Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Irlandese

gandalf wrote: »

Interesting development cited in that Irish Times article linked to earlier.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0605/1224271913186.html

My god they are trying every trick in the book.

Yes, anything to avoid direct risk to lives, where possible.
It was a good one eh?
Slicca !

gandalf

Irlandese wrote: »

Yes, anything to avoid direct risk to lives, where possible.
It was a good one eh?
Slicca !

Yep it was a good attempt all right

dlofnep

Irlandese wrote: »

Such films need to be edited to remove shots of faces of personnel involved in future operations where their identity being discovered would put operations or their own safety at risk.

They wore masks.

Besides - it could be up to an impartial international body to edit such things if they took their masks off, and not Israel. If there is footage of the event - then we must be able to see it. There is no justification for confiscating tapes. And if Israel has done so and edited all tapes - then their side of the story will carry no weight, and cannot be taken literally at any point.

Irlandese

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Theres some absolutely ludicrous stuff in those links you posted



Theres a lot of hyperbole coming from the returning activists whether turkish or irish. I severely doubt that anyone was shot while handcuffed, thats just being said to make the Israelis look more "evil"

And I'd like to know exactly what kind of helicopter can spray cold seawater onto anything. I've never heard of a helicopter being equiped with pumps that could do that. I know the Israelis have some CH-53s for fighting fires but they just dump water down in one go, not pump it for 3 hours or whatever these people are trying to say.

Forget it friend. This thread is quickly metamorphising into a zany conspiracy thread.
Next we will discover that the IDF were using friendly aliens ,
from one of the space-ships they have hidden in the Golan,
to vaporise activists kneeling in prayer and waving flowers and incence at the
nasty men with the toy guns !
Its true, a jihadist activist told someone who heard it in a PUB !

Irlandese

dlofnep wrote: »

They wore masks.

Besides - it could be up to an impartial international body to edit such things if they took their masks off, and not Israel. If there is footage of the event - then we must be able to see it. There is no justification for confiscating tapes. And if Israel has done so and edited all tapes - then their side of the story will carry no weight, and cannot be taken literally at any point.

They didn't take their own masks off.
They let others do it, because they were sent in under a "no-fire" rule.
The operation was an ill-conceived mess, of course.
Blame politicians, not honest soldiers trying todoan impossible job.
No one here justifies the Gaza blockade either, or the reason for it, which is
over 2000 Hamas rocket and multiple suicide bomber attacks on Israeli civilians.
Maybe take off those famous blinkers, folks...........

Wibbs

Oh I get the security aspects of image capture and controlling same in an engagement situation, but they were quick enough to release video that suited their point of view. I can pretty much guarantee they wont release any video showing the killings. Hopefully someone got some video out. I doubt it'll show the killings either as I suspect at least some werent heat of the moment stuff and "privacy" was required.

Plus you can quote EU law all you like, but public filming and permissions involved are more complex than your take. If they weren't how come you can switch on the news and see video of newsworthy events?

I also see the usual victimhood stuff starting to creep in. The Israelis and the Palestinians are past masters of it.

gandalf wrote:

As for the offer to compromise and route the aid via an alternative port. Have you not read the ridiculous list of prescribed items that the Israelis will not allow through. Can you put your hand on your heart and swear that you believe Israel will let the full manifest of cargo through to Gaza. I for one can't and wouldn't.

Ditto I have to say. OK forget concrete and all that stuff, fresh fruit, veg, meat and fish and medical supplies?

dlofnep wrote:

It's the least that they could do after completely destroying the infrastructure of Gaza. But even at that, Israel does not let in sufficient aid. That is why they are attempting to break the blockade.

People have been left homeless, and have been forced to live in makeshift housing (tents basically) after Israel's bombing campaign. Israel has blocked concrete from entering Gaza, which would allow the Palestinian people rebuild their homes.

Now, as for the legality of the blockade - not only is it illegal, but it's also a crime against humanity according to the Goldstone report. But to be honest - The legality of it isn't the most important thing for me. Right now - the most important thing is that Israel has blocked sufficient aid supplies from reaching an impoverished people, who live in an open-air prison. This is why activists wish to break the blockade.

