Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

bambooze

Dar wrote: »

And the last sentence from the same AP report:

Is the US the arbiter of who is and is not a terrorist these days?

bambooze

Dar wrote: »

How soon should they have started treating them?

When the battle was over and the area secure enough for their doctors to work safely.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

Is the US the arbiter of who is and is not a terrorist these days?

So who is then?

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

Is the US the arbiter of who is and is not a terrorist these days?

No, but when you mention Al'Qaeda they tend to start investigating fairly thoroughly.

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

When the battle was over and the area secure enough for their doctors to work safely.

Are you suggesting it took three hours for the area to be secured?

bambooze

wes wrote: »

So who is then?

boards.ie ?

Scofflaw

Have you read the forum charter here, i.e. the rules of politics forum? Please read them now and respond to multiple requests for references etc to your claims

As above. I will happily retract any opinion stated as fact as long as that is applied equally.

OK, this appears to be going round in the kind of circles that end up with otherwise sensible posters being banned.

I suggest you all leave the topic for the moment. I don't want to see it again before page 230.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Foxtrol

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Read what I originally said again. The head shot was from the chopper or Israeli boat(s). That's far from a confined space.

Apologies. How can he tell where it came from though? Again as it was pointed out to me earlier what is the context? Can the eye witness see were all the Israeli forces are and what his compatriots are doing? If an edited video cant be taken at face value how are we going to take at face value edited potentially biased eye witness reports? (I dont want to get into that cicular argument again, I'm just pointing out that we dont know what context this is in)

Obviously if in cold blood the IDF shot them for throwing "tomatoes" I'd be appalled.

bambooze

Dar wrote: »

Are you suggesting it took three hours for the area to be secured?

I have no idea how long it took or even how long it should take to secure a ship with 600+ people.

Memnoch

More reports of Israeli crimes in the attack on the aid flotilla...

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848

Obviously NOT executions...

The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.

A Canadian on board, Farooq Burney, described watching an elderly man bleed to death. The head of a Turkish charity that organized the aid flotilla said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach and a photographer was shot in the forehead.

Guns... guns and MORE guns?

Burney told Reuters. "So they basically took the guns away from them and took the cartridges out and threw them away."

Asked if anyone had used the guns against the Israeli commandos, Burney said, "No, not at all."

"Yes, we took their guns. It would be self defence even if we fired their guns," Bulent Yildirim, chairman of the IHH, said.

"We told our friends on board we will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," he said, adding that people shouted that the weapons should not be used.

"By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea," Yildirim said.

Is it ANY surprise that the Israeli's won't release the evidence?

Someone asked me about the use of the word "murder" before. I said I didn't think that was the case. Well, I'm prepared to say it now...

Murderers

wes

bambooze wrote: »

boards.ie ?

Well, personally the EU list is good enough for me. So until the IHH appear on it, I think it safe to say they are not terrorists, and such suggestions are an attempt at smearing them.

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

I have no idea how long it took or even how long it should take to secure a ship with 600+ people.

Do you think it would take three hours to secure the deck to the extent that a helicopter evacuation would be possible?

gandalf

Dar wrote: »

Do you think it would take three hours to secure the deck to the extent that a helicopter evacuation would be possible?

The IDF were probably trying to defuse that IV Bottle under the impression it was an IED

Exile 1798

So the Israeli govt has released a short segment of video of the incident, the part that shows activists resisting their troops boarding effort. When can we expect the full tape to be released showing the Israeli commandos killing those on board?

If they think these killings are justified then they should have no problem doing so. The postmortems of a number of the victims raise some very troubling questions.

Foxtrol

Memnoch wrote: »

More reports of Israeli crimes in the attack on the aid flotilla...

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848

Obviously NOT executions...

Context??? Is there any proof he was shot in an area that wasn't confined area? You're so quick to dismiss an edited video but not potentially biased eye witness reports about exactly what was going on around them. Hypocritical much?

I do agree that not giving someone medical assistance is terrible no matter what they've done to you.

Guns... guns and MORE guns?



Is it ANY surprise that the Israeli's won't release the evidence?

Someone asked me about the use of the word "murder" before. I said I didn't think that was the case. Well, I'm prepared to say it now...

Murderers

Where's the premeditated intent for it to be murder?

Pity more of people didnt follow that lead and not use weapons and there might have been less bloodshed. Also, taking a gun whether you intend to use it is an incredibly hostile/stupid action. I wouldn't be surprised to get shot if I grabbed a gun off anyone. That isnt meant doesn't condone the Israeli actions only to show my point that those on the boat escalated the situation.

Kivaro

A single commando who killed 6 of those onboard the ship is due to get a medal of valour for his actions. Not surprising as this 'commando' described the activists as a “mob of mercenaries”. Goes to show his mindset.

Anyway more here.

