Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Fuhrer

bambooze wrote: »

Its not a legitimate reason? I'm not saying it happened, but it is an example of a reason within the realm of the possible.

Well for one thing, I doubt someones picture of their girlfriend would fall into anyone definition of "Footage of the incident"


But hey, you keep on trucking.

bambooze

gandalf wrote: »

Oh come on you can do better than that surely!

As I said, just an example of a legitimate reason for editing since everyone automatically assumed there are no possible reasons - clearly it is possible even if it didn't happen.

No thats exactly what is needed to be seen. Also who said release it on youtube. Release all footage to a International UN Investigation.

I get the impression that everyone here wants to see all the video, not just have it released to some UN committee.

Thats the only valid one you have posted and yes they could pixelise the faces on those.

Yes and maybe they will release such vids in future when/if they find any on all the confiscated equipment.

The only reason that most people see for the editing is to hide any evidence of IDF wrong doing.

Yes thats the conclusion they jump to but that doesn't mean they are correct.

Btw I love the comment "The IDF is after all under no obligation to satisfy the youtube generations lust for fresh content" when they were the ones who used youtube as a delivery mechanism for their propagandised video releases. Hypocritical position maybe

Well the people demand it.. :P

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Tough, you just don't like anything or anyone that disagrees with your preconceptions of israel and this incident. Seeth away.

Well, when the IDF stop lieing and constantly changing there story, you know after murdered several people, then I think you can complain about "preconceptions".

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Did anyone see that 19 year old kid was shot 5 times? 4 of which were in the head? That smacks of execution if you ask me. Any military experts on here want to hypothesize how someone could be shot 5 times, 4 of which in the head, without it being an execution?

Depends how many of those came from the same weapon. Could also be from an automatic.

Memnoch wrote: »

I'll tell you what. Why don't you make a call for all of the evidence in this case to be handed over to a competent and independent authority without any apparent bias. Or accept that Israel's refusal to do so is an indication of their guilt. And I will retract my assertion that you are attempting to be dishonest or disingenuous.

I have done.

You see what happens when you're busy grinding an axe?

wes

prinz wrote: »

Proof it was a firework? As opposed to say a bottle full of oil/fuel?

Did the IDF provide proof for there claims? Oh wait, no they didn't and they seem to keep changing there story. Are the IDF exempt from proving there claims somehow?!?

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

Proof it was a firework? As opposed to say a bottle full of oil/fuel?

For one thing, it popped brightly and then was gone


I dont know if you know how oil or fuel works... But it burns continously. It didnt in this video.


Add to this there were pictures of fireworks found and released by the IDF

I dont recall any bottles of oil/fuel

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

As I said, just an example of a legitimate reason for editing since everyone automatically assumed there are no possible reasons - clearly it is possible even if it didn't happen.

Nonsense. There is no legitimacy to the idea. You've made it up in order to support the cover up.

I get the impression that everyone here wants to see all the video, not just have it released to some UN committee.

Nonsense. I'm sure everyone here would be perfectly happy if the full unedited evidence was handed over to an independent UN investigator. But that's precisely what supports of this atrocity like yourself don't want.

Yes and maybe they will release such vids in future when/if they find any on all the confiscated equipment.

Nonsense, lies, deliberate obfuscation. Israel will do no such thing and you know it.

Yes thats the conclusion they jump to but that doesn't mean they are correct.

That is the only reasonable and logical conclusion. The only reason you deny it is because you want the atrocity to be covered up.

prinz

wes wrote: »

Did the IDF provide proof for there claims? Oh wait, no they didn't and they seem to keep changing there story. Are the IDF exempt from proving there claims somehow?!?

Well yes, IIRC amongst the photos the IDF have released are home made molotov cocktails.

P. Breathnach

prinz wrote: »

Proof it was a firework? As opposed to say a bottle full of oil/fuel?

Given that most of the weapons used by the protestors were the sort of things that might be found on board a ship, I'd imagine that the item thrown was a marine flare. That could cause some damage, more than dinner plates might.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

Depends how many of those came from the same weapon. Could also be from an automatic.



I have done.

You see what happens when you're busy grinding an axe?

So I want to be clear.

If the IDF refuse to release all the evidence unedited and untouched to an independent authority, you'll accept this as evidence of their guilt?

(of course there will probably be no way to tell that they haven't tampered with it before releasing it).

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

Nonsense. Deliberate, misleading nonsense.



I doubt you will find a SINGLE protester on the boat that will agree with this. The fact that you are even willing to try and use this as an excuse.

