Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Fuhrer

the_syco wrote: »

From: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/conflict-fears-as-iran-says-it-will-guard-gaza-flotillas-2211185.html

I'm unsure if the "fighters" part was mistranslated, as otherwise it bodes well for the IDF.

Said marine unit of the Brigade is seemingly busy these days.

Those fighters were from a seperate incident.

droidus

Is it true that there are still six missing activists?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF09Ak01.html

And again - does anyone know if Caoimhe Butterly made it home?

gandalf

droidus wrote: »

Is it true that there are still six missing activists?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF09Ak01.html

And again - does anyone know if Caoimhe Butterly made it home?

Surely the six have names. The fact that I can see no evidence of them even being named means from my point of view that it is just rumour mongering.

Again I didn't even realise that Caoimhe Butterly was on the flotilla. The media here made no mention of her?

droidus

Yeah, she was on it AFAIK. The video released the day of the raid pretty much confirms it unless im missing something.

The lack of detail on possible missing activists could well be a result of hundreds of people who dont know each other very well being dispersed rapidly after the raid. Im not even sure if there was a master passenger list.

droidus

gandalf

droidus wrote: »

Yeah, she was on it AFAIK. The video released the day of the raid pretty much confirms it unless im missing something.

The lack of detail on possible missing activists could well be a result of hundreds of people who dont know each other very well being dispersed rapidly after the raid. Im not even sure if there was a master passenger list.

It mentions on Wikipedia that she was but I can't find reference anywhere else. Strange that.

As for the other missing surely after a week some names of people who haven't returned home would be surfacing?

alastair

gandalf wrote: »

It mentions on Wikipedia that she was but I can't find reference anywhere else. Strange that.

Twitter post 2 days ago reckons she's in Turkey and uninjured.

droidus

gandalf wrote: »

It mentions on Wikipedia that she was but I can't find reference anywhere else. Strange that.

As for the other missing surely after a week some names of people who haven't returned home would be surfacing?

Yeah, that's why I was starting to get a bit worried.

Thanks Alistair!

Run_to_da_hills

"Any investigation into Israel's raid of the Gaza aid flotilla should explore all the facts of the event, including who sponsored the Mavi Marmara and why there were weapons aboard the ship, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said at a Tel Aviv financial conference on Wednesday.

Netanyahu added that the Israeli commandos involved in the raid will face IDF investigators only and will not be subject to any outside probe".

I am sure all those on board would be delighted to participate in an international enquiry and show them all the kitchen utensils, cutlery, engine room tools etc.

Unfortunitally they will not be able to produce their own footage of themselves defending their boat in international waters as all of this has been destroyd by the IDF and replaced by doctored up images.

http://www.jpost.com/ArtsAndCulture/Entertainment/Article.aspx?id=177954

Scofflaw

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Any investigation into Israel's raid of the Gaza aid flotilla should explore all the facts of the event, including who sponsored the Mavi Marmara and why there were weapons aboard the ship, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said at a Tel Aviv financial conference on Wednesday.

Netanyahu added that the Israeli commandos involved in the raid will face IDF investigators only and will not be subject to any outside probe".

Apparently the IDF object strenuously to any soldiers being put in front of any non-IDF investigation under any circumstances, whether it's an Israeli investigation or not, something that Israel's government appears to be happy to oblige them in.

Some might say that that suggests an army essentially immune from civilian control - certainly I would be unhappy if the Irish Army or Gardai were only ever investigated by themselves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

the_syco

gandalf wrote: »

Am that is actually about the same situation. Those guys weren't on the flotilla.

Aye. Reread that. My bad

Manic Moran

droidus wrote: »

What's wrong with her neck? She spends 90% of that video listing to starboard.

NTM

Mr.Micro

Scofflaw wrote: »

Apparently the IDF object strenuously to any soldiers being put in front of any non-IDF investigation under any circumstances, whether it's an Israeli investigation or not, something that Israel's government appears to be happy to oblige them in.

Some might say that that suggests an army essentially immune from civilian control - certainly I would be unhappy if the Irish Army or Gardai were only ever investigated by themselves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

If the rule of law were applied to the IDF they would be wary of committing atrocities in the name of Israel but they know that they are allowed and expected to use extreme/fatal force knowing that the State of Israel will not condemn them in any way. Democracy and accountability Israeli style.

prinz

Scofflaw wrote: »

Certainly the perception that Israel is "murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive" is more widespread now - I wouldn't have shared it a decade ago....

That suprises me. it may be more widespread now but it was certainly prevalent and could easily be seen by anyone paying attention to Israeli history, particularly their willingness to engage in unorthodox 'policing' operations abroad.

