.

    Don't remember anyone saying otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭recylingbin


    I think we should all stfu and let the Israelis do as they please. They need their lebensraum.
    It's not like anybody gets hurt when a country expands a little as their parents and grandparents could tell you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wow...it really is like watching two white South African apartheid sympathizers justifying that apartheid is ok and that Ireland should be grateful to crawl in their shadow!

    Who is the slimey hunchback creepy guy still in the studio?

    The last time I saw that head from UCD, he'd managed to accuse Robert Fisk of the blood libel against the Jews. He was pro-Iraq war as well, as far as I remember.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I confess to serious reservations about the orders the Israeli soldiers received - for the very simple reason that several discrepancies have already been highlighted in the "official" Israeli story. I suspect that live ammunition was fired before any soldiers boarded the ship - for the very simple reason that A: The video footage is heavily edited, and B: Why the communications blackout? Why confiscate all evidence from the aid flotilla, if Israel behaved so impeccably?

    That's reason for serious concern, even before we consider the issue of International waters, and the kidnapping of citizens of sovereign states.

    There is no question in my mind that whatever Israeli official/s issued the order to board those ships has serious questions to answer. That has nothing to do with the individual soldiers right - even instinct - to self-defence, though!

    It seems to me that much of the media has already accepted the Israeli story - but if aid workers aboard other ships were victims of either assault aboard ship, or mistreatment while in illegal custody - then surely the edited video evidence presented thus far will lose any and all credibility!!

    Noreen

    Yup, and this proves one thing, the Israelis have become such masters of the spin machine that they can do anything they want and get away with it.

    I mean they launched a commando assault in the middle of the night on innocent aid workers, killed a bunch of them, brutalised all the rest.

    Then they used the fact that they destroyed all the evidence and kidnapped 600 people and kept them out of touch for 3 days to paint their own soldiers as some kind of heros and the mainstream media didn't challenge the countless holes in their narrative.

    That's the difference between Gandhi and today. If Gandhi was alive today, the brits would have probably sent in operatives to shoot him or blow him up long before he could make a difference and then would have spun it somehow that it was some extremist who killed him.

    State police and military all around the world have become adept at breaking up peaceful civil protest while portraying the protesters as violent people who "forced" the police to take action. It's disgusting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Really? I can clearly remember British Soldiers forensically taking cars apart to "Look for contraband" at every border crossing, well the ones they left open (they blew up bridges all along the border in the 70's to prevent traffic crossing in areas they could not patrol).

    There are similarities everywhere in this sad, sad situation, most notably the 'tit for tat' violence and the contineous blame game and 'who did what first'. The "who fired first?" question about the boats reminds me of another example.


    Oh, and it is the Occupied six counties, not Northern Ireland ;)

    I remember being searched when crossing the border - I don't remember any ruling on "essential foods", though!

    Neither do I remember people having to live in tents, irrespective of their political opinions, because they weren't allowed to rebuild their homes!

    "There are similarities everywhere in this sad, sad situation, most notably the 'tit for tat' violence and the contineous blame game and 'who did what first'. The "who fired first?" question about the boats reminds me of another example."

    Agreed - but there are also some pretty extreme differences!

    Noreen


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Yup, and this proves one thing, the Israelis have become such masters of the spin machine that they can do anything they want and get away with it.

    I mean they launched a commando assault in the middle of the night on innocent aid workers, killed a bunch of them, brutalised all the rest.

    Then they used the fact that they destroyed all the evidence and kidnapped 600 people and kept them out of touch for 3 days to paint their own soldiers as some kind of heros and the mainstream media didn't challenge the countless holes in their narrative.

    That's the difference between Gandhi and today. If Gandhi was alive today, the brits would have probably sent in operatives to shoot him or blow him up long before he could make a difference and then would have spun it somehow that it was some extremist who killed him.

    State police and military all around the world have become adept at breaking up peaceful civil protest while portraying the protesters as violent people who "forced" the police to take action. It's disgusting.


    I'd broadly agree with this - though I'm withholding final judgement until I hear the evidence from people on the other ships. It's not that I condone Israeli actions, but in the interest of making an impartial judgement, I have to acknowledge the possibility that some extremists might have been aboard the Mavi Marmara.

    Noreen


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭nice1franko


    From http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/cal81/member_of_the_israeli_parliament_who_was_on_board/

    Redditors,

    We are shocked at the amount of anti-semitism being voiced on your website, and feel the need to set the record straight. The IDF has incontrovertible evidence that the flotillas were armed to the teeth, ready to kill Israeli citizens on a moment’s notice.

    Flares of mass destruction

    There is no legitimate reason why seabound vessels would EVER carry emergency flares. The flares were clearly going to be used in the manufacturing of rockets that would be fired at Israeli cities.

    Slingshots of mass destruction

    This screenshot of slingshots and glass jars full of rocks was definitely not a fabrication that builds on the stereotype of Palestinians being a bunch of primitive stone throwers. Militant activist ships load up on slingshots and rocks all the time. In fact, just last week Greenpeace sent 5000 slingshots to help overthrow Kim Jong Il. Israel has a right to defend itself and we will not allow this to happen to our country.

    Kitchen knives and a very scary looking Arabian dagger

    Notice how they are conveniently placed on top of a muslim flag, right next to a conveniently placed keffiyeh. If this doesn’t prove that scary muslims are out to kill you, I don’t know what will. Muslims. MUSLIMS!!1

    Perhaps the most sinister of the weaponry found on board, was this glass bottle, capable of holding enough toxic gas to wipe out an entire continent. Or enough high fructose corn syrup to make a gerbil overweight. Either way, Israel had to act.

    Look guys, here are the facts:
    The IDF only receives $6 billion per year in funding from the USA, a mere 30% of total foreign aid. We simply do not have the resources to fake footage of rusty knives, bottles and rocks. The IDF would not do this. The IDF has never lied in the past and it never will. The bottom line is that those flotillas were carrying pebbles of mass destruction, and Israel has every right to defend itself in any way it sees fit. You can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, and you can’t run a peaceful democracy without killing a few activists.

    Yours sincerely,

    The Anti Defamation League.

    P.S. You are all anti-semites.
    :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭joesoap007


    some news

    Three Israeli naval were tailing the rachel corrie ... but still have not boarded her yet.shes 40 miles away from gaza but they have jamed their radar.dont no how true the report is tho.

    radar jammed is bad,hope they dont hit anything like sandbars or run aground.

    hope their all safe

    anyone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Silverado


    It is daylight, viability is good and they will be using a GPS chartplotter. They know exactly where they are so the lack of radar is no problem. They have probably jammed their communications too, that could be a problem.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39 Eibhin70


    08:52 (Israeli time)
    IDF: We have sighted the 'Rachel Corrie' and have radioed it to identify itself (Reuters)


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