Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

youcrazyjesus!

ZakaiNaaman wrote: »

Yes it does, because if you are against The Zionist then you refuse The Jews a homeland, thus you are an anti Semite. A Zionist is A Jew that believes in A Jewish Homeland. Return to Zion. Get it?

I think even the most hardened critic of Israel, even with an organisation like Hamas, would say they would be happy if Israel returned to it's 1967 borders. That's all Israel has to do for long term peace and security, give up land in the West Bank and Gaza it has no right to and comply with international law. Nobody is suggesting Israel should disband itself. You're talking nonsense I'm afraid.

Macha

ZakaiNaaman wrote: »

Yes it does, because if you are against The Zionist then you refuse The Jews a homeland, thus you are an anti Semite. A Zionist is A Jew that believes in A Jewish Homeland. Return to Zion. Get it?

Ah the myth of the self-hating Jews.

Actually, many Jews consider Zionism to be a breakaway sect, designed to lead the Jews away from the Torah. So your attempts to portray all Jews as Zionists, in a blatant attempt to paint anyone who has a problem with any of Israel's actions as as anti-Semitic are more than a little flawed.

Then there's the fact that you can recognise Israel's right to exist and defend itself while not supporting its chosen method of doing so, or its consequences on other people.

Scofflaw

ZakaiNaaman wrote: »

3,600 replies and you want me to read through them? Just tell me who here supports Israel and wy is there so much Anti Semitism here. Your all acting like Nazi's.

At the risk of being accused of acting like a Nazi...I had already banned ZakaiNaaman for playing the anti-Semite card on another thread. Reading his posts here wins him an upgrade to a permaban.

If anyone wishes to appeal on his behalf (I'm assuming he won't know how to do it), then by PM to me please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

gandalf

ZakaiNaaman wrote: »

How are these Peaceful Aid ships if they were armed?

You have examined what they were armed with, the contents of the cutlery tray from the kitchen, contents of the toolbox, my god even the contents of the medical kit has been labelled a weapon.

The operation was illegal. It was in International Waters and it should never have been undertaking in the form that it was by Israel forces.

No amount of smearing, calling people names, jumping up and down and shouting its not fair is going to change the facts that Israel stepped over the mark last Monday and murder people, injured people and kidnapped people.

Paddy Samurai

Load of stuff now released by idf on youtube .Found it through skynews.

http://blogs.news.sky.com/middleeastblog/Post:a10f8817-7d5b-481c-8657-5aac3efe60e4



Ship radio transmissions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dE2StbDL_Q&feature=player_embedded

gandalf

You are aware that you are supposed to put your own opinion on stuff in this forum. Its not AH?

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Load of stuff now released by idf on youtube .Found it through skynews.

http://blogs.news.sky.com/middleeastblog/Post:a10f8817-7d5b-481c-8657-5aac3efe60e4

Ship radio transmissions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dE2StbDL_Q&feature=player_embedded

Yes it "appears" they said bad things. Appears is the key word here.

But does that justify assaulting the ships Illegally in International Waters, murdering people, injuring people and kidnapping people?

Run_to_da_hills

28 children orphaned by Flotilla attack.

this is so sad.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129187&sectionid=351020202

Ben Hadad

It appears that America is backing Israel to carry out the formal investiagtion into the attack.

Surely we can all agree that in the interest of transperency that this really needs to be carried out by an independent body. I do not believe that anybody will be able to accept the reports findings and it will always be tainted with the possibility of bias.

Surely the UN or NATO would be better postioned to investigate this with integrity.

Also a valid point was made by a journalist in Israel.

The attack occurred in international water, and it involved a Turkish vessel (which is regarded as Turkish sovereign territory) and Israeli soldiers. Even if one thinks that the soldiers had the right to board the ship in order to impose the blockade, during the fight it was still Turkish territory. How can Israel investigate something that happened in another country?

http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=2942

Run_to_da_hills

Ben Hadad wrote: »

It appears that America is backing Israel to carry out the formal investiagtion into the attack.

Surely we can all agree that in the interest of transperency that this really needs to be carried out by an independent body. I do not believe that anybody will be able to accept the reports findings and it will always be tainted with the possibility of bias.

Surely the UN or NATO would be better postioned to investigate this with integrity.