Like I said earlier they're building a ghetto 21st century style. Emotive? Certainly? Deeply saddening and ironic? Defo

Irlandese

gandalf wrote: »

Yep it was a good attempt all right

Lets hope we can stop them or arrange suitable inspection of cargo and ship,
without further loss of life.
It is a pity to see all this interest wasted on an exercise with non-humanitarian aims.
We need this and much more interest aimed at getting a comprehensive peace in the entire zone,
leading to a peaceful two-state solution, with security and peace for EVERYONE in zone.
Lehitraot ! ( Goodbye)
sheyihiye lecha yom na'im> Have a nice day
na'im me'od pleased to meet you )

dlofnep

Irlandese wrote: »

Blame politicians, not honest soldiers trying todoan impossible job.

I blame politicians for upholding an immoral and illegal blockade. I blame the soldiers for shooting a 60 year old man in the head, chest, back and hip. I blame the soldiers for shooting a 19 year old boy 4 times in the head at point blank range.

Irlandese wrote: »

No one here justifies the Gaza blockade either, or the reason for it, which is
over 2000 Hamas rocket and multiple suicide bomber attacks on Israeli civilians.
Maybe take off those famous blinkers, folks...........

Right... :rolleyes:

gandalf

Irlandese wrote: »

They didn't take their own masks off.
They let others do it, because they were sent in under a "no-fire" rule.
The operation was an ill-conceived mess, of course.
Blame politicians, not honest soldiers trying todoan impossible job.
No one here justifies the Gaza blockade either, or the reason for it, which is
over 2000 Hamas rocket and multiple suicide bomber attacks on Israeli civilians.
Maybe take off those famous blinkers, folks...........

You see if this blockade only consisted of inspecting aid to ensure no weapons were in it I would say 100% of the people here would say fair enough Israel has to maintain its safety and you would have a valid arguement.

But can you honestly say looking at the list of prescribed items that the blockade is valid and not a form of collective punishment. Why is something like coriander prescribed. The Israeli government don't want Hamas to have tasty snacks!

alastair

prinz wrote: »

Originally Posted by Fuhrer View Post
Why not just admit that it wasnt a firebomb and that you cant find anything to back up your claim that it was a firebomb?

Will you admit that what appears in that video may not be a firework?

Not skipping ahead to see if anyone else has mentioned it, but the IDF don't actually claim that object dropped onto the boarding boat was a firebomb. The video actually highlights it as a 'stun grenade'. So we can surely discount it as being a firebomb (along with the IV bottle:rolleyes:).

Is it a stun grendade? Not a chance.
It lands right beside a soldier holding some sort of long pole (I'd assume a grappling pole) over his head, and it doesn't stop him doing what he's at even momentarily - it's a firework/firecracker of some description - short burst of light and smoke.

Irlandese

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I get the security aspects of image capture and controlling same in an engagement situation, but they were quick enough to release video that suited their point of view. I can pretty much guarantee they wont release any video showing the killings. Hopefully someone got some video out. I doubt it'll show the killings either as I suspect at least some werent heat of the moment stuff and "privacy" was required.

Plus you can quote EU law all you like, but public filming and permissions involved are more complex than your take. If they weren't how come you can switch on the news and see video of newsworthy events?

I also see the usual victimhood stuff starting to creep in. The Israelis and the Palestinians are past masters of it.

Ditto I have to say. OK forget concrete and all that stuff, fresh fruit, veg, meat and fish and medical supplies?

Like I said earlier they're building a ghetto 21st century style. Emotive? Certainly? Deeply saddening and ironic? Defo

Most Israelis are desperately opposed to the Gaza blockade.
However, with the build-up of too-negative and too-one-sided external pressure and
Jihadist backed cynical PR manipulations of which the flottila was just the latest, have tended to push the general population into a kind of siege mentality as they see the the echoes of the age-old hatred of Jews coming out again.
We need peace and calm and people of good will and wisdom to in control, to get to
peace and justice for everyone in the ME.
It is crazy to try to force Israel to lift the blockade while rockets are being smuggled in
by crazzies who want to create a fanatical Islamic state in an active state of terrorism on Israel's doorstep. Sorry, have to run,

Irlandese

gandalf wrote: »

You see if this blockade only consisted of inspecting aid to ensure no weapons were in it I would say 100% of the people here would say fair enough Israel has to maintain its safety and you would have a valid arguement.