Byron85

Kivaro wrote: »

A single commando who killed 6 of those onboard the ship is due to get a medal of valour for his actions. Not surprising as this 'commando' described the activists as a “mob of mercenaries”. Goes to show his mindset.

Anyway more here.

This is getting ridiculous.

“These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us.” His accusation that his assailants were mercenaries was based on the large amounts of cash found on a number of the detained and killed passengers, although other officials have suggested the money was destined to be given to Hamas in Gaza if the convoy succeeded in breaking the Israeli naval blockade.

I have over 2 grand in my bank account and a lot on my person. I guess i'm a mercenary.

Foxtrol

Exile 1798 wrote: »

So the Israeli govt has released a short segment of video of the incident, the part that shows activists resisting their troops boarding effort. When can we expect the full tape to be released showing the Israeli commandos killing those on board?

If they think these killings are justified then they should have no problem doing so. The postmortems of a number of the victims raise some very troubling questions.

When are we going to hear the full stories of the eye witnesses like the ones who stabbed or saw the stabbings of the commandos? Why have we only heard one report from someone on board about israeli hostages being taken?

The misinformation is not all one sided.

Scofflaw

Kivaro wrote: »

A single commando who killed 6 of those onboard the ship is due to get a medal of valour for his actions. Not surprising as this 'commando' described the activists as a “mob of mercenaries”. Goes to show his mindset.

Anyway more here.

The cock-up gets cockier.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Memnoch

Foxtrol wrote: »

Context??? Is there any proof he was shot in an area that wasn't confined area? You're so quick to dismiss an edited video but not potentially biased eye witness reports about exactly what was going on around them. Hypocritical much?

I do agree that not giving someone medical assistance is terrible no matter what they've done to you.

I've outlined clearly my reasons why I place more faith in the eye-witness reports than on what the IDF says.

Here's the kicker though. The IDF can very easily disprove these witnesses. They just have to release the evidence. I don't even need to see it for myself. I'll be happy if the American government releases a statement saying they've reviewed the evidence and are satisfied there is no wrong doing or criminal behaviour. (though ideally it should be an independent investigator).

Where's the premeditated intent for it to be murder?

I'm sure that 19 year old got shot four times in the head and once in the stomach at close range by accident.

Also, taking a gun whether you intend to use it is an incredibly hostile/stupid action. I wouldn't be surprised to get shot if I grabbed a gun off anyone. That isnt meant doesn't condone the Israeli actions only to show my point that those on the boat escalated the situation.

What a nonsensical conclusion. Someone is attacking you, they have a gun. You disarm them and throw away the gun. Disarming the person with the gun is now more likely to get you shot than not disarming them?

Legen... wait for it... dary... foxtrol logic.

Scofflaw

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous.



I have over 2 grand in my bank account and a lot on my person. I guess i'm a mercenary.

I've got cash here in my pocket. Hold on, there's some more on the desk. Also, I have a pretty sharp pair of scissors. When should I expect my Al-Qaeda membership card?

amused,
Scofflaw

IrishTonyO

South Africa has recalled it's ambassador from Israel

"The recall of ambassador Ishmael Coovadia is to show our strongest condemnation of the attack. This recent Israel aggression of attacking the aid flotilla severely impacts on finding a lasting solution to the problems of the region," Ebrahim told journalists in Pretoria. The South African government has already condemned the attack on the flotilla as "a gross violation of international law."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0604/1224271819189.html

Scofflaw

Pity more of people didnt follow that lead and not use weapons and there might have been less bloodshed. Also, taking a gun whether you intend to use it is an incredibly hostile/stupid action. I wouldn't be surprised to get shot if I grabbed a gun off anyone. That isnt meant doesn't condone the Israeli actions only to show my point that those on the boat escalated the situation.

By lawfully trying to repel an illegal assault. Blame the victim time again.

regards,
Scofflaw

Foxtrol

Kivaro wrote: »

A single commando who killed 6 of those onboard the ship is due to get a medal of valour for his actions. Not surprising as this 'commando' described the activists as a “mob of mercenaries”. Goes to show his mindset.

Anyway more here.

Maybe some balance to that story:

And a British passenger who witnessed the deadly pre-dawn encounter in international waters said that some of the more peaceful activists on board had tried to protect captured Israeli soldiers being set upon by a hardcore of passengers, most of them believed to be Turks linked to an Islamic charity accused by Israel of having links to extremists.

As he landed on the ship’s top deck, he said he saw three of his superior officers who had landed ahead of him lying wounded, one with a bullet wound to the stomach, another shot in the knee and the third beaten unconscious.

Taking charge, he formed his men in a perimeter around the wounded, pulled his 9mm Glock pistol and opened fire on passengers he accused of shooting at the boarding party with guns taken off the first soldiers, who had been overwhelmed as they landed one by one.

