Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

youcrazyjesus!

eoinbn wrote: »

Pasta is allowed AFAIK, and there is very good reasons for banning cement, although it is unfortunate given the mess that Gaza is in.

Look, I get your point but you would thing that he people of this country would understand that this things are never completely one sided.

I challenge anyone to justify the published list of prohibited items.

alastair

eoinbn wrote: »

We control the shipping into this country yet billions of euro's of drugs manages to get into the country- not to mention illegal firearms, rocket launchers, grenades that the gangs use.

Gaza isn't Ireland - for all the obvious reasons. There are effectively three (count em) access points into Gaza - Erez, Karni, and the port (plus Rafah - which is generally closed, and isn't suited towards any scale of transport). It's logistically much easier for the Israelis to set up a border regime that checks for missiles than it is for Ireland to keep out whatever contraband comes into this country. What's also absolutely clear is that banning pencils has nothing, but nothing, to do with missiles.

gandalf

eoinbn wrote: »

Pasta is allowed AFAIK, and there is very good reasons for banning cement, although it is unfortunate given the mess that Gaza is in.

Enlighten us as to the reasons to ban cement please?

Look, I get your point but you would thing that he people of this country would understand that this things are never completely one sided.

Ok explain it from you point of view, justify why so many medical and construction items are banned.

Have a read of this article from todays UK Independent as well.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-other-side-of-the-gaza-blockade-1992076.html

Here a couple of quotes from it.

...Taysir Al Burai is severely disabled. He requires round-the-clock medical care. If he were allowed to leave Gaza, he could make a full recovery. But Israel won't let him...

..At Gaza's al-Shifa hospital, doctors gaze morosely at a grey building that is only half-built. It was supposed to be the hospital's new wing, designed to boost capacity by 30 per cent, but construction was abandoned after the siege prevented any building materials from getting through.

That is perhaps the least of their problems. Doctors say they lack even the most basic equipment, such as sterilisers. Both of their CT scanners can be out of order for weeks at a time because it can take more than a month to obtain the spare parts. Many of the doctors have outdated skills, but cannot travel abroad for training..

Pretty damning stuff eh. How many people are being tortured indirectly by the inhumane policy of an illegal blockade.

How can Israeli's who are quoted as saying "'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger" actually sleep at night.

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hamas cannot sign up to the geneva convention as their portion of the palestinian authority is not a recognised state.

Oh, but it's recognised as a High Contracting Party - which does just as well for the convention - and Israel have quite clearly defined Hamas as 'ruling' gaza.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its disingenuous to say that Hamas aren't hoping that Israelis are killed by their rockets. Hamas don't care who the rockets kill as long as they kill someone Israeli. iirc the last civilian to be killed by rocket fire was actually an immigrant worker from thailand.

It's also entirely false to claim that the rockets are deliberately targeted at civilians. They can't be targeted.

Grumpypants

alastair wrote: »

Secondly, Hamas are not deliberately targetting civilians with their rockets. They can't target those rockets - it's entirely random where they hit - they might be aiming every single one at military targets and missing by miles.

There is a lot of stupid comments on this thread but this one really is something else. What about the bombs they strap to civilians and walk them into cafe's or because they are bombs they cant be "targeted" either ??

I cant understand this constant sweeping under the carpet of the actions of one side and the out rage at perfectly reasonable actions of the others to protect themselves.

Simple facts are if they have money to spend on rockets and bombs then they have money to spend on water for the civilians its just they consider blowing up innocent people more important than feeding their own people. If they stopped launching rockets then their infrastructure would stop getting attacked.

taconnol wrote: »

Nonsense. Most Israelis have no idea about the living conditions in Gaza.

What ?

alastair

eoinbn wrote: »

Pasta is allowed AFAIK

JERUSALEM — For more than seven weeks, the international aid group Mercy Corps has been trying to send 90 tons of macaroni to the Gaza Strip as part of a global campaign to help the 1.4 million Palestinians there rebuild their lives after Israel's recent 22-day military operation.

Israel, which controls most of what goes into and out of Gaza, has said no repeatedly.

At first, Israeli officials said they wanted to make sure the macaroni wasn't destined for a Hamas charity. Then they said macaroni was banned because they didn't consider it an essential food.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008787298_macaroni26.html

Disclaimer - it may or may not be currently proscribed - the nonsense of the list stands.

alastair

Grumpypants wrote: »

There is a lot of stupid comments on this thread but this one really is something else. What about the bombs they strap to civilians and walk them into cafe's or because they are bombs they cant be "targeted" either ??

No suicide bomber has ever entered Israel from Gaza.

BlaasForRafa

alastair wrote: »

Oh, but it's recognised as a High Contracting Party - which does just as well for the convention - and Israel have quite clearly defined Hamas as 'ruling' gaza.



It's also entirely false to claim that the rockets are deliberately targeted at civilians. They can't be targeted.

They can be aimed in as much as they can be elevated to whatever range the attackers are aiming for and they can point them in the direction of civilian areas, they aren't hoping to kill a patch of sand you know. Also the Grad rockets that the palestinians have started using are longer range and more stable in flight than the home made Kassam rockets.

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

They can be aimed in as much as they can be elevated to whatever range the attackers are aiming for and they can point them in the direction of civilian areas, they aren't hoping to kill a patch of sand you know. Also the Grad rockets that the palestinians have started using are longer range and more stable in flight than the home made Kassam rockets.

