Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

alastair

mossyc123 wrote: »

They must be fed-up of missiles raining down on them, hence they shut the borders and try control the capabilities of Hamas in this regard. An eminently understandable position to take don't you think?

I'm sure they are.
Shutting the borders and stopping weapons getting through is perfectly understandable as long as rockets are fired against them, but blockading aid and any capacity for economic development is not, nor is denying Gazans access to hospital treatment or clean water on the back of their restrictions.

Dar

mossyc123 wrote: »

They must be fed-up of missiles raining down on them, hence they shut the borders and try control the capabilities of Hamas in this regard. An eminently understandable position to take don't you think?

If that was all that they were doing that would indeed be an understandable and defensible position. However, I'm unaware of any evidence which would indicate that Hamas have developed the capability to build surface-to-surface missiles out of the chickpeas, fruit, A4 size paper and chocolate.

mossyc123

alastair wrote: »

Patent rubbish. As Wes has pointed out - the Arab League signed up for the Saudi peace plan which simply requires Israel to revert to green line borders - ie: Israeli borders. Iran isn't an arab nation. The fantasy that Israel is surrounded by neighbours plotting away at a new holocaust is just that - a fantasy. Maybe you don't care for the arab states, but at least acknowledge their stated position regarding Israel. Even Hamas have stated that a green line retreat would end their armed campaign - leaving their charter about as meaningful as Likud's.

I'm aware that Iran isn't an Arab nation, thank you for the correction.
So Israel moves back to the Green Line, then everything's OK yeah. They are no longer the focal point of anger in the Middle East and throughout the Muslim world...that would be nice.

alastair

mossyc123 wrote: »

I'm aware that Iran isn't an Arab nation, thank you for the correction.
So Israel moves back to the Green Line, then everything's OK yeah. They are no longer the focal point of anger in the Middle East and throughout the Muslim world...that would be nice.

Grand so - we can move on from the 'they want Israel wiped off the map' misinformation and deal with the political realities.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The first ship was attacked during darkness in international waters, the people on board were defending themselves. You may claim foolishly defending but there is no comaprison to what happened yesterday.

Nail and head with the foolishly defending it.
It's unlikely there would have been a shot if they just sat down.

blueplanet wrote:

Israel have a right to board a ship when it's in their waters, they don't if it isn't.

The point I'm making is the activists on the first boat could have sat down like was done on the irish boat and no drama.
I believe some didn't want that.They may not have expected to be shot at but they were fully prepared for some nice copy world wide with some bloodied faces.
Thanks to an IDF botch up,they got substantially more than that.
The IDF should have just sealed their route.
But then when have they ever taken the easy option.

Mind you I'm not sure it would have been easy either as,they might have had to shoot at the boats who may not have stopped and then we'd have had a sinking.

Noreen1

mossyc123 wrote: »

Ok, fair point. Survival is a bit of a stretch and they've been relatively safe in this regard since '73...but there way of life, the freedom to exist in peace has constantly been compromised by there neighbours. They must be fed-up of missiles raining down on them, hence they shut the borders and try control the capabilities of Hamas in this regard. An eminently understandable position to take don't you think?

I think their neighbours have yet to deny them medical aid, foodstuffs, a decent sewage system, etc.

Why is it so difficult to understand that supporting basic Human Rights for the Palestinian people does not equate to denying the Israeli right to seek to protect itself from attack, from whatever source?

Don't you think that Palestinians are equally "fed-up"? That they also have a right to their way of life, and the freedom to exist in peace?
Or are you suggesting that the Gazans are only entitled to Basic Human Rights if the Israeli government says so?

Noreen

Dar

mossyc123 wrote: »

I'm aware that Iran isn't an Arab nation, thank you for the correction.
So Israel moves back to the Green Line, then everything's OK yeah. They are no longer the focal point of anger in the Middle East and throughout the Muslim world...that would be nice.

