Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

droidus

There's also the startling contrast between the activists apparent willingness to offer prompt medical treatment to Israeli soldiers and witness testimony that the IDF denied medical treatment to wounded activists for hours, resulting in the deaths of three people.

This won't of course be a surprise to those who are familiar to the IDF's behaviour at checkpoints where they regularly deny or refuse access to medical treatment to pregnant, ill or wounded Palestinians, frequently resulting in deaths - of stillbirth of full term Palestinian babies (35 since 2000) and critically ill patients in ambulances refused access to hospital treatment (112 since 2000).

gandalf

Scofflaw wrote: »

One of the other disturbing things about that picture is this comment on the captured IDF commandos:

According to a report from Al-Jessira (quoted here in Ynet), the third soldier didn’t escape; IDF commandos broke into the room he was held in and shot the passengers surrounding him.

That raises the disturbing possibility that some of those who were shot were doing the sort of thing shown in the picture. Of course, that's purely speculative.

cordially,
Scofflaw

That person with the tissue does like a bit like Ibrahim Bilgen, it would be interesting to see if that person survived the assault or if he was one of the people gunned down.

alastair

I don't believe that any IDF were shot during the boarding - despite claims on some US right-wing sites. What the Israeli foreign ministry did say was this:

The violent activists took these pistols from IDF forces and apparently opened fire on the soldiers as evident by the empty pistol magazines.

Now, the activists said they emptied out the pistol magazines to ensure they couldn't be used, so there's no argument that they were empty. But if the only evidence that they 'apparently opened fire' was empty magazines, and not shot soldiers, I reckon it's safe to assume that the Israelis are not claiming their soldiers were shot by the activists.

caseyann

I dont know if anyone saw this yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeUhwELoKWo&feature=player_embedded#!

After seeing passengers shot at close range they tried to grab the weapons to stop the killing. Kenneth Nichols O'Keefe was later beaten by the Israelis.

A US war veteran said yesterday he confronted Israeli commandos when they raided a Gaza-bound aid ship which he had boarded as a peace activist, Anatolia news agency reported.
Kenneth Nichols O'Keefe, his face bruised and still stained with blood, flew to Istanbul from Tel Aviv, on his way to Ireland, the report said.
"We overpowered three Israeli commandos. They looked at us... They thought we would kill them, but we let them go," O'Keefe said, adding he took the weapon of one of the soldiers and emptied it, according to Anatolia.
The ex-marine said he saw five people being killed on board the Mavi Marmara.

Winty

A Donegal man who was travelling on the peace flotilla to Gaza has described the Israeli attack on the convoy as "Bloody Sunday on the high seas."

This is utter Hypocricy.

This guy is quick to jump on a ship to travel the world but members of the Irish Travellers, a minority community indigenous to Ireland suffer abuse daily.

Irish people are quick to judge Isreal but how many Irish Travellers have been stoped from drinking in a bar or eating dinner in a resturant.



http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Flotilla-attack-39Bloody-Sunday-on.6345969.jp

alastair

Winty wrote: »

Irish people are quick to judge Isreal but how many Irish Travellers have been stoped from drinking in a bar or eating dinner in a resturant.

You're right - It's just the same thing. My eyes are opened! :rolleyes:

Macha

Winty wrote: »

This guy is quick to jump on a ship to travel the world but members of the Irish Travellers, a minority community indigenous to Ireland suffer abuse daily.

Irish people are quick to judge Isreal but how many Irish Travellers have been stoped from drinking in a bar or eating dinner in a resturant.

Point 1) Comparing a member of the Travelling community being refused a drink in a bar to the systematic and collective punishment going on in Gaza is silly.

Point 2) The existences of injustice in one place do not negate the validity of injustices in another. Nor do you get to decide who fights what battles. Mr O'Luain can get involved with whatever rights campaign he wants to, Tibet, West Papua, whatever.

caseyann

Winty wrote: »

A Donegal man who was travelling on the peace flotilla to Gaza has described the Israeli attack on the convoy as "Bloody Sunday on the high seas."

This is utter Hypocricy.

This guy is quick to jump on a ship to travel the world but members of the Irish Travellers, a minority community indigenous to Ireland suffer abuse daily.

Irish people are quick to judge Isreal but how many Irish Travellers have been stoped from drinking in a bar or eating dinner in a resturant.



http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Flotilla-attack-39Bloody-Sunday-on.6345969.jp

Winty how is that the same? They aren't murdered how ever much agree shouldn't be stopped from doing every day things in Ireland.
And seen as you don't know that mans stance on the equal rights of travelers and in the community you can not assume he doesn't feel the same way.