You're really trying to tell us with a STRAIGHT face that the Israelis are editing the footage in order to protect the privacy of the people they brutally savaged and kidnapped and held them without charge for three days?

Sheer bold faced hypocritical dishonesty.



Very clever. Yes, now we are filled with concerns for the victims families. Yes those families would much rather NOT know the truth, and NOT know who killed their loved ones and how that happened. They'd much rather not have the people responsible held to account by the weight of the evidence. Just as long as people on youtube don't get to see the carnage. And who mentioned youtube? Forget youtube, let any competent INDEPENDENT authority handle the evidence and decide what to release to the public.

But hey, of course, video of Israeli commandos being attacked is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and much more in the public interest than video of innocent civilians being shot dead.



They were all masked. But you know, heaven forbid the world learns the identity of people killing civilians in cold blood.



There are no reasons. The ONLY reason is to COVER up the crimes by the Israeli soldiers. The evidence should be handed over untouched to an INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL investigator. Anything short of that is a cover up.

The fact that you are calling for this cover up and attempting to justify it shows just how UTTERLY shameless your dishonesty and hypocrisy is.

Again I say - there are legitimate reasons for editing vids besides hiding evidence, no matter how much you would like to deny that possibility.

wes

prinz wrote: »

Well yes, IIRC amongst the photos the IDF have released are home made molotov cocktails.

Those weren't molotov cocktails....., so yeah still no proof from the IDF as per usual, just lies and obfuscation, which there well known for.

rugbyman

Memnoch wrote: »

Been discussed to death already in this thread. Egypt's cooperation is bought and paid for by the Israeli's. But they weren't the ones that killed at least nine people. With 25(is that right number?) more missing and unaccounted for.

thank youfor your reply, but I mean why were there no anti egyptian protests before the nine killings.

re the funding of the Egyptian blockade, is that relevant.? One can still protest against the blockade, rather than some roundabout way against the paymaster.

Regards ,Rugbyman

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

Again I say - there are legitimate reasons for editing vids besides hiding evidence, no matter how much you would like to deny that possibility.

There are not, your claims to the contrary are dishonest, disingenuous and the only reason you are saying this is because you want the atrocity to be covered up.

Fuhrer

bambooze wrote: »

Again I say - there are legitimate reasons for editing vids besides hiding evidence, no matter how much you would like to deny that possibility.

But you've failed to mention any realistic ones.

droidus

Previous Israeli lies about the use of White Phosphorous:

CHANGING TUNE

January 5 The Times reports that telltale smoke has appeared from areas of shelling. Israel denies using phosphorus

January 8 The Times reports photographic evidence showing stockpiles of white phosphorus (WP) shells. Israel Defence Forces spokesman says: “This is what we call a quiet shell – it has no explosives and no white phosphorus”

January 12 The Times reports that more than 50 phosphorus burns victims are taken into Nasser Hospital. An Israeli military spokesman “categorically” denies the use of white phosphorus

January 15 Remnants of white phosphorus shells are found in western Gaza. The IDF refuses to comment on specific weaponry but insists ammunition is “within the scope of international law”

January 16 The United Nations Relief and Works Agency headquarters are hit with phosphorus munitions. The Israeli military continues to deny its use

January 21 Avital Leibovich, Israel’s military spokeswoman, admits white phosphorus munitions were employed in a manner “according to international law”

January 23 Israel says it is launching an investigation into white phosphorus munitions, which hit a UN school on January 17. “Some practices could be illegal but we are going into that. The IDF is holding an investigation concerning one specific unit and one incident” Source: Times database

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece

And of course, the UN, Amnesty and HRW concluded in their reports that Israel did, in fact use WP in a reckless manner in contravention of International Law.

And we're expected to believe them now in relation to the events on the Flotilla?

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

There are not, your claims to the contrary are dishonest, disingenuous and the only reason you are saying this is because you want the atrocity to be covered up.

There are reasons and your denial of even the possibility shows your extreme bias.

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

I dont recall any bottles of oil/fuel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM

Between 51 and 53 seconds in. That is a crude firebomb, not a firework.

dlofnep

rugbyman wrote: »

thank youfor your reply, but I mean why were there no anti egyptian protests before the nine killings.

re the funding of the Egyptian blockade, is that relevant.? One can still protest against the blockade, rather than some roundabout way against the paymaster.

Regards ,Rugbyman

People have protested against Egypt. Israel responsible for the destruction of Gaza while it was under blockade, and the death's of 100's of innocent women and children. That is why they are condemned to a higher level.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

I get the impression that everyone here wants to see all the video, not just have it released to some UN committee.