Also a valid point was made by a journalist in Israel.


http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=2942

There is one US Congressman I have a lot of respect for.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129074

BlaasForRafa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is one US Congressman I have a lot of respect for.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129074

If posts giving links to IDF sources can be criticised then so can those giving links to official Iranian government broadcasting channels. Kucinich seems to be quite friendly towards Iran so its no surprise that he'd say something that their government would approve of.

youcrazyjesus!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If posts giving links to IDF sources can be criticised then so can those giving links to official Iranian government broadcasting channels. Kucinich seems to be quite friendly towards Iran so its no surprise that he'd say something that their government would approve of.

There's a difference between linking to propaganda/rhetoric/analysis/disputed documentary evidence and linking to some uncontroversial facts or a report of someone's words. It shouldn't really need to be explained why this is.

alastair

Irish citizen Ken O’Keefe's statement on the boarding/violence/stolen IDF guns:


I remember being asked durýng the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq if I was a pacifist, I responded with a quote from Gandhi by saying I am not a passive anything. To the contrary I believe in action, and I also believe in self-defence, 100%, without reservation. I would be incapable of standing by while a tyrant murders my family, and the attack on the Mavri Mamara was like an attack on my Palestinian family. I am proud to have stood shoulder to shoulder with those who refused to let a rogue Israeli military exert their will without a fight. And yes, we fought.

When I was asked, in the event of an Israeli attack on the Mavri Mamara, would I use the camera, or would I defend the ship? I enthusiastically committed to defence of the ship. Although I am also a huge supporter of non-violence, in fact I believe non-violence must always be the first option. Nonetheless I joined the defence of the Mavri Mamarra understanding that violence could be used against us and that we may very well be compelled to use violence in self defence.

I said this straight to Israeli agents, probably of Mossad or Shin Bet, and I say it again now, on the morning of the attack I was directly involved in the disarming of two Israeli Commandos. This was a forcible, non-negotiable, separation of weapons from commandos who had already murdered two brothers that I had seen that day.

One brother with a bullet entering dead center in his forehead, in what appeared to be an execution. I knew the commandos were murdering when I removed a 9mm pistol from one of them. I had that gun in my hands and as an ex-US Marine with training in the use of guns it was completely within my power to use that gun on the commando who may have been the murderer of one of my brothers. But that is not what I, nor any other defender of the ship did. I took that weapon away, removed the bullets, proper lead bullets, separated them from the weapon and hid the gun.

I did this in the hopes that we would repel the attack and submit this weapon as evidence in a criminal trial against Israeli authorities for mass murder. I also helped to physically separate one commando from his assault rifle, which another brother apparently through into the sea. I and hundreds of others know the truth that makes a mockery of the brave and moral Israeli military.

We had in our full possession, three completely disarmed and helpless commandos. These boys were at our mercy, they were out of reach of their fellow murderers, inside the ship and surrounded by 100 or more men. I looked into the eyes of all three of these boys and I can tell you they had the fear of God in them. They looked at us as if we were them, and I have no doubt they did not believe there was any way they would survive that day. They looked like frightened children in the face of an abusive father. But they did not face an enemy as ruthless as they.

Instead the woman provided basic first aid, and ultimately they were released, battered and bruised for sure, but alive. Able to live another day. Able to feel the sun over head and the embrace of loved ones. Unlike those they murdered. Despite mourning the loss of our brothers, feeling rage towards these boys, we let them go. The Israeli prostitutes of propaganda can spew all of their disgusting bile all they wish, the commandos are the murders, we are the defenders, and yet we fought. We fought not just for our lives, not just for our cargo, not just for the people of Palestine, we fought in the name of justice and humanity. We were right to do so, in every way.

More here - including the treatment that landed him in hospital in Istanbul.

Remy13

ZakaiNaaman wrote: »

Yes it does, because if you are against The Zionist then you refuse The Jews a homeland, thus you are an anti Semite.

palestinians are also a semite people. so if you refuse them a homeland, by the same logic, are you also an anti-semite?