Noreen1

Winty wrote: »

A Donegal man who was travelling on the peace flotilla to Gaza has described the Israeli attack on the convoy as "Bloody Sunday on the high seas."

This is utter Hypocricy.

This guy is quick to jump on a ship to travel the world but members of the Irish Travellers, a minority community indigenous to Ireland suffer abuse daily.

Irish people are quick to judge Isreal but how many Irish Travellers have been stoped from drinking in a bar or eating dinner in a resturant.



http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Flotilla-attack-39Bloody-Sunday-on.6345969.jp

Eh, any harm in inquiring what Travellers have to do with the topic being discussed?

Is that seriously the best you can do to try to discredit a witness - who wasn't even aboard the Mavi Marmara, and, as such, has not been accused of violence even by the Israelis!!

Noreen

Scofflaw

Winty wrote: »

A Donegal man who was travelling on the peace flotilla to Gaza has described the Israeli attack on the convoy as "Bloody Sunday on the high seas."

This is utter Hypocricy.

This guy is quick to jump on a ship to travel the world but members of the Irish Travellers, a minority community indigenous to Ireland suffer abuse daily.

Irish people are quick to judge Isreal but how many Irish Travellers have been stoped from drinking in a bar or eating dinner in a resturant.

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Flotilla-attack-39Bloody-Sunday-on.6345969.jp

Winty, you're just back from a ban for trolling on Israel-related threads, and your first action is to try and derail an Israel-related thread with what has recently become the standard gambit of "look over there!". Not a good start.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Byron85

'Witch-hunt' of flotilla MP
An Arab Israeli member of parliament accused colleagues of conducting a "witch-hunt" before a panel voted to strip her of parliamentary privileges for taking part in the flotilla aimed at breaching Israel's sea blockade of Gaza.
The Knesset's House Committee voted seven to one in favour of stripping Haneen Zuabi, a member of the opposition Balad party, of parliamentary privileges including the right to a diplomatic passport and legal financial support.
The move, which must be approved by the Knesset, is likely to erode further already fragile relations with Israel's Arab community who took Israeli citizenship in 1948. Right-wing politicians have used the flotilla incident to renew their attack on Arab politicians perceived as disloyal to the Jewish State.
Ms Zuabi, 41, joined hundreds of protesters aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of six vessels loaded with humanitarian aid that tried to breach the Israeli-led blockade of Gaza last week. In a botched assault of the ship, Israeli commandos killed nine of the activists and drew global condemnation.
Ms Zuabi's participation in the protest drew intense anger in Israel. She was pushed, poked and jostled by colleagues in the Knesset last week and a Facebook page calling for her execution soon attracted thousands of followers. Interior Minister Eli Yishai has called on the Attorney General to strip Ms Zuabi of her Israeli citizenship.


Before the vote, Yariv Levin, a member of the right-wing Likud Party and chairman of the House Committee, said that Ms Zuabi had betrayed Israel.

Do as I say and not as I do syndrome? The above is a rather disgusting development no matter what way you dress it up.

Run_to_da_hills

Autopsy shows Israel executed the wounded, worse than those that were slaughtered at the Munich Olympics of 1972.

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/06/06/autopsy-shows-israel-executed-wounded-worse-than-munich-1972/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SabbahsBlog+%28Sabbah+Report%29

gandalf

Winty wrote: »

If I have gone over board I am sorry.

In Donegal the local press is full of how we should support the people in Gaza, but a wedding was stopped at the last minute a few weeks ago in a large hotel in Donegal Town because they were Travellers. No body in the local press stood up for the bride and groom

Please remove my post If i cause any offence.

Sorry

Winty

TBH I actually think the comparison with Bloody Sunday is an apt one. It and the operation last week are examples where using combat troops in what extensively were policing situations that backfired dramatically.

We know the effects of bloody Sunday and the escalation in violence that followed in Northern Ireland. We can only hope that the same doesn't happen in the Middle East now and some calm minds and voices can bring an awful lot of people back from the brink.

caseyann

Open an thread on it in humanities perhaps?



And on topic,the five Irish who returned home are due to give a press conference today?

sceptre

More completely off-topic discussion deleted. Individual reminders issued as deemed appropriate.

/mod

Scofflaw

Winty wrote: »

Thats a fair point

I was not talking about the army, but the general high ground people have been speaking from on this thread.

Bad Israel and the Poor of Gaza, yes the people of Gaza suffer but should we not look at own house first.