But can you honestly say looking at the list of prescribed items that the blockade is valid and not a form of collective punishment. Why is something like coriander prescribed. The Israeli government don't want Hamas to have tasty snacks!

Have to agree with you !
Have a nice day, maybe tonight , eh ?
Shalom

alastair

Foxtrol wrote: »

Where's the premeditated intent for it to be murder?

You don't need premeditation for murder. Just saying.

gandalf

Irlandese wrote: »

Have to agree with you !
Have a nice day, maybe tonight , eh ?
Shalom

Might be here, waiting on a smaller blockade to end here

Have a good day yourself

Macha

Irlandese wrote: »

Most Israelis are desperately opposed to the Gaza blockade.

Nonsense. Most Israelis have no idea about the living conditions in Gaza.

sceptre

Irlandese wrote: »

Sorry, friend, you are all at sea here.
The responses were specifically to someone's question re WHY Israel would edit the tapes. That was a very quick yet straightforward reply that still holds, despite your commentary.

Ah no, the "No, friend, I am afraid bambooze is definitely right on all counts here. In fact, under EU legislation, regarding privacy, it would be illegal to show same unedited." wasn't particularly correct or accurate. And trying to apply EU law to the footage from the Comoros-registered sailing ex-Turkey ship boarded by Israelis in international waters just tends to cast doubt on any other claims of fact.

The EU ref was to remind people living in the EU, which includes Ireland, of the very strict laws that apply there with regard to video filming. It was a bit tongue in cheek of course, but made a serious point re the legal ramifications of taking and showing public film generally.

"Ah sure, I wasn't very serious at all". Ah now, and if it was a comment about the general difficulties in filming in a public place in the EU, with all due respect, it's got nowt to do with the thread and was a red herring wasting space.

Maybe the point was too theoretical for tastes here? You prefer the kind of visceral, angry anti-Israeli stuff that we can read in some of the back posts?

I like things to be true when they're posted as fact most of all. The ad hominem bit that follows doesn't become you; it's one of those things we avoid on this forum for good reason - assumptions about people often tend to be wrong and playing the man and not the ball is in general a sleight of hand avoidance tactic.

I'm done with this sub-discussion, take the last word at your whim dude.
You haven't provided any backup despite a request and it's been a red herring from the beginning. I'll try to do your other posts the favour of assuming they're not going to be later "a bit tongue in cheek". Others will make up their own minds.

Nothing to see here I guess, have a good day:)

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Well you know.. a gaza full of iranian missiles is not exactly a good thing, probably not legal and certainly not peaceful.

Just imagine the consequences.. hamas has long range heavy duty missiles all over gaza and a war breaks out - what do you think israel will do to gaza? I don't think the gaza residents will benefit thats for sure.

The blockade is nothing to do with stopping missiles. Israel has continued control of the shipping into Gaza regardless of a blockade or not, and can check for missiles to their heart's content. Proscribing pasta, pencils or cement is what the blockade is about - collective punishment.

eoinbn

alastair wrote: »

The blockade is nothing to do with stopping missiles. Israel has continued control of the shipping into Gaza regardless of a blockade or not, and can check for missiles to their heart's content. Proscribing pasta, pencils or cement is what the blockade is about - collective punishment.

We control the shipping into this country yet billions of euro's of drugs manages to get into the country- not to mention illegal firearms, rocket launchers, grenades that the gangs use.

Memnoch

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dov_Weissglass

So much for the idea that the purpose of this blockade is to search for *cough* weapons *cough*

Macha

alastair wrote: »

The blockade is nothing to do with stopping missiles. Israel has continued control of the shipping into Gaza regardless of a blockade or not, and can check for missiles to their heart's content. Proscribing pasta, pencils or cement is what the blockade is about - collective punishment.

John Ging was just on the radio saying that some of the impacts of the blocade are:

-80% of the population queue for food aid every day
-there is no economy
-water & other infrastructure is crumbling
-90% of the water is undrinkable
-thousands of litres of untreated, raw sewage is pumped into the sea around Gaza every day, polluting one of the few sources of protein available to Gazans.

Scofflaw

eoinbn wrote: »

We control the shipping into this country yet billions of euro's of drugs manages to get into the country- not to mention illegal firearms, rocket launchers, grenades that the gangs use.