No I think the majority of people would be happy with the unedited video being reviewed by a recognised international body (the UN) who are not implicated from either side of this situation.

Yes thats the conclusion they jump to but that doesn't mean they are correct.

But based on what we have seen you can understand why we are coming to these conclusions?

Well the people demand it.. :P

Sometimes I wonder about you. This is a very serious incident where people lost their lives dues to a laissez faire attitude towards International Law by the Israeli government. People want an Independent Inquiry of what exactly happened on those ships considering 8 Turkish nationals and 1 American were killed, a number of others were injured (Including at least one Irish citizen) and nearly 700 people were kidnapped from International Waters.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

There are reasons and your denial of even the possibility shows your extreme bias.

I could care less about the IDFs excuses, for there cover up. They have changed there story several times, and have not released all the footage unedited. As it stands they are liar's imho, and they have 0 credibility.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

People have protested against Egypt. Israel responsible for the destruction of Gaza while it was under blockade, and the death's of 100's of innocent women and children. That is why they are condemned to a higher level.

Any pictures of any of the Irish people on board this convoy protesting against Egypt?

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM

Between 51 and 53 seconds in. That is a crude firebomb, not a firework.

Its a 2 second clip of a plastic bottle...


Its a wild stretch to say its a firebomb.


And given that you've derailed this issue to the point of breaking, it doesnt mean what was shown in the video was a firebomb as it didnt burn like a firebomb would have.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

There are reasons and your denial of even the possibility shows your extreme bias.

Nope. You haven't managed to convince one person on here that there are valid, legitimate reasons.

Even prinz, who has been pretty solidly pro-israeli throughout this thread has accepted that the evidence should be handed over to an independent, investigating authority.

That's right, we are all biased. All except the one person who defends every single action and response of the Israeli government and military on this issue. I'm SO biased that I actually called for an unconditional and unilateral ceasefire by Hamas. Clearly, I want Israel to disappear of the map.

wes

prinz wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM

Between 51 and 53 seconds in. That is a crude firebomb, not a firework.

Thats not a firebomb of any kind, just more misrepresentation and lies from the IDF.

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

And given that you've derailed this issue to the point of breaking, it doesnt mean what was shown in the video was a firebomb as it didnt burn like a firebomb would have.

I have derailed it, sorry I forgot actually questioning anything was against the official party line here. From your own extensive knowledge of firebombs is it?

prinz

wes wrote: »

Thats not a firebomb of any kind, just more misrepresentation and lies from the IDF.

Ah here lads. This is just getting ridiculous now. Next you'll be saying the knives aren't really knives of any kind at all.

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

Even prinz, who has been pretty solidly pro-israeli throughout this thread has accepted that the evidence should be handed over to an independent, investigating authority.

I haven't said it shouldn't be. I have said they are under no obligation to release it to the public and have it all over youtube and there are legitimate reasons for editing anything they do release to youtube.

wes

prinz wrote: »

I have derailed it, sorry I forgot actually questioning anything was against the official party line here. From your own extensive knowledge of firebombs is it?

And you expertise of firebombs is what exactly, btw?

The IDF have made lots of claims, and then retracted them several times already, and have made multiple attempts at smeaing the floatilla people with lies, such as them being linked to Al Qaeda etc, and so there claims regarding a plastic bottle being a firebomb, in and of themselves is beyond laughable, and considering there constant lies and smears, I have no reason to trust a word they say.

Wibbs

droidus wrote: »

Previous Israeli lies about the use of White Phosphorous:



And of course, the UN, Amnesty and HRW concluded in their reports that Israel did, in fact use WP in a reckless manner in contravention of International Law.

And we're expected to believe them now in relation to the events on the Flotilla?

That's the single biggest problem the Israelis face in this. They have an abominable record when it comes to this stuff. The Anti American brigade witter on about them being bad, but they're not nearly so bad. Forget not nearly, they're actually objectively quite good. Yes they're not to keen about independent observers but have proven they will go after dodgy military stuff if found out.

Israel doesnt. Never mind about the legion of UN resolutions they ignore time and time and time again, they come across as simply not caring a jot about anyone elses take but their own. Including Americas take too.

The Palestinians? Oh I have no doubt at all they're no angels, but theyve better PR. If positions were reversed, I'm quite sure they would be the same as a few other states in the ME. Well dodgy. Even so, Israel has ignored international pressure more than any other ME state put together in the last 50 years going by UN resolutions alone. Given the competition that can be well dodgy that's no boast.