Scofflaw wrote: »

As to whether Israel was any different - I don't think the leadership ever was. The difference now is that the population seem to be worked up to a fever pitch of distrust in the outside world, and that the IDF seem to assuming far too much of a role in arbitrating Israel's relations with the outside world.

I would agree and disagree. Many seem to be digging their heels in more and more. On the other hand Israel doesn't seem to get anything but bad press so there is where the IDF come into the picture. People from outside don't see anything else IMO. Israel will disappear from the headlines until the next controversial moment and the IDF will be to the forefront again. Very little of a positive outlook is ever represented.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Israel appears more and more to be a militarised society, and militarised societies tend to become politically unstable, particularly when they are also republics. Armies are not democratic.

Militarised by necessity.

Nodin

As a great deal of the militarys time seems to be spent in suppressing the Palestinian population of the occupied territories and protecting the colonists there, "nessecity" would not be how I'd describe it.

Offy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They may have been in international waters but their intention to break Israeli law was evident. It was better that Israel prevented the incident from happening in the first place rather then waiting untill they actually did break the law.

Thats a scary post. What if they did intend to break Israels law but changed their mind at the last minute? They were not given the chance to change their minds were they?

Macha

Offy wrote: »

Thats a scary post. What if they did intend to break Israels law but changed their mind at the last minute? They were not given the chance to change their minds were they?

We're into Minority Report territory.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

As a great deal of the militarys time seems to be spent in suppressing the Palestinian population of the occupied territories and protecting the colonists there, "nessecity" would not be how I'd describe it.

A militarised society goes beyond the actions of the military itself.

BlaasForRafa

Scofflaw wrote: »

Apparently the IDF object strenuously to any soldiers being put in front of any non-IDF investigation under any circumstances, whether it's an Israeli investigation or not, something that Israel's government appears to be happy to oblige them in.

Some might say that that suggests an army essentially immune from civilian control - certainly I would be unhappy if the Irish Army or Gardai were only ever investigated by themselves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

IDF operations have been subject to civilian judicial enquiries before like the Winograd commision into the 2006 conflict with Hezbollah. At the end of the day it will be the government who decides who does the enquiry, not the IDF.

Irlandese

the_dark_side wrote: »

if anyone tries defending Israels recent actions attacking the aid ship, throw this at them
http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

If you get access to the files and some details are already in the public domain, you will find that this strange "attack" was co-ordinated via the direct involvement of the President of the USA and that at least one participating Israeli jet bomber flyer initially refused to participate in the attack. The whole episode was a staged "black operation. It was meant as a covert action to sink a US ship and put the blame on Egypt, to provide a pretext for a massive USA attack on Egypt to give USA/Israel control over a large swathe of the ME.
Sounds like an April Fool, until you read about the fabrication of alleged attacks by North Vietnam on US warships that President Johnson used as false justification to bomb Hanoi and start a war thast cost millions of innocent civilians their lives;
http://www.orwelltoday.com/vietnampretext.shtml

karma_

Manic Moran wrote: »

What's wrong with her neck? She spends 90% of that video listing to starboard.

NTM

Maybe it's a residual effect of being shot by the IDF?

Besides, what has that got to do with what she said?

Iwasfrozen

Offy wrote: »

Thats a scary post. What if they did intend to break Israels law but changed their mind at the last minute? They were not given the chance to change their minds were they?

Well then they wouldn't have attacked commandos with metal bars and axes, would they?

RealityCheck

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well then they wouldn't have attacked commandos with metal bars and axes, would they?

Imagine that, taking on the might of the Israeli Defence Forces with metal bars and axes :eek:.

Offy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well then they wouldn't have attacked commandos with metal bars and axes, would they?

If I was been attacked I would defend myself. If a group of people try to board a ship in international waters without permission they are known as pirates. People often defend themselves from pirates, its not unheard of.

Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

IDF operations have been subject to civilian judicial enquiries before like the Winograd commision into the 2006 conflict with Hezbollah. At the end of the day it will be the government who decides who does the enquiry, not the IDF.

That's what I said:

Apparently the IDF object strenuously to any soldiers being put in front of any non-IDF investigation under any circumstances, whether it's an Israeli investigation or not, something that Israel's government appears to be happy to oblige them in.

They may not always be happy to oblige them, but it appears to be the general case that they are.

regards,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

prinz wrote: »

Certainly the perception that Israel is "murderous, arrogant, paranoid, and aggressive" is more widespread now - I wouldn't have shared it a decade ago....

That suprises me. it may be more widespread now but it was certainly prevalent and could easily be seen by anyone paying attention to Israeli history, particularly their willingness to engage in unorthodox 'policing' operations abroad.