His accusation that his assailants were mercenaries was based on the large amounts of cash found on a number of the detained and killed passengers, although other officials have suggested the money was destined to be given to Hamas in Gaza if the convoy succeeded in breaking the Israeli naval blockade.

“I went down the stairwell and there was a massive crowd of people and lots of shouting,” she said, after being deported to Istanbul.

“They had got a soldier who had boarded the ship from the roof. There was a sense of ‘My god, we’ve got an Israeli soldier’. I don’t think we really knew what we were going to do.”

“I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don’t know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn’t.” She said around 25 people were gathered around the soldier, who was held by his legs and stripped to his underwear as he was restrained.

Foxtrol

Memnoch wrote: »

I've outlined clearly my reasons why I place more faith in the eye-witness reports than on what the IDF says.

Here's the kicker though. The IDF can very easily disprove these witnesses. They just have to release the evidence. I don't even need to see it for myself. I'll be happy if the American government releases a statement saying they've reviewed the evidence and are satisfied there is no wrong doing or criminal behaviour. (though ideally it should be an independent investigator).

So would I.

I'm sure that 19 year old got shot four times in the head and once in the stomach at close range by accident.

Its great how you ignore my rational that being in a confined space (like inside a boat) would explain the close range.

What a nonsensical conclusion. Someone is attacking you, they have a gun. You disarm them and throw away the gun. Disarming the person with the gun is now more likely to get you shot than not disarming them?

Legen... wait for it... dary... foxtrol logic.

Ugh (though I do enjoy the reference). Whether I think a police or military force has jurisdiction I would yes believe that attempting to disarm them would be more dangerous than doing what they said.

Memnoch

Foxtrol wrote: »

Maybe some balance to that story:

Except for the first report of the British passenger... which doesn't tell us anything new since we already saw the commandos that absailed down get mobbed and attacked. (looks like the terrorist passengers didn't kill them though, even though they could have).

All the other quotes are from the guy who murdered 6 unarmed civilians. The activists have all the reason in the world to lie, but not this guy right, because why would you lie if you'd murdered six innocent people in cold blood because you were a raging maniac filled with hate.

Foxtrol

Scofflaw wrote: »

By lawfully trying to repel an illegal assault. Blame the victim time again.

regards,
Scofflaw

Both sides disagree on the legality. To repeat my comment to memnoch: Whether I think a police or military force has jurisdiction I would yes believe that attempting to disarm them would cause more bloodshed than doing what they said.

Memnoch

Foxtrol wrote: »

Its great how you ignore my rational that being in a confined space (like inside a boat) would explain the close range.

And the four bullets to the head and one to the chest? For a 19 year old? Come on. Shooting someone in the head isn't easy. You'd have to pretty much put your gun to their forehead and pull the trigger repeatedly.

Ugh (though I do enjoy the reference). Whether I think a police or military force has jurisdiction I would yes believe that attempting to disarm them would be more dangerous than doing what they said.

Nothing to do with jurisdiction. Someone has a gun and are attacking you and people have already been shot dead. You're going to try to get that gun of them. If it was me. I'd definitely shoot back.

Funny how the raging terrorists showed more restraint than the Israelis. I mean they subdued at least 3 commandos (as we saw from the video and your quote) and they had guns. And yet not a single Israeli commando was killed.

Foxtrol

Memnoch wrote: »

Except for the first report of the British passenger... which doesn't tell us anything new since we already saw the commandos that absailed down get mobbed and attacked. (looks like the terrorist passengers didn't kill them though, even though they could have).

All the other quotes are from the guy who murdered 6 unarmed civilians. The activists have all the reason in the world to lie, but not this guy right, because why would you lie if you'd murdered six innocent people in cold blood because you were a raging maniac filled with hate.

So we're back to flotilla people should be believed but the IDF. Change the record. Also, "unarmed" is massively jumping to conclusions.

Do I have to say it again? I dont take anyones word. I'm taking bits from every source. I'm not claiming all the eye witnesses are liers but thats the general feeling im getting from you about the IDF.

Oh and if you read it again you can see that it was fellow passangers who stopped them from being killed. If that isn't proof that there was a minority of people looking for a fight on the boat I dont know what will

Scofflaw

Foxtrol wrote: »

Both sides disagree on the legality. To repeat my comment to memnoch: Whether I think a police or military force has jurisdiction I would yes believe that attempting to disarm them would cause more bloodshed than doing what they said.

Not really - the question is predicated on whether this was an armed conflict, and therefore legally a military blockade.

The difference is that the passengers probably genuinely believed that what they were doing was legally repelling an illegal assault, whereas Israel, because it has never accepted that the conflict has the legal status of a war, was doing something illegal according to its own legal view of the situation.

In other words, whatever the legal position is eventually found to be, the legal position Israel claimed to be in made what they were doing illegal, and what the passengers did legal.

regards,
Scofflaw