The good friday agreement was signed 12 years ago, but you still have scumbags who think it's acceptable to gun down unarmed, off-duty soldiers collecting a box of pizza. To think that any agreement will immediately end all violence is unrealistic - there are two many extremist hotheads on both sides. But the process has to start somewhere.

halkar

Deleted User wrote: »

Nail and head with the foolishly defending it.
It's unlikely there would have been a shot if they just sat down.The point I'm making is the activists on the first boat could have sat down like was done on the irish boat and no drama.
I believe some didn't want that.They may not have expected to be shot at but they were fully prepared for some nice copy world wide with some bloodied faces.
Thanks to an IDF botch up,they got substantially more than that.
The IDF should have just sealed their route.
But then when have they ever taken the easy option.

Mind you I'm not sure it would have been easy either as,they might have had to shoot at the boats who may not have stopped and then we'd have had a sinking.

I have posted below somewhere in this thread answer to similar debate:

Turks are very proud and nationalistic people and they will defend their country to dead like many other nationalist would do. I do not believe any passenger on that ship were terrorists as Israeli PR trying to make them out to be. As soon as IDF start coming down their fight was not only for Palestinians or Gaza blockage but also for their country as the ship they were on was piece of their country and their land. The public outcry in Turkey is enormous as many consider this as attack to Turkey itself.

There is no deference between IDF crossing the Turkish border on foot or landing on a Turkish ship in international waters.

BlaasForRafa

halkar wrote: »

I have posted below somewhere in this thread answer to similar debate:


There is no deference between IDF crossing the Turkish border on foot or landing on a Turkish ship in international waters.

The Marmara is not a turkish ship, it is registered in the comoros.

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

It's unlikely there would have been a shot if they just sat down.

Wow. There's a high level of confidence in restraint from the IDF! :rolleyes:

Nope if they hadn't tried to stop the illegal invasion of their ship in the dead of night, they probably wouldn't have been shot dead. Just the odd bit of electric shock treatment, rubber bullets, broken noses, cuts and bruises etc. Hard to see why anyone would have resorted to legitimate self defence all in all. I can see how you'd apportion blame for the death of nine people there alright.

mossyc123

alastair wrote: »

Grand so - we can move on from the 'they want Israel wiped off the map' misinformation and deal with the political realities.

Well, they actually probably do still want Israel wiped off the map. It's not gonna happen only because Israel haven't let it happen.

speedboatchase

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You are looking at too much Israeli propaganda, :rolleyes:

No he isnt.

These are not "peaceful" people http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

The folks on the Mavi Marmara were absolutely extremists spoiling for a fight and came prepared to do so. I'm glad the Rachel Corrie passengers were able to make their political point without recklessly endangering their lives

karma_

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The Marmara is not a turkish ship, it is registered in the comoros.

You were already corrected when you told us that the Rachel Corrie was not an 'Irish' ship as it was registered in Cambodia, now you just repeat the same old misconception?

This ship may be registered in teh Comoros but is is still a Turkish ship.

Dar

speedboatchase wrote: »

No he isnt.

These are not "peaceful" people http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

The folks on the Mavi Marmara were absolutely extremists spoiling for a fight and came prepared to do so.

And yet not a single Israeli soldier was killed despite the fact that they were dragged below decks and surrounded by blood-thirsty Jihadist martyrs wielding knives.

prinz

Dar wrote: »

And yet not a single Israeli soldier was killed despite the fact that they were dragged below decks and surrounded by blood-thirsty Jihadist martyrs wielding knives.

They are worth more alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit

halkar

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The Marmara is not a turkish ship, it is registered in the comoros.

Flag_of_convenience

You will find hundreds of Turkish ships from above and many hundreds for other countries worldwide. How often do you travel by sea and know where the ship you are on registered?

speedboatchase

Dar wrote: »

And yet not a single Israeli soldier was killed despite the fact that they were dragged below decks and surrounded by blood-thirsty Jihadist martyrs wielding knives.