Remy13

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If posts giving links to IDF sources can be criticised then so can those giving links to official Iranian government broadcasting channels. Kucinich seems to be quite friendly towards Iran so its no surprise that he'd say something that their government would approve of.

what has he said in that article that you take issue with? there is no spin, only facts.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich wrote:

"If our nation fails to act in any substantive way, the United States licenses the violence and we are complicit in it and our own citizens will be forced to pay the consequences," Kucinich wrote.

Clawdeeus

Although I have alot of respect for the people on board the flotila, that Ken O’Keefe guy is incredibly self righteous.

Eibhin70

Hurriyet, a turkish newsapaper has published photos of Israeli Commando soldiers bruised, bleeding after being beaten by these "so-called" innocent peace loving activists aboard Gaza-bound Marmara aid vessel.....

I'm sure Ghandhi must be proud:rolleyes:

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

Memnoch

Eibhin70 wrote: »

Hurriyet, a turkish newsapaper has published photos of Israeli Commando soldiers bruised, bleeding after being beaten by these "so-called" innocent peace loving activists aboard Gaza-bound Marmara aid vessel.....

I'm sure Ghandhi must be proud:rolleyes:

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

Right, let's see the Israeli government release photos of the 45 people they shot up on the Mavi Mamara (including the nine that we're killed) lying in pools of blood on the deck of the ship for comparison.

Honestly, this kind of propaganda might fly on sky news but it's not going to go unchallenged on here.

Right now, I'm not interested in any material that supports Israel's assertions unless there is a full release of video verified by experts that it hasn't been tampered with.

Pull the other one.

duridian

Eibhin70 wrote:

Hurriyet, a turkish newsapaper has published photos of Israeli Commando soldiers bruised, bleeding after being beaten by these "so-called" innocent peace loving activists aboard Gaza-bound Marmara aid vessel.....

I'm sure Ghandhi must be proud

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/Ga...6575&p=1&rid=2

Somehow, I think Ghandhi would have a harder task reconciling the IDF's behaviour this past week with their own code of conduct/behaviour, than that of the flotilla activists.

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/doctrine/ethics.htm

Ethics

The IDF Spirit
The Israel Defense Forces are the state of Israel's military force. The IDF is subordinate to the directions of the democratic civilian authorities and the laws of the state. The goal of the IDF is to protect the existence of the State of Israel and her independence, and to thwart all enemy efforts to disrupt the normal way of life in Israel. IDF soldiers are obligated to fight, to dedicate all their strength and even sacrifice their lives in order to protect the State of Israel, her citizens and residents. IDF soldiers will operate according to the IDF values and orders, while adhering to the laws of the state and norms of human dignity, and honoring the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.

Spirit of the IDF-Definition and Origins
The Spirit of the IDF is the identity card of the IDF values, which should stand as the foundation of all of the activities of every IDF soldier, on regular or reserve duty. The Spirit of the IDF and the guidelines of operation resulting from it are the ethical code of the IDF. The Spirit of the IDF will be applied by the IDF, its soldiers, its officers, its units and corps to shape their mode of action. They will behave, educate and evaluate themselves and others according to the Spirit of the IDF.


The Spirit of the IDF draws on four sources:
• The tradition of the IDF and its military heritage as the Israel Defense Forces.
• The tradition of the State of Israel, its democratic principles, laws and institutions.
• The tradition of the Jewish People throughout their history.
• Universal moral values based on the value and dignity of human life.

Basic Values:
Defense of the State, its Citizens and its Residents - The IDF's goal is to defend the existence of the State of Israel, its independence and the security of the citizens and residents of the state.
Love of the Homeland and Loyalty to the Country - At the core of service in the IDF stand the love of the homeland and the commitment and devotion to the State of Israel-a democratic state that serves as a national home for the Jewish People-its citizens and residents.
Human Dignity - The IDF and its soldiers are obligated to protect human dignity. Every human being is of value regardless of his or her origin, religion, nationality, gender, status or position.

