Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Foxtrol

gandalf wrote: »

Agreed except they had precedence that all the other ships that they sent before this flotilla were either turned away and let through without the fate that met this convoy.

Maybe they assumed the same would happen this time. Which I would consider to be logical but naive.

At least you agree with me that International Law was breached. That alone should be enough to justify an International Inquiry at the UN.

I dont believe any other flotilla had ever been this direct with their statements that they weren't stopping. If I you believe what a tv discussion the phrase "to Gaza or death" was used (this was not disputed by the pro-flotilla panel members so im accepting it as fact). Due to this I dont think this flotilla can be compared fairly to those previously

Foxtrol

Fuhrer wrote: »

Unless they think the only way to get through the blockade is tell the whole world that you are brining much needed supplies to a desperate people and only a heartless people would stop you.

Well then the argument that previous flotilla's were accepted or turned away peacefully is moot. I think this is a case of searching for answers when the most likely one is staring you in the face. Even those on board didnt actually expect to make it to Gaza so the whole trip was for PR

bambooze

"Hamas is not a terrorist organisation: Recep Tayyip Erdogan"

Ankara. Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan said today that the radical Palestinian movement Hamas was not a terrorist organisation, AFP
“Hamas are fighting to protect their land. They won the elections. I spoke with U.S. officials… And I do not consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation… They are just protecting their land,” Erdogan explained. reported.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n221786


So now what should we think when he claims IHH are not a terror related group?

In his speech, Erdogan also slammed Turkish media reports which were critical of his party's support of Hamas, saying the "columnists" had a slanted view of the events.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=pm-describes-hamas-as-resister-for-own-lands-2010-06-04

Dar

I highly doubt Rosa Parks thought they'd actually let her stay in her seat at the front of the bus, obviously the whole charade was about PR.

Johnboy1951

bambooze wrote: »

The organisers trying to run a military blockade endangered lives - what did they expect the military to do about it? What part of "military" didnt they get? It wasn't a teletubbies blockade.

Just maybe they expected the "military" to do exactly what they had previously done.

Was there reason to believe otherwise?

*******

The one major fact that is getting lost in all the bickering is that the boat was violently attacked in international waters ...... not 'just' outside any supposed 'line thou shalt not cross' ....... but many many miles away from that area.

That the invaders carried guns in their violent attack on those boats, regardless the reasons being suggested for their presence, and the fact that the invasion occurred so far into international waters, places all the 'blame' and responsibility on the invaders for what happened as a result.

********

I have seen many references to "paint-guns" in this thread.
It sounds so innocent! Maybe something like my kids would play with.
The only eyewitness report I have heard states that the rounds fired from those "paint-guns" were rubber-coated steel bullets.

I would ask that those who refer to what was fired please let us know what you think the projectiles were that were fired ......... paint-balls, rubber-coated steel bullets, or other projectiles.

From a very personal viewpoint, I would consider someone firing rubber-coated steel bullets at me to be attempting to kill or seriously maim me.

*******

I wish the Corrie well in her endeavours in the coming hours.

regards.

*****

It appears that the Israelis had declared a distance of some 68 miles to be the exclusion zone for this flotilla ....... while at the same time other normal commercial traffic was passing through inside that area unmolested.
Those on board had determined to defend themselves - if attacked - even though they had no weapons. I believe it was foolish in the extreme to have this decided beforehand. It certainly paints a somewhat different picture of the events ........ while, IMO, not one bit lessening the responsibility on Israel for the results of their vicious armed attack on the vessels.

It would be funny in other circumstances to hear of any country unilaterally deciding to take over international waters ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqjNim1Ak4E&feature=related

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

Why not just admit that it wasnt a firebomb and that you cant find anything to back up your claim that it was a firebomb?

Will you admit that what apears in that video may not be a firework?

IrishTonyO wrote: »

no it is not, the truth is what is required

Exactly. That was what I was questioning. We don't have all the facts so making definitive claims is pointless. The issue is if I make an unsustantiated claim I have up to 5 posters demanding proof, although a previous poster made an identical unsubstantiated claim which needs none.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

then why did you say anything about firebombs?

In response to a previous claim an item on the IDF video was a firework. It may have been, it may not have been.