They were using the soldiers as leverage, that's why they didn't kill them. And they did have knives

Dar

prinz wrote: »

They are worth more alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit

Ah, so the plan of these murderous Islamic extremists was to lure armed Israeli commandos onto their ship so that they could be beaten down with pipes, and then used as hostages.

halkar

speedboatchase wrote: »

These are not "peaceful" people http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

Just a quick quote on one of the pictures from above if anyone wondering what the onions sack doing in these pics. They are part of the ships armoury. They were used for attacking the helicopters. Weapons of mass destruction.

speedboatchase

halkar wrote: »

Just a quick quote on one of the pictures from above if anyone wondering what the onions sack doing in these pics. They are part of the ships armoury. They were used for attacking the helicopters. Weapons of mass destruction.

You think the commando was bloodied and beaten by a sack of onions do you?

prinz

Dar wrote: »

Ah, so the plan of these murderous Islamic extremists was to lure armed Israeli commandos onto their ship so that they could be beaten down with pipes, and then used as hostages.

:rolleyes: You go down that route if you want. Just goes to show that discussion with some is pointless.

speedboatchase

Dar wrote: »

Ah, so the plan of these murderous Islamic extremists was to lure armed Israeli commandos onto their ship so that they could be beaten down with pipes, and then used as hostages.

Pretty much - I never said they were smart. I also never said they were "murderous Islamic" extremists, straw man. They're absolute idiots for getting a bullet in the head, especially when you look at how the dignified way passengers on the Rachel Corrie handled themselves

halkar

speedboatchase wrote: »

You think the commando was bloodied and beaten by a sack of onions do you?

No, but I do think they had more of a chance to be shot with Idf bullets flying indiscriminately on the upper decks than the mob that taking them to lower decks. I do not beleive so called mob had any intentions of keeping the captured soldiers and use against Idf or Israel.

speedboatchase

halkar wrote: »

No, but I do think they had more of a chance to be shot with Idf bullets flying indiscriminately on the upper decks than the mob that taking them to lower decks. I do not beleive so called mob had any intentions of keeping the captured soldiers and use against Idf or Israel.

If that was the case they would've beaten the commando and thrown him overboard, which they did with another. They chained the commando in the pics in the lower decks and had a human shield of over 20 people to get to him, sounds like they using him as leverage to me

karma_

speedboatchase wrote: »

If that was the case they would've beaten the commando and thrown him overboard, which they did with another. They chained the commando in the pics in the lower decks and had a human shield of over 20 people to get to him, sounds like they using him as leverage to me

Sounds like, they could have, maybe they were...

All pure speculation, the stone cold hard fact remains they did not kill anyone while the IDF killed 9.

Now, where will teh goal posts move to for the next round?

Fuhrer

speedboatchase wrote: »

They were using the soldiers as leverage, that's why they didn't kill them. And they did have knives

Aye, leverage to get medics to treat their friends that had just been gunned down.

halkar

speedboatchase wrote: »

If that was the case they would've beaten the commando and thrown him overboard, which they did with another. They chained the commando in the pics in the lower decks and had a human shield of over 20 people to get to him, sounds like they using him as leverage to me

Below is from gaza flotilla survivors blog

Yesterday, the Israeli navy claimed three commandos had been dragged unconscious into one of the ship's halls ''for several minutes'' before regaining consciousness and escaping. It was not clear whether any of them were among three commandos who the activists on board the Mavi Marmara have said were beaten, then sheltered and given medical treatment

There are many testimonials about the commandos being treated along with other injured. Israelis have all the cameras, phones, laptops that were on the ship. They must be busy with photoshop editing to suit their needs.

halkar

halkar wrote: »

They must be busy with photoshop editing to suit their needs.

If I said stuff like that to back up my assertions,then everything I say would be or must must be true[in my own mind..]
It's lame and no use.

Dar

speedboatchase wrote: »

Pretty much - I never said they were smart. I also never said they were "murderous Islamic" extremists, straw man. They're absolute idiots for getting a bullet in the head, especially when you look at how the dignified way passengers on the Rachel Corrie handled themselves

Hyperbole, not a straw man :P.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

If I said stuff like that to back up my assertions,then everything I say would be or must must be true[in my own mind..]
It's lame and no use.

What might they be doing with all the raw footage that they stole? The evidence thus far shows that the Israelis are editing the footage before they show anything.

Remove 'photoshop' and they are doing exactly as halkar states