The Values:
Tenacity of Purpose in Performing Missions and Drive to Victory - The IDF servicemen and women will fight and conduct themselves with courage in the face of all dangers and obstacles; They will persevere in their missions resolutely and thoughtfully even to the point of endangering their lives.
Responsibility - The IDF serviceman or woman will see themselves as active participants in the defense of the state, its citizens and residents. They will carry out their duties at all times with initiative, involvement and diligence with common sense and within the framework of their authority, while prepared to bear responsibility for their conduct.
Credibility - The IDF servicemen and women shall present things objectively, completely and precisely, in planning, performing and reporting. They will act in such a manner that their peers and commanders can rely upon them in performing their tasks.
Personal Example - The IDF servicemen and women will comport themselves as required of them, and will demand of themselves as they demand of others, out of recognition of their ability and responsibility within the military and without to serve as a deserving role model.
Human Life - The IDF servicemen and women will act in a judicious and safe manner in all they do, out of recognition of the supreme value of human life. During combat they will endanger themselves and their comrades only to the extent required to carry out their mission.
Purity of Arms - The IDF servicemen and women will use their weapons and force only for the purpose of their mission, only to the necessary extent and will maintain their humanity even during combat. IDF soldiers will not use their weapons and force to harm human beings who are not combatants or prisoners of war, and will do all in their power to avoid causing harm to their lives, bodies, dignity and property.
Professionalism - The IDF servicemen and women will acquire the professional knowledge and skills required to perform their tasks, and will implement them while striving continuously to perfect their personal and collective achievements.
Discipline - The IDF servicemen and women will strive to the best of their ability to fully and successfully complete all that is required of them according to orders and their spirit. IDF soldiers will be meticulous in giving only lawful orders, and shall refrain from obeying blatantly illegal orders.
Comradeship - The IDF servicemen and women will act out of fraternity and devotion to their comrades, and will always go to their assistance when they need their help or depend on them, despite any danger or difficulty, even to the point of risking their lives.
Sense of Mission - The IDF soldiers view their service in the IDF as a mission; They will be ready to give their all in order to defend the state, its citizens and residents. This is due to the fact that they are representatives of the IDF who act on the basis and in the framework of the authority given to them in accordance with IDF orders.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results

Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

Irlandese

Eibhin70 wrote: »

Hurriyet, a turkish newsapaper has published photos of Israeli Commando soldiers bruised, bleeding after being beaten by these "so-called" innocent peace loving activists aboard Gaza-bound Marmara aid vessel.....

I'm sure Ghandhi must be proud:rolleyes:

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

Thank you for that reference.
Does Memnoch really believe that a Turkish newspaper would be printing "pro-Israeli propoganda"?
I would say that it is very important and opportune that writers here have an opportunity to see how lightly
dressed and armed the soldiers were, who were ordered to board the ship,
without assault rifles and under orders to avoid bloodshed if at all possible.
The blockade is a serious mistake. The night-time boarding, by almost un-armed
commandos, with orders to almost deny their training, was a politically ordered farce
and re-bounded badly, contributing but not solely responsible to the many lost lives
as a result. The blame lies in a lot of hands. A bit like the ME generally.
It behoves us all to look at this thread with open minds and honesty and not to be
herded along or do the herding, towards the same old opposing corners, shouting from
fixed positions, without interest in the merits of our opponents arguaments.
I used to be an active pro-palestinian with no regard for Israeli rights or arguaments.
It was easy. No need to think or to measure. Just shout and oppose etc. etc. between
various fund-raising, humanitarian and political activism activities. I thought I was on the right side. Now I am a little more aware and a lot more cautious. Now I admire many Israeli peace activists and have friends with other points of view but who share my dream of a ME free of war, terrorism, hate and injustice.
I see a secular Israel creating something important in a ME made up of misoginistic, backward, undemocratic, dangerous regimes who hate the West and in many cases want to impose a hating and un-just fundamentalist Islamic way of life on everyone.
But then, maybe I am wasting my time arguing here?

By the way, that ZakaiNaaman "poster" who was rightly banned earlier is more than likely some kind of a set-up. He/she seemed simply to be trying to undermine the arguaments of those of us with an open mind on Israel's stance here, with crazy comments, rather than an honest but deluded individual. I suggest his/her contributions be ignored and not allowed to take up more space.
Peace !

Irlandese

Ben Hadad wrote: »

It appears that America is backing Israel to carry out the formal investiagtion into the attack.

Surely we can all agree that in the interest of transperency that this really needs to be carried out by an independent body. I do not believe that anybody will be able to accept the reports findings and it will always be tainted with the possibility of bias.

