Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Zulu

...save the bullets they were carrying...





...in their heads. :rolleyes:

He's not going to sue.
Theres too much form internationally for convicting terrorists by association.
Irelands laws are an obvious example of where informed opinion has had to be used.

The flotilla organizers would be better off putting up a less associated spokesperson.

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

There is a little misrepresentation here. MG Dayan is retired, and is not currently in a position of authority in the Israeli system. He was speaking his own opinion, not that of the Israeli government.

NTM

I'm very glad to hear it!

relieved,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

that last line is facetious. But then I guess the turks never do anything wrong and the kurds are a free and happy people who have never been repressed at all at all.

That's a very silly over-interpretation. Turkey aren't lily-white, and nothing I said implies that they are, but currently their track record for doing dumb and belligerent things is much much better than Israel's.

I'm sorry you're annoyed by the current attention being paid to Israel, but getting snippy with anyone who you take to be critical isn't a useful response.

regards,
Scofflaw

gandalf

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm very glad to hear it!

relieved,
Scofflaw

The bad news is that he is now a member of the Knesset (spl) so he is still very stupid for making such inflammatory comments.

gandalf

Another excellent article in Der Spiegel today on the claims made about the terror connections of the protesters.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,699509,00.html

Basically the IDF accusation that 5 people had terrorist connections "provides no evidence to back up its claims".

And the other documents cited against the IHH show at best that in 1990's some of their members may have had links with terrorism.

the_dark_side

if anyone tries defending Israels recent actions attacking the aid ship, throw this at them
http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

droidus

The always excellent Max Blumenthal has been essential wrt to the flotilla. Highly recommended:

http://maxblumenthal.com/

wes

droidus wrote: »

The always excellent Max Blumenthal has been essential wrt to the flotilla. Highly recommended:

http://maxblumenthal.com/

Just been reading some of the stuff on there, and the amount of IDF lies is pretty damn amazing. Just further enforces my complete distrust with anything that the IDF claims.

Run_to_da_hills

wes wrote: »

Just been reading some of the stuff on there, and the amount of IDF lies is pretty damn amazing. Just further enforces my complete distrust with anything that the IDF claims.

This is why I have serious doubts about any truth involving Israeli intelligence.

We had it at our own doorstep FFS.

Clawdeeus

Clawdeeus wrote: »

I never said the IDF should be trusted in everything they said, I said that trusting unconditionally everything the activists say is also ridiculous to.

I also never said they should both be looked at with the same degree of skepticism.

That does not mean Ill belive everything the activists say straight away either, for the obvious reason that they feel so strongly about the issue; of course they will be tempted to spin. They might not even be lying; I know that if I was shot at/ saw my friends shot I would have a very 1 dimensional view of a situation.

Some of the witness testimony can be discounted, because it makes no sense. For example that two people were shot before the boarding began. No military force is stupid enough to shoot two people, then rappel into their waiting (now furious) friends one at a time.

Its nothing to do with fairness, its to do with logic.

I dont think we will ever know what really happened, now that Israel has refused an International investigation. That does not mean one sides story at the moment HAS to be the correct one.

And what I would infer from the blackout is obvious; that the Israelis have something to hide. Again, that does not instantly lead to the veracity of all the activists claims.

The spin from either side of the debate in this thread is ongoing and I think you've the nail hit on the head there in your summary.

In the past few posts we have :
Something from 1967 and someones one sided blog.
The former is irrelevant and the latter is just a collection of ideas.
Anyone can create a dossier dressed up as a blog if they only want to build a case for one side.
Even the der Spiegel article I could have wrote myself,it tells me nothing new ie that Israeli inteligence is secretive and the IDF made a wholy unnecessary murderous botch of the boarding of the flotilla.

This thread is circling the wagons I feel.

Scofflaw

Deleted User wrote: »

The spin from either side of the debate in this thread is ongoing and I think you've the nail hit on the head there in your summary.

In the past few posts we have :
Something from 1967 and someones one sided blog.
The former is irrelevant and the latter is just a collection of ideas.
Anyone can create a dossier dressed up as a blog if they only want to build a case for one side.