They can certainly point the Qassam rockets into Israel - if that's what you consider aiming, but it's nothing close to 'deliberately targeting civilians'.

How many Israelis have been killed by Grad rockets?

Grumpypants

alastair wrote: »

They can certainly point the Qassam rockets into Israel - if that's what you consider aiming, but it's nothing close to 'deliberately targeting civilians'.

How many Israelis have been killed by Grad rockets?

They look at a civilian populated area, point a rocket and fire it at them and thats not targeting civilians :rolleyes:

You have to be on a wind up.

alastair

Grumpypants wrote: »

They look at a civilian populated area, point a rocket and fire it at them and thats not targeting civilians :rolleyes:

They can't target the rocket. It doesn't matter that they're looking at civilian populated areas, IDF military bases, or Willy Wonka's chocolate factory - they can't control where the thing goes.

karma_

This thread is getting seriously derailed. I really fail to see what discussing Hamas has got to do with an aid ship being boarded in international waters and 9 people being killed.

Byron85

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded.

Israeli troops have boarded the Irish-Malaysian Rachel Corrie vessel, which is trying to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza.
An Israeli military spokeswoman is quoted in Reuters as saying the boarding took place with the full compliance of the crew.
The Irish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign said the ship is now heading to the Israeli port of Ashdod and is expected to dock there in the next few hours.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0605/mideast.html

alastair

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0605/mideast.html

Odds on the cement getting through from Ashdod?

Macha

Grumpypants wrote: »

What ?

FEW ISRAELIS KNOW what the Palestinians go through every day, under siege in Gaza and imprisoned within a system of enclaves on the West Bank.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0605/1224271891676.html

karma_

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded.




http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0605/mideast.html

on the BBC also, peacefully boarded and no resistance, however;

Israel says it will transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.

I guess anything of real value including canned fruit and the like will be confiscated.

alastair

Before:

"We have no interest in boarding the ship. If it sails directly to the Ashdod port, we will secure its crew and refrain from boarding it. Israel is prepared to receive the ship and unload its cargo. After it is checked to make sure it contains no weapons we will be prepared to transfer all of the goods to Gaza,"

After:

Israel says it will transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.

Spot the difference.

Grumpypants

karma_ wrote: »

This thread is getting seriously derailed. I really fail to see what discussing Hamas has got to do with an aid ship being boarded in international waters and 9 people being killed.

So you don't see the link between Hamas using these boats before to smuggle in weapons and why the Israeli's wanted to search them ? and why when they tried to break through the blockade and rush towards a port that they took military action. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Zulu

Grumpypants wrote: »

So you don't see the link between Hamas using these boats before to smuggle in weapons and why the Israeli's wanted to search them ? and why when they tried to break through the blockade and rush towards a port that they took military action. Seems pretty obvious to me.

The important part is that Israel murdered unarmed innocent civilians in international waters.


(...not what may, might or could have been.)

Orion

So now that an Irish ship has been boarded and the crew kidnapped by the Israelis I presume Martin will expel the ambassador. Or am I being naive :rolleyes:

Grumpypants

Wow unarmed civilians don't attack soldiers coming to check their boat and don't get shot. What a surprise

Now all the people in Gaza who are starving can get their life saving concrete and footballs.

alastair

Macros42 wrote: »

So now that an Irish ship has been boarded and the crew kidnapped by the Israelis I presume Martin will expel the ambassador. Or am I being naive :rolleyes:

It sounds like they waited until the ship had entered Gazan territorial waters, in which case they had a legal right to board the ship.

karma_

Grumpypants wrote: »

Now all the people in Gaza who are starving can get their life saving concrete and footballs.

Would you have said the same about someone trying to deliver aid to the Warsaw ghetto?

BlaasForRafa

Macros42 wrote: »

So now that an Irish ship has been boarded and the crew kidnapped by the Israelis I presume Martin will expel the ambassador. Or am I being naive :rolleyes:

The ship is registered in Cambodia, not Ireland, so you're not only naive but ill-informed.

alastair

Grumpypants wrote: »

So you don't see the link between Hamas using these boats before to smuggle in weapons and why the Israeli's wanted to search them ? and why when they tried to break through the blockade and rush towards a port that they took military action. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Again - the blockade/proscribed list is quite separate to Israel's right to check shipments into Gaza.

BlaasForRafa

karma_ wrote: »

Would you have said the same about someone trying to deliver aid to the Warsaw ghetto?

Strawman argument.

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The ship is registered in Cambodia, not Ireland, so you're not only naive but ill-informed.

Martin warned against actions against the Irish citizens - not the ship.

Orion

alastair wrote: »

It sounds like they waited until the ship had entered Gazan territorial waters, in which case they had a legal right to board the ship.

Only if you recognise their legal right to maintain a blockade. They have no right to police Gazan waters.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The ship is registered in Cambodia, not Ireland, so you're not only naive but ill-informed.

It's owned and operated by the Irish arm of an organisation and its home port is Dundalk. Where the boat is registered is irrelevant.

alastair

Grumpypants wrote: »

Wow unarmed civilians don't attack soldiers coming to check their boat and don't get shot. What a surprise.

Yeah. Well done Israel. :rolleyes:

I sincerely hope for Israel's security that they check to see if there's any 'sophisticated weapons' in the ship's galley.

karma_

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Strawman argument.

So you thank an idiotic post making a snide comment about the 1.5 million Gazans getting footballs and cement and yet I'm making the strawman argument?