Surely the UN or NATO would be better postioned to investigate this with integrity.

Also a valid point was made by a journalist in Israel.


http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=2942

If this point was not off thread, I would like to comment on it?
Nato and the Un are both less than honest brokers here and thus unsuitable for such a role. The UN in particular is unfortunately particularly corrupt both at general assembly and at basic staff standards levels. Corruption and bias are unfortunately now irredeemebly part of the culture of that organisation, particularly since Koffi Annan's time there.
I speak as an ex, one-time relatively senior staffer.

In summary:

• Some activists resisted the IDF with makeshift weapons.
• The IDF reacted fiercely but with better weapons.
• Deaths occured as is to be expected and is the form with the IDF in the face of any stern resistance [and it was stern].
• An irish boat resisted peacefully,nobody hurt.
• The IDF interventions happened in international waters,the legality of which is not determined but open to question.

Whilst I think Israel were WRONG to put it mildly and if its bombs they are worried about in Gaza ,they should choose a UN force to police it's imports and exports...I also believe some of these activists wanted this confrontation.
They should have behaved like those on the Irish boat.
Not doing so mires their position somewhat.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

In summary:

• Some activists resisted the IDF with makeshift weapons.
• The IDF reacted fiercely but with better weapons.
• Deaths occured as is to be expected and is the form with the IDF in the face of any stern resistance [and it was stern].
• An irish boat resisted peacefully,nobody hurt.
• The IDF interventions happened in international waters,the legality of which is not determined but open to question.

Whilst I think Israel were WRONG to put it mildly and if its bombs they are worried about in Gaza ,they should choose a UN force to police it's imports and exports...I also believe some of these activists wanted this confrontation.
They should have behaved like those on the Irish boat.
Not doing so mires their position somewhat.

I would say it was more like;

- Some activists defended themselves from the IDF attack with makeshift weapons
- The IDF attacked fiercely with better weapons
- Deaths occured as is to be expected and is the form with the IDF in the face of any stern defence [and it was stern]
- An irish boat was not attacked, nobody hurt
- The IDF attack happened in international waters which may rationally be considered illegal

gandalf

Irlandese wrote: »

Thank you for that reference.
I would say that it is important that writers here have an opportunity to see how lightly
dressed and armed the soldiers were, who were ordered to board the ship,
without assault rifles and under orders to avoid bloodshed if at all possible.

But given that there are accounts from the people on the boat that they stripped those soldiers of equipment this is nothing of the sort.

In the thermal imaging taken by the IDF themselves you see fully booted and suit troops repelling onto the deck.

I am disappointed in you saying this about those photos, they prove nothing except some troops were captured.

The blockade is a serious mistake.

Personally I would say something that is causing the damage that the blockade is to civilians in Gaza is a crime.

The night-time boarding, by almost un-armed
commandos, with orders to almost deny their training, was a politically ordered farce
and re-bounded badly, contributing but not solely responsible to the many lost lives
as a result.

The illegal night time boarding by armed commandos. There is no such thing as almost unarmed, please you insult our intelligence here.

The blame lies in a lot of hands.

Yes with the hands whose fingers pulled the triggers that ended 9 lives. But more so with the Politicians who decided to sanction this operation, put their troops in harms way physically and legally.

A bit like the ME generally.
It behoves us all to look at this thread with open minds and honesty and not to be
herded along or do the herding, towards the same old opposing corners, shouting from
fixed positions, without interest in the merits of our opponents arguaments.

I am actually not a staunch Anti this or Pro that type of person. I see the merits and the negatives on both sides of the ME question. I do get quite upset when I see someone riding roughshod over International Law, an action that could provide precedence to others around the world to do the same.

For example I believe that Iran is a clear and present danger to peace in the ME. After this illegal operation by Israel though do you reckon its going to be easy to get sanctions against them?

I used to be an active pro-palestinian with no regard for Israeli rights or arguaments.

You can claim this but I'll be honest I don't believe you. (Sorry for saying this as I do like your posting style).

It was easy. No need to think or to measure. Just shout and oppose etc. etc. between
various fund-raising, humanitarian and political activism activities. I thought I was on the right side. Now I am a little more aware and a lot more cautious. Now I admire many Israeli peace activists and have friends with other points of view but who share my dream of a ME free of war, terrorism, hate and injustice.