They could, but it wouldn't make them a respected political journalist, which the blog's author is.

Deleted User wrote: »

Even the der Spiegel article I could have wrote myself,it tells me nothing new ie that Israeli inteligence is secretive and the IDF made a wholy unnecessary murderous botch of the boarding of the flotilla.

This thread is circling the wagons I feel.

It would obviously be better for Israel right now if attention passed off the incident - but would it be better for Israel in the long run? Probably not. If this incident has highlighted anything it is that Israel is not in a sustainable place these days - murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive, to allies as well as perceived enemies.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is circling the wagons I feel.

Given the ongoing accumulation of evidence undermining the Israeli spin on the affair, I can see how you'd like that to be the case alright.

My particular favourite from recent days is the photographic evidence (that escaped the IDF censor natch) of the 'lynch mob' providing first aid to the captured IDF soldier.

prinz

Scofflaw wrote: »

If this incident has highlighted anything it is that Israel is not in a sustainable place these days - murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive, to allies as well as perceived enemies.

Was it ever much different?

jank

prinz wrote: »

Was it ever much different?

Well yes actually, back when they had the moral majority but it seems Israel has backed itself into a corner that it doesn't know how to get itself out of.

gandalf

Deleted User wrote: »

In the past few posts we have :
Something from 1967 and someones one sided blog.
The former is irrelevant and the latter is just a collection of ideas.
Anyone can create a dossier dressed up as a blog if they only want to build a case for one side.
Even the der Spiegel article I could have wrote myself,it tells me nothing new ie that Israeli inteligence is secretive and the IDF made a wholy unnecessary murderous botch of the boarding of the flotilla.

This thread is circling the wagons I feel.

Ok the USS Liberty link is a red herring as for as the topic at hand is concerned but I would be very careful about describing it as irrelevant as I am sure that those involved would think otherwise.

That blog does come up with interesting points particularly about the information that has been released as proof by the IDF Spokemans office and the local newspapers acceptance of it without double checking it themselves. I think that particular picture and the daylight behind it was commented on earlier in this thread.

With regard to the Der Spiegel article it is a widely respected publication and I think their analysis is spot on and it sure beats it appearing in a blog now doesn't it. So again I disagree with you and your opinion on its relevance.

alastair

@ Gandalf,the der spiegel article is much like the bbc question and answer article linked to a few pages back.
Both are respectable sites but both are offering us summaries of what we already know.
Thats what I was saying about Der Spiegel.
Theres hardly much to disagree about in that statement.

alastair wrote:

Given the ongoing accumulation of evidence undermining the Israeli spin on the affair, I can see how you'd like that to be the case alright.

Ah now we're not going back to making a thread about me again.Please don't.All I'm saying is we are not being offered anything new.
I don't deny that Israel are spinning.But I'm sceptical of people with a definite view writing on one side only.
So please no more of this,he's not with us [on everything] so he must be against us approach thank you.

scofflaw wrote:

They could, but it wouldn't make them a respected political journalist, which the blog's author is.

I'd never heard of him to be honest untill now but I see his work is all pretty much left of centre and he's very fond of inquiring into Israel.
I respect that but I don't believe he's coming to the story opinionless which is my point.
Anyone [competant] can compile a dossier or a story editorialistically.
We see beligerant examples of it in right wing press too.
Neutral is my prefered option personally.
Mind you sometimes One is left to reading opposite angles and making up ones own mind.

the_dark_side

Deleted User wrote: »

The spin from either side of the debate in this thread is ongoing and I think you've the nail hit on the head there in your summary.

In the past few posts we have :
Something from 1967 and someones one sided blog.
The former is irrelevant and the latter is just a collection of ideas.
Anyone can create a dossier dressed up as a blog if they only want to build a case for one side.
Even the der Spiegel article I could have wrote myself,it tells me nothing new ie that Israeli inteligence is secretive and the IDF made a wholy unnecessary murderous botch of the boarding of the flotilla.

