Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

I mean if they delay the release of info they get accused of orchestrating a coverup and when they release incomplete info (because they did not yet gather all info and complete their investigation) sooner they get accused of a coverup.. either way, nobody believes them.

Incomplete is not the same as false. Also representing incomplete information as fact is also dishonest.
I would agree that withholding information may be viewed as a cover-up though.

hideous ape

sceptre wrote: »

Best option seems to be to release the full unedited video footage then without piddling about.

Ya most people like to watch a movie from the start. Watching a movie from halfway through always means you haven't got the full story and you have missed the most important bits. The start of a movie is necessary to make any sense of the middle or more importantly the dead ending.

So those of us democratic, international law abiding citizens of the world will wait for the full DVD release so we can watch the movie in it's entirety. We can then judge for ourselves if it is a good or bad movie. My gut instinct is that it is an extremely bad and highly illegal movie but it's makers are using this trailer to drum up interest. I think most of the world thinks the same...well accept Fox News but those guys get confused when you try to explain to them that the Sun is not the Moon during daylight. A bit slow...

Can't wait to see this blockbuster!

I wonder when IDF Productions will be releasing it?

LordSutch

doncarlos wrote: »

I'd guess the boat will be disabled and boarded peacefully. The ship will then be towed to Israel where the aid will be stripped to what the Israelis feel is necessary and will be delivered to Gaza

How very cynical :cool:

bambooze

sceptre wrote: »

Best option seems to be to release the full unedited video footage then without piddling about.

But which video? Reports say they confiscated cams, phones etc. from the 600 people on board.. so possibly quite a lot of hardware which I would imagine will take quite some time to go through to extract whatever evidence there may be. Note that the more recent vids they released were filmed on board, they were not idf vids. There are also quite legitimate reasons to edit whatever vids they find (theirs and from those on board), besides hiding evidence even if not everyone is happy about that.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

There are also quite legitimate reasons to edit whatever vids they find (theirs and from those on board), besides hiding evidence even if not everyone is happy about that.

What legitimate reasons?

Fuhrer

doncarlos wrote: »

What legitimate reasons?

Hiding evidence.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

But if they had delayed for a full investigation to "get their stories straight" you'd all be claiming the delay was only so they cover up the evidence. So really it matters not what they say or when, you will find an excuse to discount its validity.

Now, its very simple, if the IDF released all avaliable footage right away (including the flotilla peoples footage), then they would be seen to have nothing to hide, but those chose to show heavily edited footage, and have been constantly changing there story, which is clear indication that they are lieing and considering the IDF rep, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Not at all as slow as you think, look it up.

I'd love to see evidence of any - knock yourself out.

Fuhrer

wes wrote: »

Now, its very simple, if the IDF released all avaliable footage right away (including the flotilla peoples footage), then they would be seen to have nothing to hide, but those chose to show heavily edited footage, and have been constantly changing there story, which is clear indication that they are lieing and considering the IDF rep, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

They also refused to release the raw footage of it as well, so any TV station around the world had to broadcast the video with all the IDFs hyperbolic and misleading captions.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

But which video? Reports say they confiscated cams, phones etc. from the 600 people on board.. so possibly quite a lot of hardware which I would imagine will take quite some time to go through to extract whatever evidence there may be. Note that the more recent vids they released were filmed on board, they were not idf vids. There are also quite legitimate reasons to edit whatever vids they find (theirs and from those on board), besides hiding evidence even if not everyone is happy about that.

Nonsense, utter, UTTER nonsense.

This is the kind of stuff that really enrages me.

There is no justification for Israel confiscating all the photographic evidence. There is no justification for Israel releasing only edited footage that shows it in a "good light."

(unless your only interest is to make sure Israel does not have to take any responsibility or face any sanction for its actions)

The only reason they do this is because they have committed a terribly atrocity and are doing their damnedest to cover it up.

But as much I hate what the Israelis are doing I'm absolutely SEETHING at people who go on forums or on the news or anywhere else and try to pretend that this is just "par from the course," and that there are "perfectly innocent and valid reasons" for those accused of a horrible crime to be in charge of controlling all of the objective evidence of the crime.

It's not just ludicrious, it's dishonest to the point of malevolence. And that's honestly the strongest language I think I can get away with without being infarcted or banned to express my outrage at the level of intellectual gymnastics involved here.

