Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

karma_

Irlandese wrote: »

Talking about blinkers, we should remember that these highly trained commandos arrived
WITHOUT their standard assault rifles, obviously only equipped for minor difficulty, with paintball "toy" guns and their standard issue side arms.
The IDF intention was clearly different to that of the small cadre of organised violent extremists who attacked them and put the commandos' lives at risk, including with their own pistols, taken from their holsters, not their hands.
That the IDF commandos held off for so long is a mystery to those of us who have worked in the field and know the drill.
So, yes, by all means, take off those blinkers, friend.......

I'm not sure that is completely accurate, there was a witness account video posted from an American politician who confirmed that teh commandos arrived with both standard rifles and some were also equipped with paintball guns.

marius

bambooze wrote: »

I'd say its a fair assumption that being captured by that mob would not really be considered good for ones health.

Again - we will have to wait for all the facts to emerge...but just on the above...I would say it is a fair assumption that it was not good for their health - piracy rarely is, I would say it is not a fair assumption that their lives were in danger - for one - they had been captured and not killed.

Secondly it was obviously not the captured Pirates who opened fire - it was the others - whose lives we can presume were not in danger...so the deaths cannot have been in self defence...

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

“Look at what appears to have been a very serious military error made by the German army in Northern Afghanistan last year when something like 50-150 civilians were killed in an air strike,” he said.

“Where was the independent inquiry about that? Where were the calls for an independent inquiry about that? Why is it that Israel is subjected to that kind of call when other democratic countries aren’t?”

Here you go. Next red herring?

The UN mission in Afghanistan, headed by Peter Galbraith, also dispatched its own investigation, emphasising that "the families of the victims must receive all the help they need''.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/200995519059421.html

bambooze

karma_ wrote: »

I'm not sure that is completely accurate, there was a witness account video posted from an American politician who confirmed that teh commandos arrived with both standard rifles and some were also equipped with paintball guns.

The same soldiers though? Meaning some had sidearms, paintball guns AND standard rifles? I think its a given that those who went in after it all went pear shaped were armed to the teeth.

bambooze

marius wrote: »

I would say it is not a fair assumption that their lives were in danger - for one - they had been captured and not killed.

I would not agree with that - given the video showing them being pulverised with metal bars by multiple assailants, its quite reasonable to believe they were very much in danger of being killed once dragged out of sight, if even they were still alive at that point which from the brutality in the video must surely have been a considered possibility.

Scofflaw

Irlandese wrote: »

Talking about blinkers, we should remember that these highly trained commandos arrived
WITHOUT their standard assault rifles, obviously only equipped for minor difficulty, with paintball "toy" guns and their standard issue side arms.
The IDF intention was clearly different to that of the small cadre of organised violent extremists who attacked them and put the commandos' lives at risk, including with their own pistols, taken from their holsters, not their hands.
That the IDF commandos held off for so long is a mystery to those of us who have worked in the field and know the drill.
So, yes, by all means, take off those blinkers, friend.......

Unfortunately, a lot of that has been shown not to be the case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Well there is this although it talks about 3 soldiers not 4 and other differences so the situation is still not clear..
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-navy-3-commandos-nearly-taken-hostage-in-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.294114

Its not clear because your own Government and Forces are not telling you the truth. That should worry you a lot.

Scofflaw

bambooze wrote: »

The same soldiers though? Meaning some had sidearms, paintball guns AND standard rifles? I think its a given that those who went in after it all went pear shaped were armed to the teeth.

No, the gentleman in question said that "they were carrying machine guns and pistols...a couple of them had paintball guns".

In other words, the majority were armed with deadly weapons, and only a couple with the much-touted paintball guns. So it seems the paintball guns are being touted a lot more by Israel's PR defenders than they were being touted by the defenders of Israel's PR, if you see what I mean.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

Irlandese wrote: »

This is a very important point. Thank you Nodin. So, under those nice Hamas guys, we can now look forward to the public stoning of women accused of adultery in the squares of Gaza and the withdrawal of all females from schools, work-places and their enclosure within rooms in homes, swathed in Burkas and subject to all kinds of medievil ignorancy, poverty and abuse? Lovely !

They're off to a slow start then, what with the complete absence of stonings, evictions from education, employment, etc.

bambooze

gandalf wrote: »

Its not clear because your own Government and Forces are not telling you the truth. That should worry you a lot.

Not clear because conflict rarely is and it will take time to piece together a precise account of all events that transpired and in what order (its not a computer game with a log file they can just trawl through) particularly as some of those involved are still in hospital with serious injuries. More details are emerging from both sides and they don't all conflict.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

They're off to a slow start then, what with the complete absence of stonings, evictions from education, employment, etc.

Not at all as slow as you think, look it up.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Not clear because conflict rarely is and it will take time to piece together a precise account of all events that transpired and in what order (its not a computer game with a log file they can just trawl through) particularly as some of those involved are still in hospital with serious injuries. More details are emerging from both sides and they don't all conflict.

Well, you see the constantly changing story is evidence of lieing by the IDF. It is that simple really. The IDF could have waited to get there story straight, but they wanted to manage the narrative to get there own version of events out there, and hence the heavily edited video's and stealing the other guys footage, and holding them (until the Turkish government intervened), but this failed pretty badly, and now we are seeing the IDF back tracking on various lies they made, and coming up new lies to take there place and what not. The IDF version of events stinks a great a deal, and constantly changing there story does them no favours, and there propoganda has been a laughable failure.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

I would not agree with that - given the video showing them being pulverised with metal bars by multiple assailants, its quite reasonable to believe they were very much in danger of being killed once dragged out of sight, if even they were still alive at that point which from the brutality in the video must surely have been a considered possibility.