Unfortunately to get a ME free of war, terrorism hate and injustice both sides are going to have to talk directly. Both are going to have to compromise to an extent that it is going to hurt, badly. We know this from the Good Friday agreement here in Ireland. And you will still have extremists who will want to derail things.

I see a secular Israel creating something important in a ME made up of misoginistic, backward, undemocratic, dangerous regimes who hate the West and in many cases want to impose a hating and un-just fundamentalist Islamic way of life on everyone.
But then, maybe I am wasting my time arguing here?

If that is your believe and it is genuine then Israeli society needs to stop this effort of de-humanising a whole people.

As for wasting your time arguing here maybe you are maybe you aren't. Only you can be the judge of that.

By the way, that ZakaiNaaman "poster" who was rightly banned earlier is more than likely some kind of a set-up. He/she seemed simply to be trying to undermine the arguaments of those of us with an open mind on Israel's stance here, with crazy comments, rather than an honest but deluded individual. I suggest his/her contributions be ignored and not allowed to take up more space.
Peace !

To be honest for every contentious issue there are ZakaiNaamans. They are easy to spot and easy to discount.

One final point about the photos that prompted this sub discussion. If the protesters had enough time to strip those soldiers of all their equipment and enough time to drag them downstairs they certainly had enough time to kill them if that was their goal?

Memnoch

Deleted User wrote: »

In summary:
I also believe some of these activists wanted this confrontation.

Then you've been hoodwinked by the Israeli PR machine because this is exactly the kind of narrative they have been trying to create. There has been no evidence to suggest that the activists wanted a physical confrontation. And wanting has nothing to do with it. At the end of the day it was Israel's choice to board ships carrying humanitarian aid with a military force in the middle of the night. And they should not be allowed to get away with reduced responsbility for their arrogant and foolhardy decision.

They should have behaved like those on the Irish boat.
Not doing so mires their position somewhat.

Or maybe the IDF should have behaved the same way in the first incident as they did in the second one. See how easy that is to spin this sort of conjecture whatever which way?

Noreen1

Irlandese wrote: »

If this point was not off thread, I would like to comment on it?
Nato and the Un are both less than honest brokers here and thus unsuitable for such a role. The UN in particular is unfortunately particularly corrupt both at general assembly and at basic staff standards levels. Corruption and bias are unfortunately now irredeemebly part of the culture of that organisation, particularly since Koffi Annan's time there.
I speak as an ex, one-time relatively senior staffer.

I'm not qualified to comment on the internal affairs of either the UN, or NATO - though I have genuine, and obvious, difficulty accepting that there are no staff working in either of those organisations that Israel deems trustworthy.

Be that as it may - I refuse to accept that there is no Country or Organisation that would be acceptable to Israel to operate as an Independent broker for such a role.

Seriously - poor Israel has absolutely no-one that it can trust to act as an impartial broker? Rubbish!

Noreen

Irlandese

gandalf wrote: »

But given that there are accounts from the people on the boat that they stripped those soldiers of equipment this is nothing of the sort.

In the thermal imaging taken by the IDF themselves you see fully booted and suit troops repelling onto the deck.

I am disappointed in you saying this about those photos, they prove nothing except some troops were captured.



Personally I would say something that is causing the damage that the blockade is to civilians in Gaza is a crime.



The illegal night time boarding by armed commandos. There is no such thing as almost unarmed, please you insult our intelligence here.



Yes with the hands whose fingers pulled the triggers that ended 9 lives. But more so with the Politicians who decided to sanction this operation, put their troops in harms way physically and legally.



I am actually not a staunch Anti this or Pro that type of person. I see the merits and the negatives on both sides of the ME question. I do get quite upset when I see someone riding roughshod over International Law, an action that could provide precedence to others around the world to do the same.

For example I believe that Iran is a clear and present danger to peace in the ME. After this illegal operation by Israel though do you reckon its going to be easy to get sanctions against them?



You can claim this but I'll be honest I don't believe you. (Sorry for saying this as I do like your posting style).