I await a red-herring off topic response featuring NATO or China or some other agency that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

But which video?

Release everything unedited.

Reports say they confiscated cams, phones etc. from the 600 people on board.. so possibly quite a lot of hardware which I would imagine will take quite some time to go through to extract whatever evidence there may be.

Extract evidence to back up their version of events rather than allow people see the un-edited version and confirm what they are saying is true.

There are also quite legitimate reasons to edit whatever vids they find (theirs and from those on board), besides hiding evidence even if not everyone is happy about that.

But again they are leaving themselves open to the charge they are hiding evidence. Which I believe they are btw.

How can anyone expect a open and fair investigation into this if the Israeli authorities are selectively editing footage and drip feeding in the manner that they have been.

How can anyone expect Israel to carry out a proper, full and robust investigation based on what we have seen so far this week.

There has to be an International UN based Investigation into the Illegal operation mounted by Israel at the start of this week.

rugbyman

Dont mean to sidetrack , but though i am fairly well read on world matters. I have only just become aware that Egypt has been operating a land blockade on aid reaching Gaza(untill a few days ago).

Why are there not protests outside embasies and such like against Egypt?


Regards,Rugbyman

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

They also refused to release the raw footage of it as well, so any TV station around the world had to broadcast the video with all the IDFs hyperbolic and misleading captions.

Mind pointing out which captions on that vid were misleading?

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

Mind pointing out which captions on that vid were misleading?

More brilliant diversion.

Let's focus on the tiny tiny details and defend those till the death. Let's ignore the bigger picture, like the fact that the video is edited to show 15-30 seconds of footage out of an hour long siege in which 9 people were killed, but the most important thing for everyone to see, is not how the people were killed but how those doing the killing were perfectly justified. Without actually looking at the killings themselves, or indeed what happened before the so called justification.

Dishonest and disingenuous and I'm tired of pandering to it and pretending that it isn't going on.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

What legitimate reasons?

For example..

Lets say you were on that boat and your cam/phone was confiscated and on that there are pics or video of your girlfriend in a bikini - is that relevant to this incident? Would you really want that all over youtube? I would say not.. legitimate reason to edit.

Lets say some video (idf or other) shows someone mortally wounded, brains spilling onto the deck - would you want to see that? If that was your son/brother/father/whatever, would you want that to be youtube entertainment? Is there really any reason why the public needs to see it? I'd say edit the nasty stuff out - I do not want to see it.

Lets say the vid reveals the face/identity of the special forces soldiers - the IDF will want to edit that out.

There are all sorts of reasons, technical and moral for editing the vids. The IDF is after all under no obligation to satisfy the youtube generations lust for fresh content. Only the investigators and probably certain key people (diplomats from the US for example) should be able to see it all if they should so desire.

Memnoch

rugbyman wrote: »

Dont mean to sidetrack , but though i am fairly well read on world matters. I have only just become aware that Egypt has been operating a land blockade on aid reaching Gaza(untill a few days ago).

Why are there not protests outside embasies and such like against Egypt?


Regards,Rugbyman

Been discussed to death already in this thread. Egypt's cooperation is bought and paid for by the Israeli's. But they weren't the ones that killed at least nine people. With 25(is that right number?) more missing and unaccounted for.

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

Mind pointing out which captions on that vid were misleading?

The one about a "Fire Bomb" being thrown.


When it was a firework.

Fuhrer

bambooze wrote: »

For example..

Lets say you were on that boat and your cam/phone was confiscated and on that there are pics or video of your girlfriend in a bikini - is that relevant to this incident? Would you really want that all over youtube? I would say not.. legitimate reason to edit.

Seriously?


You're going with that?

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

Nonsense, utter, UTTER nonsense.

This is the kind of stuff that really enrages me.

There is no justification for Israel confiscating all the photographic evidence. There is no justification for Israel releasing only edited footage that shows it in a "good light."

(unless your only interest is to make sure Israel does not have to take any responsibility or face any sanction for its actions)

The only reason they do this is because they have committed a terribly atrocity and are doing their damnedest to cover it up.

But as much I hate what the Israelis are doing I'm absolutely SEETHING at people who go on forums or on the news or anywhere else and try to pretend that this is just "par from the course," and that there are "perfectly innocent and valid reasons" for those accused of a horrible crime to be in charge of controlling all of the objective evidence of the crime.