And you think that if we proscribed things like pasta, pencils or cement, we'd solve that problem?

regards,
Scofflaw

alastair

Irlandese wrote: »

To answer the question, Israel pays for everything in Gaza and is not at war with Gaza, only defending a sovereign country from terrorist attacks.

By pencils and cuddly toys.

gandalf

eoinbn wrote: »

We control the shipping into this country yet billions of euro's of drugs manages to get into the country- not to mention illegal firearms, rocket launchers, grenades that the gangs use.

The Irish Navy has eight offshore vessels to cover our territorial waters which is a lot of area considering we are an island nation.

The Israeli Navy have over 47 ships and are patrolling a smaller area of territorial waters.

sceptre

eoinbn wrote: »

We control the shipping into this country yet billions of euro's of drugs manages to get into the country- not to mention illegal firearms, rocket launchers, grenades that the gangs use.

To be fair, a big factor in that is the number of quiet inlets, little uncontrolled ports and unseen bays we've got on our long and jagged coastline (or as the Revenue Commissioners/Customs Drug Watch put it, "Ireland's quiet and rugged coastline"). Contrast the Irish jagged coastline with, well, this Our coastline is also significantly longer (the Customs Drug Watch people say they attempt to monitor 3000km of coastline, Gaza's total is 40)

alastair

Sand wrote: »

Israel is at war, where its civillians are deliberately targeted by the hostile force. Israel institutes a naval blockade of its enemies. Israels take the unprecedented step of supplying humanitarian aid to the civillians of its enemies. In this, Israel is vastly more friendly to Palestinians than Hamas is.

Independant, ad-hoc, non-sovereign forces deliberately and provocatively attempt to breach the blockade, rejecting compromises to supply civillian aid through Israeli or Eggytian ports.

Since when is instituting a naval blockade against a hostile force against international law?

When you aren't actually in a state of armed conflict with that hostile force. If that was the case then Israel would be treating Hamas as legitimate combatants, not terrorists, and extending full Geneva Convention rights, including POW status to Hamas detainees. They're not doing so.

Secondly, Hamas are not deliberately targetting civilians with their rockets. They can't target those rockets - it's entirely random where they hit - they might be aiming every single one at military targets and missing by miles.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

@kiffer


Honestly, does it matter? Was the USA and North Vietnam ever officially at war? Are North Korea and South Korea officially at war now?

Yes - if you want to claim the boarding as legal.

Yes - as defined by the Gulf of Tomkin resolution.

Yes - still officially at war.

BlaasForRafa

When you aren't actually in a state of armed conflict with that hostile force. If that was the case then Israel would be treating Hamas as legitimate combatants, not terrorists, and extending full Geneva Convention rights, including POW status to Hamas detainees. They're not doing so.

Hamas cannot sign up to the geneva convention as their portion of the palestinian authority is not a recognised state.

Secondly, Hamas are not deliberately targetting civilians with their rockets. They can't target those rockets - it's entirely random where they hit - they might be aiming every single one at military targets and missing by miles.

Its disingenuous to say that Hamas aren't hoping that Israelis are killed by their rockets. Hamas(and other Gaza based factions) don't care who the rockets kill as long as they kill someone Israeli. iirc the last civilian to be killed by rocket fire was actually an immigrant worker from thailand.

gandalf

Interesting piece from Robert Fisk on reporting of the incident in todays Independent.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/robert-fisk-the-world-must-see-through-israels-lies-2208898.html

...Yet by week's end, the protesters had become 'armed peace activists', vicious anti-Semites professing pacifism, seething with hate, pounding away at another human being with a metal pole. I liked the last bit. The fact that the person being beaten was apparently shooting another human being with a rifle didn't quite get into this weird version of reality.

halkar

Al Jazeera reports that Israeli's now boarded on MV Rachel Corrie. There is no violence reported so far.

eoinbn

Scofflaw wrote: »

And you think that if we proscribed things like pasta, pencils or cement, we'd solve that problem?

regards,
Scofflaw

Pasta is allowed AFAIK, and there is very good reasons for banning cement, although it is unfortunate given the mess that Gaza is in.

Look, I get your point but you would thing that he people of this country would understand that this things are never completely one sided.