This thread is circling the wagons I feel.

ok... I may not have selected the best article detailing the attack on the USS Liberty by Israel, here are some better ones. Amazingly, one of the crew aboard the aid flotilla that was attacked last week, was also on board the USS Liberty when it was attacked by Israel in 1967 killing 34 US crew. His name is Joe Meadors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Meadors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

http://www.gtr5.com/

and a BBC documentary on the USS Liberty cover up here...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRZSzdQuOqM

My point is that Israel's heavy handed tactics have not changed one jot, since they attacked the USS Liberty in 1967. The attack on the aid flotilla is proof of this

Scofflaw

prinz wrote: »

If this incident has highlighted anything it is that Israel is not in a sustainable place these days - murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive, to allies as well as perceived enemies.

Was it ever much different?

That might be taken two ways - was Israel ever different, or was Israel ever perceived as different?

Certainly the perception that Israel is "murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive" is more widespread now - I wouldn't have shared it a decade ago, although you could see it in Israel itself, looking back (hindsight is great - at the time I thought it was just the Israelis I was meeting). There was, I think, more confidence in Israel's place in the world, and a belief that they were settling into the Middle East rather than settling it.

As to whether Israel was any different - I don't think the leadership ever was. The difference now is that the population seem to be worked up to a fever pitch of distrust in the outside world, and that the IDF seem to assuming far too much of a role in arbitrating Israel's relations with the outside world. I can't see it as a good thing that most of a country's external relations are mediated through a combination of armed force and PR, and do so with the support of a frightened and misled population.

Israel appears more and more to be a militarised society, and militarised societies tend to become politically unstable, particularly when they are also republics. Armies are not democratic.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe he's coming to the story opinionless which is my point.
Anyone [competant] can compile a dossier or a story editorialistically.
We see beligerant examples of it in right wing press too.
Neutral is my prefered option personally.

The fact that he's coming to the story with an opinion doesn't undermine the information that he presents. Unless he's abusing a bias by presenting misinformation or misrepresenting a situation, where's the problem?

droidus

Scofflaw wrote: »

That might be taken two ways - was Israel ever different, or was Israel ever perceived as different?

Certainly the perception that Israel is "murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive" is more widespread now - I wouldn't have shared it a decade ago, although you could see it in Israel itself, looking back (hindsight is great - at the time I thought it was just the Israelis I was meeting). There was, I think, more confidence in Israel's place in the world, and a belief that they were settling into the Middle East rather than settling it.

As to whether Israel was any different - I don't think the leadership ever was. The difference now is that the population seem to be worked up to a fever pitch of distrust in the outside world, and that the IDF seem to assuming far too much of a role in arbitrating Israel's relations with the outside world. I can't see it as a good thing that most of a country's external relations are mediated through a combination of armed force and PR, and do so with the support of a frightened and misled population.

Israel appears more and more to be a militarised society, and militarised societies tend to become politically unstable, particularly when they are also republics. Armies are not democratic.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Those points seem particularly pertinent with regard to the wave of propaganda that has accompanied this incident. The Hasbara campaign has been so sloppy and openly chauvinistic this time, its obviously not designed to convince Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Russians or Africans - its aimed at the only people who could really do anything about the situation - Americans and Israelis.

gandalf

Deleted User wrote: »

@ Gandalf,the der spiegel article is much like the bbc question and answer article linked to a few pages back.
Both are respectable sites but both are offering us summaries of what we already know.
Thats what I was saying about Der Spiegel.
Theres hardly much to disagree about in that statement.

Yes but when someone starts shouting that the BBC is a biased site and sometimes it can be now there is a second very eminent publication coming to a similar conclusion to the BBC one. Hence it is harder to dismiss the BBC one because they are not the only source giving this opinion.

Also given the absolute mountain of information being released and spun by all sides it is useful to have reputable publications to provide summaries of the state of play so to speak.