But given we have reports from some of the people on the boat that people were killed before the boarding this you can assume that this could have enraged those on that top deck as well.

Scofflaw

bambooze wrote: »

Not at all as slow as you think, look it up.

Enough with the "Hamas, they're so bad" routine, you and Irlandese. It's off topic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

bambooze

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, the gentleman in question said that "they were carrying machine guns and pistols...a couple of them had paintball guns".

Which is still unclear to me - did he actually say they all had machine guns and pistols and a couple had paintguns ALSO? Or some had only paintguns and the rest had only machine guns (and pistols in both cases).

Also where was this on the timeline? How do we know that any he saw with machine guns were not those that landed after things turned bad?

LordSutch

The 'Rachel Corrie' is due to arrive off Gaza today, she has been warned that she will not be allowed to birth there, but she continues :cool:

bambooze

wes wrote: »

Well, you see the constantly changing story is evidence of lieing by the IDF. It is that simple really. The IDF could have waited to get there story straight, but they wanted to manage the narrative to get there own version of events out there, and hence the heavily edited video's and stealing the other guys footage, and holding them (until the Turkish government intervened), but this failed pretty badly, and now we are seeing the IDF back tracking on various lies they made, and coming up new lies to take there place and what not. The IDF version of events stinks a great a deal, and constantly changing there story does them no favours, and there propoganda has been a laughable failure.

But if they had delayed for a full investigation to "get their stories straight" you'd all be claiming the delay was only so they cover up the evidence. So really it matters not what they say or when, you will find an excuse to discount its validity.

karma_

bambooze wrote: »

Which is still unclear to me - did he actually say they all had machine guns and pistols and a couple had paintguns ALSO? Or some had only paintguns and the rest had only machine guns (and pistols in both cases).

Also where was this on the timeline? How do we know that any he saw with machine guns were not those that landed after things turned bad?

I do not know why you find it unclear, there is nothing ambiguous about what he said.

bambooze

karma_ wrote: »

I do not know why you find it unclear, there is nothing ambiguous about what he said.

I don't know what he said, I have only seen what people here said he said and that is unclear to me.

karma_

bambooze wrote: »

I don't know what he said, I have only seen what people here said he said and that is unclear to me.

It's been quoted multiple times in this thread, there is also a video of teh interview in this thread also, maybe you should go and have a look?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

But if they had delayed for a full investigation to "get their stories straight" you'd all be claiming the delay was only so they cover up the evidence. So really it matters not what they say or when, you will find an excuse to discount its validity.

bambooze your arguments are getting ridiculous now. Your now saying they are right to lie because people would say they are covering up evidence?

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

bambooze your arguments are getting ridiculous now. Your now saying they are right to lie because people would say they are covering up evidence?

Not even remotely close to what I said.

the_syco

Camelot wrote: »

The 'Rachel Corrie' is due to arrive off Gaza today, she has been warned that she will not be allowed to birth there, but she continues :cool:

Wonder what will happen?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

Not even remotely close to what I said.

Maybe I took you up wrong then. If so then I apologise. Maybe you could clarify the post to explain what you meant.

Eibhin70

the_syco wrote: »

Wonder what will happen?

Well jaysus, those poor Palestinian will have starved to death waiting for the Rachel Corrie to arrive....how blinkin' long has it taken them? It reminds me of the County Council workers fixing the potholes on the road......FOREVER:rolleyes:

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Not clear because conflict rarely is and it will take time to piece together a precise account of all events that transpired and in what order (its not a computer game with a log file they can just trawl through) particularly as some of those involved are still in hospital with serious injuries. More details are emerging from both sides and they don't all conflict.

But then why drip feed partial information in the forms of videos with notations that only show a very limited view of the whole operation?

Why make accusations about some of the organisations on board and then retract them?

I fear the reason is to make the news in the US for shock headlines with the full knowledge that any retractions will only be footnotes if even present at a later stage in their broadcasts.

I expect propaganda and spin from people who are classified as terrorists not a Government that is meant to abide by International Law.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

Maybe I took you up wrong then. If so then I apologise. Maybe you could clarify the post to explain what you meant.

I mean if they delay the release of info they get accused of orchestrating a coverup and when they release incomplete info (because they did not yet gather all info and complete their investigation) sooner they get accused of a coverup.. either way, nobody believes them.

Scofflaw

bambooze wrote: »

Which is still unclear to me - did he actually say they all had machine guns and pistols and a couple had paintguns ALSO? Or some had only paintguns and the rest had only machine guns (and pistols in both cases).

Also where was this on the timeline? How do we know that any he saw with machine guns were not those that landed after things turned bad?

Transcripted:

Nobody had any arms of any kind whatsoever that I ever saw, and ever displayed any. The Israelis came in in their helmets and their combat suits. They carried machine guns, and pistols, and stun grenades, and things like that. And a couple of them had paintball guns...uh..two of the paintballs hit one of the members of our party...

That's at 1:31 on this video. The speaker is Edward Peck, former Chief of Mission in Baghdad under Carter and former Deputy Director of President Reagan's White House Task Force on Terrorism.

The point about the arms carried by the IDF soldiers are repeated in an interview he gave on return to the US here.

regards,
Scofflaw

doncarlos

the_syco wrote: »

Wonder what will happen?

I'd guess the boat will be disabled and boarded peacefully. The ship will then be towed to Israel where the aid will be stripped to what the Israelis feel is necessary and will be delivered to Gaza

sceptre

bambooze wrote: »

I mean if they delay the release of info they get accused of orchestrating a coverup and when they release incomplete info (because they did not yet gather all info and complete their investigation) sooner they get accused of a coverup.. either way, nobody believes them.

Best option seems to be to release the full unedited video footage then without piddling about.