It's not just ludicrious, it's dishonest to the point of malevolence. And that's honestly the strongest language I think I can get away with without being infarcted or banned to express my outrage at the level of intellectual gymnastics involved here.

I await a red-herring off topic response featuring NATO or China or some other agency that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Tough, you just don't like anything or anyone that disagrees with your preconceptions of israel and this incident. Seeth away.

droidus

Memnoch wrote: »

Nonsense, utter, UTTER nonsense.

This is the kind of stuff that really enrages me.

There is no justification for Israel confiscating all the photographic evidence. There is no justification for Israel releasing only edited footage that shows it in a "good light."

(unless your only interest is to make sure Israel does not have to take any responsibility or face any sanction for its actions)

The only reason they do this is because they have committed a terribly atrocity and are doing their damnedest to cover it up.

But as much I hate what the Israelis are doing I'm absolutely SEETHING at people who go on forums or on the news or anywhere else and try to pretend that this is just "par from the course," and that there are "perfectly innocent and valid reasons" for those accused of a horrible crime to be in charge of controlling all of the objective evidence of the crime.

It's not just ludicrious, it's dishonest to the point of malevolence. And that's honestly the strongest language I think I can get away with without being infarcted or banned to express my outrage at the level of intellectual gymnastics involved here.

I await a red-herring off topic response featuring NATO or China or some other agency that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Well said, and if I could add, this is totally predictable and its happened almost everytime Israel engages in conflict. Sabra & Chitala, Khan Younis, Rafah, Jenin, Cast Lead, Qana, Khyiam (where they killed UN peacekeepers who were on the radio to the Israelis at the time pleading with them to stop shelling) and on countless other occasions.

Heres whats going to happen now. Witness accounts and (hopefully) video evidence is going to come out to contradict the IDF version with overwhelming testimony and Israel will slowly and quietly retract many of the claims they've made previously. Israeli representatives will make contradictory statements and continue to slur the activists, especially in the US. Eventually, once the headlines have dies down, a neutral report will condemn Israel's actions or an Israeli report will condemn the manner of the raid but not address the legal or moral issues. 'Useful idiots' all over the world will continue to post the initial IDF videos for years as evidence that the world hates Israel.

We've seen it all before, time and again, most recently with Cast Lead and the destruction of homes/use of WP/murder of civilians etc... and IMO anyone who believes anything the IDF says either needs to do a crash course in mid-east history or have their head examined.

bambooze

Fuhrer wrote: »

Seriously?

You're going with that?

Its not a legitimate reason? I'm not saying it happened, but it is an example of a reason within the realm of the possible.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Lets say you were on that boat and your cam/phone was confiscated and on that there are pics or video of your girlfriend in a bikini - is that relevant to this incident? Would you really want that all over youtube? I would say not.. legitimate reason to edit.

Oh come on you can do better than that surely!

Lets say some video (idf or other) shows someone mortally wounded, brains spilling onto the deck - would you want to see that? If that was your son/brother/father/whatever, would you want that to be youtube entertainment? Is there really any reason why the public needs to see it? I'd say edit the nasty stuff out - I do not want to see it.

No thats exactly what is needed to be seen. Also who said release it on youtube. Release all footage to a International UN Investigation.

Lets say the vid reveals the face/identity of the special forces soldiers - the IDF will want to edit that out.

Thats the only valid one you have posted and yes they could pixelise the faces on those.

There are all sorts of reasons, technical and moral for editing the vids. The IDF is after all under no obligation to satisfy the youtube generations lust for fresh content. Only the investigators and probably certain key people (diplomats from the US for example) should be able to see it all if they should so desire.

The only reason that most people see for the editing is to hide any evidence of IDF wrong doing.

Btw I love the comment "The IDF is after all under no obligation to satisfy the youtube generations lust for fresh content" when they were the ones who used youtube as a delivery mechanism for their propagandised video releases. Hypocritical position maybe

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

For example..

Nonsense. Deliberate, misleading nonsense.

Lets say you were on that boat and your cam/phone was confiscated and on that there are pics or video of your girlfriend in a bikini - is that relevant to this incident? Would you really want that all over youtube? I would say not.. legitimate reason to edit.