IrishTonyO

prinz wrote: »

Tell you what, I'll do that, just as soon as you give that offer to other people who made idenical claims. To refresh your memory..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66232602&postcount=3018

again please read the forum charter regarding this

wes

bambooze wrote: »

So now what should we think when he claims IHH are not a terror related group?

Neither the EU or US, consider them terrorists either.

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

So now what should we think when he claims IHH are not a terror related group?

Why should believe the claims that they ARE? Any chance of some evidence this time and not links to second-hand rumor and speculation?

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

In response to a previous claim an item on the IDF video was a firework. It may have been, it may not have been.

What is this rubbish now?


You claimed it was a firebomb, then you claimed a saline drip was a firebomb.

IrishTonyO

prinz wrote: »

And the fact that someone threw something that doesn't appear on the video to flare up for a long time such as a petrol fire doesn't mean what was thrown was simply a firework.

you have been asked by multiple users to back up your claims of statements multiple times , now please back them up or retract them or change the wording to "it's possible"

prinz

IrishTonyO wrote: »

you have been asked by multiple users to back up your claims of statements multiple times , now please back them up or retract them or change the wording to "it's possible"

...and I said I'd happily retract them just as soon as a similar caveat is put on this... opinion as fact?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66232602&postcount=3018

Byron85

First they [the Israelis] tried to come by helicopter and tried to come down on the main deck. But the Turkish people were gathering on the rooftop and they managed to grab three of the soldiers, which led to a second helicopter to come and start shooting live bullets on the people.

People [on board] did not have any guns. All what they had were some wooden sticks which is normal.
I was on the Mavi Marmara [the lead ship of the flotilla].
I wasn't on the rooftop deck. I was on the first deck floor where the Israelis tried to climb by the ropes on the deck.
There were 20 Turkish resistance guys throwing tomatoes, anything that they managed to throw, on the Israelis.
Then one of these Turkish guys got a bullet just in the head. When the Turkish people saw that, they pulled him inside when the Israelis started firing on the deck.
[After the Israelis took over the ship] they kept us tied up, hands behind the back, for nine hours until we reached the Ashdod port and from there they took us for individual interrogation and then shipped us all to Be'er Sheva jail.
The organisers [of the flotilla] swapped the four Israelis kidnapped, or caught, by the people on the ship, and because they were beaten up, because it's kind of resistance from our side, we swapped the Israeli soldiers to [get] to treat our injured.

A Turkish man got a bullet in the head. The 19 year old Turk with U.S citizenship got 4 bullets in the head and 1 in the chest. The only reason the wounded were treated was because the activists had leverage and even then the Israelis waited for over an hour before treating people. This is not how a legitimate force acts. They do not militarily execute people and they do not linger before deciding to treat wounded people who in the meantime have bled to death. Dress it up anyway you want but as soon as you start shooting people in the head at close range, it is an execution.

IrishTonyO

prinz wrote: »

...and I said I'd happily retract them just as soon as a similar caveat is put on this... opinion as fact?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66232602&postcount=3018

Have you read the forum charter here, i.e. the rules of politics forum? Please read them now and respond to multiple requests for references etc to your claims

bambooze

Dar wrote: »

Why should believe the claims that they ARE? Any chance of some evidence this time and not links to second-hand rumor and speculation?

I previously posted the danish/american doc which referenced french intelligence amongst others. I also posted a link to a post by a journo in turkey. Also this came out the other day..

The IHH had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere, 67, told The Associated Press.

dlofnep

They are not planning to award one of the terrorists with a medal of honour for killing 6 people? Israel has no shame.

Fuhrer

bambooze wrote: »

I previously posted the danish/american doc which referenced french intelligence amongst others. I also posted a link to a post by a journo in turkey. Also this came out the other day..

The IHH had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere, 67, told The Associated Press.

Havent the White house said the other day that they have no connections with Hamas or Al Queida?

Foxtrol

Dar wrote: »

I highly doubt Rosa Parks thought they'd actually let her stay in her seat at the front of the bus, obviously the whole charade was about PR.

Ah yeah thats a great comparison, Rosa did set up that enormous media campaign about how she planned to sit down at the front of the bus that day. :rolleyes:

prinz

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Have you read the forum charter here, i.e. the rules of politics forum? Please read them now and respond to multiple requests for references etc to your claims

As above. I will happily retract any opinion stated as fact as long as that is applied equally.

bambooze

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The only reason the wounded were treated was because the activists had leverage

Speculation.