Travellers are widely acknowledged as one of the most marginalised and disadvantaged groups in Irish society. Travellers fare poorly on every indicator used to measure disadvantage: unemployment, poverty, social exclusion, health status, infant mortality, life expectancy, illiteracy, education and training levels, access to decision making and political representation, gender equality, access to credit, accommodation and living conditions.

Is the way Israel treats the people of Gaza a million miles away from the way we treat Travellers?

I hope this does not go to far off topic

Again, when there is a state-sanctioned policy of repression against Travellers, you have a similarity. Otherwise, you're trying to draw a parallel between individual, if common, discrimination and state-sponsored oppression.

Further, while pointing out that we are not without sins ourselves is a good reminder that a tone of moral indignation may be misplaced for some, it has no relevance whatsoever in pointing out crimes. A drunk driver may accuse a murderer of murder, and the driver's crimes are irrelevant to whether murder has been done.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gandalf

Israel have named Ken O'Keefe as one of the 5 people they suspect of having terrorist ties.

A former US Marine is at the centre of Israel’s response to the outrage caused by its raid on a Gaza-bound aid boat after it listed him as one of five people on board with terrorist links.

Ken O’Keefe, 40, who lives in London, told The Times that he had met Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader, and said that he supported the organisation’s “right to violent resistance”.

He also said that he had helped to subdue two Israeli commandos after leaders of the Turkish Islamic IHH charity enacted a plan to defend the boat.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7145681.ece

He's an interesting character but again that article doesn't mention that the activists on the boat felt they were justified in their action as the boat was in International Waters. From what is quoted from O'Keefe they were looking to arrest the assaulting troops. Not exactly the cleverist of actions given the IDF's history.

jameseagle

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/96876

Very hard to tell who was right or wrong. Clearly things got out of hand but maybe not as clear cut as some would like. I guess we will never know the truth and people will always belive what suits their ideology , look at the difference from Indy Media to Fox News comments

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/05/decide-does-israel-right-board-ships-suspected-aiding-terror/#content

Me I don't think the world is black or white

BlaasForRafa

gandalf wrote: »

Israel have named Ken O'Keefe as one of the 5 people they suspect of having terrorist ties.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7145681.ece

He's an interesting character but again that article doesn't mention that the activists on the boat felt they were justified in their action as the boat was in International Waters. From what is quoted from O'Keefe they were looking to arrest the assaulting troops. Not exactly the cleverist of actions given the IDF's history.

The guy sounds like a nutjob

Mr O’Keefe said that he had spent 20 days in an Israeli prison in 2004 after trying to cross from an Israeli settlement in Gaza into Palestinian territory. During this time he admitted in interrogation to meeting the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades and other Palestinian groups that Israel would regard as terrorists while trying to broker his own peace initiative. He denied helping to train terrorists.

An ex-marine nobody trying to do a one-man peace initiative? crazy.

This just corroborates what the IDF have said all along and puts the lie to those who said that there was no pre-planned organized attacks on troops organized by some of the activists.

BlaasForRafa

gandalf wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Interesting photo linked on that site. It appears that a protester is assaulting this Israeli commando with a tissue paper.

Funny that wasn't shown on the video of Sophisticated Weapons by the IDF?

Facetious posts like that do nothing for the debate. Its obviously one of the activists treating one of the IDF soldiers who had been assaulted by the mob on the deck above.

Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The guy sounds like a nutjob


An ex-marine nobody trying to do a one-man peace initiative? crazy.

This just corroborates what the IDF have said all along and puts the lie to those who said that there was no pre-planned organized attacks on troops organized by some of the activists.

Actually, to get to that point you'd rather need evidence that there had been a pre-planned organised attack, rather than just pointing to one person on board and saying"well, he's the sort of person who might well do that sort of thing (according to Israel)!".

The you'd need to explain how they planned on attacking the helicopters or navy vessels with metal poles.

Quite a bit of ground to cover there, really, as well as some air or water.

amused,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

jameseagle wrote: »

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/96876

Very hard to tell who was right or wrong. Clearly things got out of hand but maybe not as clear cut as some would like. I guess we will never know the truth and people will always belive what suits their ideology , look at the difference from Indy Media to Fox News comments

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/05/decide-does-israel-right-board-ships-suspected-aiding-terror/#content

Me I don't think the world is black or white

A marvellous position when it come to, say, art, or politics, but not entirely appropriate when it comes to law.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Archie D Bunker

Seems Hamas is enforcing the Gaza blockade for Israel - "Hamas refuses to allow the Flotilla aid to go into Gaza."