I doubt you will find a SINGLE protester on the boat that will agree with this. The fact that you are even willing to try and use this as an excuse.

You're really trying to tell us with a STRAIGHT face that the Israelis are editing the footage in order to protect the privacy of the people they brutally savaged and kidnapped and held them without charge for three days?

Sheer bold faced hypocritical dishonesty.

Lets say some video (idf or other) shows someone mortally wounded, brains spilling onto the deck - would you want to see that? If that was your son/brother/father/whatever, would you want that to be youtube entertainment? Is there really any reason why the public needs to see it? I'd say edit the nasty stuff out - I do not want to see it.

Very clever. Yes, now we are filled with concerns for the victims families. Yes those families would much rather NOT know the truth, and NOT know who killed their loved ones and how that happened. They'd much rather not have the people responsible held to account by the weight of the evidence. Just as long as people on youtube don't get to see the carnage. And who mentioned youtube? Forget youtube, let any competent INDEPENDENT authority handle the evidence and decide what to release to the public.

But hey, of course, video of Israeli commandos being attacked is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and much more in the public interest than video of innocent civilians being shot dead.

Lets say the vid reveals the face/identity of the special forces soldiers - the IDF will want to edit that out.

They were all masked. But you know, heaven forbid the world learns the identity of people killing civilians in cold blood.

There are all sorts of reasons, technical and moral for editing the vids. The IDF is after all under no obligation to satisfy the youtube generations lust for fresh content. Only the investigators and probably certain key people (diplomats from the US for example) should be able to see it all if they should so desire.

There are no reasons. The ONLY reason is to COVER up the crimes by the Israeli soldiers. The evidence should be handed over untouched to an INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL investigator. Anything short of that is a cover up.

The fact that you are calling for this cover up and attempting to justify it shows just how UTTERLY shameless your dishonesty and hypocrisy is.

prinz

Memnoch wrote: »

More brilliant diversion...

Someone claims the captions were misleading, too much to ask for them to point out which captions were misleading and why?

sceptre

bambooze wrote: »

But which video?

Personally I'd settle for the CCTV footage. It's the video being criticised for having gaps.

prinz wrote: »

Someone claims the captions were misleading, too much to ask for them to point out which captions were misleading and why?

Just irrelevant to the idea of releasing the unexpurgated footage to be honest. Regardless of where one's sympathies lie (if any), when the video released has "helpful" tooltips inserted frequently by one side (regardless of which side it is), it's a mere propaganda exercise whichever way you look at it. News organisations hence can't air a version of the video that doesn't itself explicitly editorialise.

The "entertainment" point is even more of a red herring. The issue is what happened. That's obviously the point. If there are brains, flying bullets, waved angle grinders or dancing gnomes stealing underpants all over the place for a few seconds, that's part of what happened.

Foxtrol

Fuhrer wrote: »

The one about a "Fire Bomb" being thrown.


When it was a firework.

Sorry thats just getting pedantic now. Its like saying an eye-witnesses report shouldnt be believed because they said their friend got shot with a rifle when video evidence appears to show them being shot with a pistol.

The bias here is ridiculous. Both sides are very likely to be distorting their story. If you're going to slur the Israelis you might as well slur those from the flotilla too.

dlofnep

Did anyone see that 19 year old kid was shot 5 times? 4 of which were in the head? That smacks of execution if you ask me. Any military experts on here want to hypothesize how someone could be shot 5 times, 4 of which in the head, without it being an execution?

wes

rugbyman wrote: »

Dont mean to sidetrack , but though i am fairly well read on world matters. I have only just become aware that Egypt has been operating a land blockade on aid reaching Gaza(untill a few days ago).

Why are there not protests outside embasies and such like against Egypt?

Well, they aren't controlling there Gaza's sea access and air space for one.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

Someone claims the captions were misleading, too much to ask for them to point out which captions were misleading and why?

I'll tell you what. Why don't you make a call for all of the evidence in this case to be handed over to a competent and independent authority without any apparent bias. Or accept that Israel's refusal to do so is an indication of their guilt.

And I will retract my assertion that you are attempting to be dishonest or disingenuous.

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

The one about a "Fire Bomb" being thrown.
When it was a firework.

Proof it was a firework? As opposed to say a bottle full of oil/fuel?