This is not how a legitimate force acts. They do not militarily execute people and they do not linger before deciding to treat wounded people who in the meantime have bled to death.

I wasn't aware it was common practice for soldiers to drop everything mid-battle and treat the people they just shot.

Foxtrol

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

A Turkish man got a bullet in the head. The 19 year old Turk with U.S citizenship got 4 bullets in the head and 1 in the chest. The only reason the wounded were treated was because the activists had leverage and even then the Israelis waited for over an hour before treating people. This is not how a legitimate force acts. They do not militarily execute people and they do not linger before deciding to treat wounded people who in the meantime have bled to death. Dress it up anyway you want but as soon as you start shooting people in the head at close range, it is an execution.

Boats are quite confined especially if the eye witness from the boat can be believed that Israeli hostages were dragged below deck. Its not nice but doesnt prove execution.

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

As above. I will happily retract any opinion stated as fact as long as that is applied equally.

You being asked to back up your claims should only be honoured if your requests are met?


Im pretty sure if you make a claim, you have to back it up regardless.



Unlike you, I have tried to explain mine.

Ive explained how the video shows a flash and smoke, yet no fire making the firework more likely.

Ive shown pictures of the fireworks that were found on board.

you on the other hand have show a picture of Saline and said it had to be treated as proof as we had no way of knowing what was in it.

Fuhrer

bambooze wrote: »

Speculation.

Well no, that was supposedly one of the conditions the activists demanded.

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

I previously posted the danish/american doc which referenced french intelligence amongst others. I also posted a link to a post by a journo in turkey. Also this came out the other day..

The IHH had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere, 67, told The Associated Press.

And the last sentence from the same AP report:

But, he said the U.S. could not "validate" that IHH has connections to al Qaida.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

I previously posted the danish/american doc which referenced french intelligence amongst others. I also posted a link to a post by a journo in turkey. Also this came out the other day..

Still not on either the US or EU list of terrorist groups. So, again you posted speculation.

sceptre

Prinz and whoever else is doing the round and round until our eyes bleed, knock it off now. You don't have a monopoly on silliness in this thread but you're doing your best to carve out a niche territory. It's done, move on.

The charter requires claims of fact made to be backed up on request. A quick glance at the charter would show that. From my position on the hill with a largely non-involved birdseye view of the thread, this subdiscussion has turned into a question of ego (aka dick measuring) and we don't do that here. What the item was/is has been successfully illustrated by people with better checking vision than some and this continued whole "well I think" magic roundabout in reference to it is little better than the fishmonger's wife in Asterix for usefulness here at this point. Until someone demonstrates differently, it's an IV bottle and nothing more. Your imaginations can put magic pixies in it for all I care. We're done there.

Take it to PM if you must, it's just plain annoying to everyone else here at this point. Politics isn't a playground at all, we're not introducing a playpen either.

/mod

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

I wasn't aware it was common practice for soldiers to drop everything mid-battle and treat the people they just shot.

They had full control of the ship and let people bleed to death.

Mid-battle?? I didn't realise that a turkey-shoot, pun not intended, could be construed as a "battle".

It reminds me of a quote from Bill Hicks. "Wasn't really a war, you know, a war is when two armies are fighting, So, I don't know if you could call it a war, exactly, you know. The Persian Gulf Distraction is more like it I think."

wes

dlofnep wrote: »

They are not planning to award one of the terrorists with a medal of honour for killing 6 people? Israel has no shame.

Yes, in full agreement. Absoulutely disgusting.

Byron85

Foxtrol wrote: »

Boats are quite confined especially if the eye witness from the boat can be believed that Israeli hostages were dragged below deck. Its not nice but doesnt prove execution.

Read what I originally said again. The head shot was from the chopper or Israeli boat(s). That's far from a confined space.

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

I wasn't aware it was common practice for soldiers to drop everything mid-battle and treat the people they just shot.

How soon should they have started treating them?

The freed Al'jazeera reporter is claiming that three of the gunshot victims were denied treatment for three hours until they bled to death, despite a Palestinian member of the Knesset begging them to evacuate the wounded. Did the "battle" rage for a full three hours?