Unfortunately to get a ME free of war, terrorism hate and injustice both sides are going to have to talk directly. Both are going to have to compromise to an extent that it is going to hurt, badly. We know this from the Good Friday agreement here in Ireland. And you will still have extremists who will want to derail things.



If that is your believe and it is genuine then Israeli society needs to stop this effort of de-humanising a whole people.

As for wasting your time arguing here maybe you are maybe you aren't. Only you can be the judge of that.



To be honest for every contentious issue there are ZakaiNaamans. They are easy to spot and easy to discount.

One final point about the photos that prompted this sub discussion. If the protesters had enough time to strip those soldiers of all their equipment and enough time to drag them downstairs they certainly had enough time to kill them if that was their goal?

Hi Gandalf,
Sorry but will have to be brief, as I am off out again.
How do you do that splitting upand piecemeal commenting thing?
I am afraid that I am not all that computer skilled-up !
So bear with me ! I agree that you have an open mind and we are actually not that far awayfrom our respective positions. I am less worried about Iran, for instance. I like your posting style too and sorry I cannot give more info re my former activities, as it would clearly identify me and i like my anonymity !
The guy has his leg holster and light shoes but lacks his flack jacket and helmet with night vision goggles and comm pack. He had a paint-ball "toy" gun and probably a kit belt, but that is probably it. If a fully kitted up squad had come in, intent on force, the kit and the story would have been a lot different, although totally wrong, of course.
The current Israeli PM and Foreign Minister have a lot of blame in all this. It is almost clear from media leaks that the defence Minister was forced into poor decisions by his PM at the behest of the FM and other Likud hawks. There are also problems with a growing presence of orthodox fundamentalists in the IDF. They still have to work up the ranks but their 30% plus presence at officer cadet level is a cancer that will cause major problems down the road if Israel wishes to make the compromises it must to meet Palestinians half way.
I wish more posters here were like us ! Ha ha ! You have to laugh too, in life !
Humour is a great tool in peace-making.
Have a good Sunday,
Shalom

gandalf

This one further aside on those pictures I actually hope that the IDF didn't release them because if they did they have reveal the identity of Special Forces commandos. Maybe they did so to show the fear on their faces (and yes they do looked very scared) but I would have thought that the paramount duty of the state that sent those Commandos on this operation would be to protect their identities?

If so it appears that the propaganda aims have to be met no matter the cost to their own citizens and troops let alone those they consider enemies.

Eibhin70

gandalf wrote: »

This one further aside on those pictures I actually hope that the IDF didn't release them because if they did they have reveal the identity of Special Forces commandos. Maybe they did so to show the fear on their faces (and yes they do looked very scared) but I would have thought that the paramount duty of the state that sent those Commandos on this operation would be to protect their identities?

If so it appears that the propaganda aims have to be met no matter the cost to their own citizens and troops let alone those they consider enemies.

Their faces are blacked out in Israeli tv, news websites etc....for exactly the reason you stated....

I found these photos on a Turkish news site...

On a side note, if I've learned anything from this, I would say that I will definitely double if not triple check "charities" that I donate to..

halkar

Irlandese wrote: »

...The guy has his leg holster and light shoes but lacks his flack jacket and helmet with night vision goggles and comm pack. He had a paint-ball "toy" gun and probably a kit belt, but that is probably it. If a fully kitted up squad had come in, intent on force, the kit and the story would have been a lot different, although totally wrong, of course...

From testimonies of gaza flotilla survivors :

..First came the special forces of silent boats. Then the defenders of our boat used fire hoses and made it impossible for the Israelis to come on board. Some soldiers were captured. An Uzi and a pistol were seized, emptied of ammunition and were thrown into the sea ..

..I watched them pull in a couple of Israeli commandos, I guess, and strip them of their weapons and then pack them down the stairs..

There are other testimonies stating that activists captured 3 soldiers. These were taking to below decks and treated along with the other injured.

gandalf

Eibhin70 wrote: »

Their faces are blacked out in Israeli tv, news websites etc....for exactly the reason you stated....

I found these photos on a Turkish news site...

Yes but given the IDF seized all the pictures then they had to originate from them. Given Israeli sites are showing them I would guess that they have come from the IDF.

If that is the case then that is reprehensible. It means that they aren't even beyond damaging the security of their own elite troops to try and gain in the propaganda stakes.