Can I assume that the next demonstration in Dublin will be against Hamas so they allow the starving people of Gaza to get that so much needed humanitarian aid?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgazahamasaid

gandalf

jameseagle wrote: »

Me I don't think the world is black or white

That is the problem. Its this whole attitude of "you are either with us are against us" that seems to have permeated from the whole Neo-Con mentality. As some of the more eloquent Israeli or Israel biased commentators have indicated on this thread that people with more extremist orthodox views are now in the ascendency in Political and Military spheres in Israel mirroring those with extreme views in Hamas in the Gaza strip.

And at the end of the day who are the people who actually pay for these extremists ordinary Gazan residents and Israeli residents.

The amount of sites that you can have a discussion about this whole situation without being called one name or the other or being abused in the most foul fashion possible is very few and far between. After a comment about that foul "comedy" video endorsed by the IDF I have people messaging me with death threats and unflattering comments about my mother and linage on another social networking site.

BlaasForRafa

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually, to get to that point you'd rather need evidence that there had been a pre-planned organised attack, rather than just pointing to one person on board and saying"well, he's the sort of person who might well do that sort of thing (according to Israel)!".

The you'd need to explain how they planned on attacking the helicopters or navy vessels with metal poles.

Quite a bit of ground to cover there, really, as well as some air or water.

amused,
Scofflaw

Are you being purposely obtuse or something? Footage was already shown on Newsnight on BBC2 last week of activists waiting in a stairwell just below deck with gasmasks and weapons ready for the boarding.

And where did I say that the "activists" were going to attack the helicopters or boats? They were obviously prepared for the Israelis to board the ship.

gandalf

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Facetious posts like that do nothing for the debate. Its obviously one of the activists treating one of the IDF soldiers who had been assaulted by the mob on the deck above.

But it does prove that far from "lynching" the troops the protesters after the initial violence were administering first aid to the commandos.

BluePlanet

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Are you being purposely obtuse or something? Footage was already shown on Newsnight on BBC2 last week of activists waiting in a stairwell just below deck with gasmasks and weapons ready for the boarding.

And where did I say that the "activists" were going to attack the helicopters or boats? They were obviously prepared for the Israelis to board the ship.

So in your view, the crews of the ships have no right to try and repel the boarders even though they are deep into international waters?

droidus

Activists: Israeli boat raiders had ‘assassination list’

Passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara, the ship raided by Israel Monday, claim they found what they say is a list of people the Israeli military intended to target during their raid, a news report out of Great Britain states.

In an interview with the UK's Independent on Sunday, Al Jazeera reporter Jamal Elshayyal said passengers who rummaged through Israeli solders' belongings during the raid found a list of names, accompanied with pictures, of people aboard the flotilla that aimed to break Israel's blockade of Gaza.

The Independent's Catrina Stewart reports:

[T]he protesters rummaged through captured soldiers' belongings and claimed to unearth a document that they allege is a list of people Israel intended to assassinate. The booklet, written in Hebrew and in English, contained some photographs of passengers on the Marmara, including the leader of IHH, the Turkish charity that provided two of the ships, an 88-year-old priest and Ra'ad Salah, head of the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel, Mr Elshayyal said.

...

Full story at:

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0605/israeli-raiders-assassination-list/

Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Are you being purposely obtuse or something? Footage was already shown on Newsnight on BBC2 last week of activists waiting in a stairwell just below deck with gasmasks and weapons ready for the boarding.

And where did I say that the "activists" were going to attack the helicopters or boats? They were obviously prepared for the Israelis to board the ship.

Yes - and that's something that can only happen once the Israelis are starting to assault the ship (or it is clear they are about to do so), as a reaction to that assault, unless you believe that those activists were waiting in the stairwell the whole time the flotilla was at sea.

And do you know what it's called when people react to an assault? It's called defence.

Now if you'd like me to believe that the activists - or some of the activists - had a contingency plan for defending the ship in the case of an Israeli assault, then you're pushing an open door. Where we part company is when you start defining "having a contingency plan for defence in case of assault" as "premeditated attack".

You, I, and the world all know that there was no plan to attack Israeli helicopters or naval vessels, or any hope of any such thing. What happened, happened entirely in response to the Israeli assault - to call it an "attack" is therefore ludicrously false. It's comedy sketch stuff along the lines of "he repeatedly struck my boot with his head in an aggressive manner, screaming and bleeding at me intimidatingly".

regards,
Scofflaw

Archie D Bunker

Scofflaw wrote: »

And do you know what it's called when people react to an assault? It's called defence.

Just what I said when I commented about the Last Israeli operation in Gaza - they reacted because Israel was assaulted by thousands of rockets.
Funny how everybody in the world are entitled to defend themselves using violence - except for Israel - they should just roll over and die when attacked...