What I am finding extremely interesting is the unravelling of the whole IDF spin on the flotilla be it the operation, the participants, the reaction to the almost universal condemnation. That is what I am now finding useful here, to see the collapse of a very poorly constructed defence and wondering what the effect will be on future ME politics, what the effect will be on World Politics. How will his event change the structure of alliances and power within the whole region.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Yes but when someone starts shouting that the BBC is a biased site and sometimes it can be now there is a second very eminent publication coming to a similar conclusion to the BBC one. Hence it is harder to dismiss the BBC one because they are not the only source giving this opinion.

They're not coming to conclusions in those articles though,they are summarizing events in both.From an intellectual point of view though I do like reading something like Blumenthal's blog even if I can see the angle taken is investigative of one side or editorialistic.

Also given the absolute mountain of information being released and spun by all sides it is useful to have reputable publications to provide summaries of the state of play so to speak.

What I am finding extremely interesting is the unravelling of the whole IDF spin on the flotilla be it the operation, the participants, the reaction to the almost universal condemnation. That is what I am now finding useful here, to see the collapse of a very poorly constructed defence and wondering what the effect will be on future ME politics, what the effect will be on World Politics. How will this event change the structure of alliances and power within the whole region.

Because Israel have nukes,it will change nothing much unless boycots of israeli goods take hold.

As Mrs Thatcher once rightly said-"You can't uninvent nuclear weapons" meaning once a country has them,they are invincible...unpalatable as that may be.

BlaasForRafa

alastair wrote: »

Given the ongoing accumulation of evidence undermining the Israeli spin on the affair, I can see how you'd like that to be the case alright.

My particular favourite from recent days is the photographic evidence (that escaped the IDF censor natch) of the 'lynch mob' providing first aid to the captured IDF soldier.

The captured soldier who was in bits and covered in blood. Just because some of the activists provided aid dosen't mean there wasn't a mob out to get idf personnel.

Fuhrer

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The captured soldier who was in bits and covered in blood. Just because some of the activists provided aid dosen't mean there wasn't a mob out to get idf personnel.

Out to get them?


You mean they wanted to kill them?

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The captured soldier who was in bits and covered in blood. Just because some of the activists provided aid dosen't mean there wasn't a mob out to get idf personnel.

No doubt the 'lynch mob' were fought off by the guy with the hanky? They sure don't make mobs the way they used to.

caseyann

Innocent Israel,assassinated someone and tried to lay the blame on other nationalities and then attack an aid ship among what else have they done lately.
I am sorry they have no credibility in honesty as far as i can see.

Manic Moran

the_dark_side wrote: »

if anyone tries defending Israels recent actions attacking the aid ship, throw this at them
http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

I'm not sure I see the relevance.

I've mentioned the Liberty incident on Boards before. I'm of the belief that the Israelis knew who they were shooting at. I'm also of the belief that this happened over 40 years ago, during an entirely different war.

NTM

the_syco

gandalf wrote: »

Basically the IDF accusation that 5 people had terrorist connections "provides no evidence to back up its claims".

And the other documents cited against the IHH show at best that in 1990's some of their members may have had links with terrorism.

From: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/conflict-fears-as-iran-says-it-will-guard-gaza-flotillas-2211185.html

The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a once-powerful militant group that has largely broken up since renouncing violence some years ago, said the dead fighters were part of its Gaza-based marine unit. The movement insisted the men were on a training mission.

I'm unsure if the "fighters" part was mistranslated, as otherwise it bodes well for the IDF.

Said marine unit of the Brigade is seemingly busy these days.

In saying that, it seems some good has come out of this attack, with "calls for Israel to abandon its list of 35 items that can be imported to Gaza in favour of a list of outlawed items." This would be a good thing. Would make everyone who died a martyr in some peoples eyes, though, as their deaths helped achieve this.

gandalf

the_syco wrote: »

From: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/conflict-fears-as-iran-says-it-will-guard-gaza-flotillas-2211185.html

I'm unsure if the "fighters" part was mistranslated, as otherwise it bodes well for the IDF.

Said marine unit of the Brigade is seemingly busy these days.

Am that is actually about the same situation. Those guys weren't on the flotilla.