The important bit there is "paying attention to Israeli history". I'm probably underestimating when I say a decade - let's say 15 years. At that time, if I'd wanted to research Israel's history, I would have needed to go and sit in a decent library for a while reading up on it, and I hadn't.

prinz wrote: »

As to whether Israel was any different - I don't think the leadership ever was. The difference now is that the population seem to be worked up to a fever pitch of distrust in the outside world, and that the IDF seem to assuming far too much of a role in arbitrating Israel's relations with the outside world.

I would agree and disagree. Many seem to be digging their heels in more and more. On the other hand Israel doesn't seem to get anything but bad press so there is where the IDF come into the picture. People from outside don't see anything else IMO. Israel will disappear from the headlines until the next controversial moment and the IDF will be to the forefront again. Very little of a positive outlook is ever represented.

Israel gets a fair bit of good press in an incidental way - particularly if one is interested in technology. It's true that when they appear in the mainstream media's foreign affairs section, it's usually for something like a war or targeted assassinations with Israel as the villain, or as the victim of rocket attacks from Gaza.

prinz wrote: »

Israel appears more and more to be a militarised society, and militarised societies tend to become politically unstable, particularly when they are also republics. Armies are not democratic.

Militarised by necessity.

I'm not really convinced of that. Israel has agreements with pretty much all its neighbours, whom in any case it is much stronger than. The destabilising irritant comes from within, from the remaining Palestinian enclaves. As several people have pointed out, however you look at it the Palestinian areas just keep shrinking and shrinking - the rockets and other acts of terrorism seem more than anything else to be the product of that squeezing process. Newton's Law seems to apply there, loosely at least - Israeli actions are generating an unequal but opposite reaction. It's hard not to assume that we're looking at a process that doesn't end until there are no more Palestinian enclaves in the area Israel considers its territory, and until that time Israeli society must remain militarised because it means to keep the pressure on, and therefore can expect to generate a reactive force.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

Trocaire seems to be offering an alternative route towards keeping the pressure on the Israeli state with regard to the illegal blockade:

'It's time for Ireland to tell Israel 'enough is enough' says Trocaire director speaking from Gaza
'The Irish government needs to tell Israel that its three year blockade on Gaza must end now' according to Justin Kilcullen, director of Trocaire.

Speaking from Gaza city today Mr Kilcullen has also called on the EU to suspend the preferential trade agreements enjoyed by Israel within the EU until the blockade on Gaza is lifted.

'The daily suffering that has been imposed by Israel's relentless blockade on the Gaza strip is hidden from the world’ according to Mr Kilcullen. 'The simple fact in Gaza is that ordinary people don't have enough food, enough medicine, enough electricity or enough materials to rebuild their homes. Innocent families are living in abject poverty, which has been imposed on them by Israel's blockade'.

http://www.trocaire.org/resources/news/2010/06/09/its-time-ireland-tell-israel-enough-enough

Well done Justin Kilcullen!

BlaasForRafa

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's what I said:



They may not always be happy to oblige them, but it appears to be the general case that they are.

regards,
Scofflaw

It may be that Netanyahu is not as open to an enquiry as previous Labor or Kadima governments were and if thats the case I'll be as annoyed as anyone else.

Memnoch

Why do we not have more faith in Israeli led inquirys and Israeli led justice into such incidents?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel

An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

But the IDF wouldn't lie and try to cover this up would they?

The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.

The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."

The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.

Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.

On the tape, the company commander then "clarifies" why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."

I'm sure Israeli apologists will make some excuse amounting to blaming the victim.

Another example ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)

depicts Miller and his colleagues leaving the home of a Palestinian family in the Rafah refugee camp after dark, carrying a white flag. They had walked about 20 metres from the veranda when the first shot rang out.[14] For 13 seconds, there was silence broken only by Shah’s cry: "We are British journalists." Then came the second shot, which killed Miller. He was shot in the front of his neck.[14] The bullet was Israeli issue, fired, according to a forensic expert, from less than 200 metres away.[14] Immediately after the shooting, the IDF said that Miller had been shot in the back during crossfire. It later retracted the assertion that he had been shot in the back. According to witnesses there was no crossfire and none can be heard on the APTN tape.[14]

Yes again the IDF enquiry failed to hold anyone to account.

They shoot and kill innocent people, then make up stories and cover up their actions and arseholes all around the world gobble up this nonsense time and time again and defend them and attempt to justify their actions to high heaven.

Seriously, do people have no empathy at all? But it's not the IDF or the Israeli Government to blame right? It's ALWAYS someone else's fault that they are "forced" to murder innocent people and not be held to account for their actions.

droidus

Crude and polemical yes, but this is an essential rundown of the Israeli Hasbara manual for those who dont know:

You’re talking bollox, Mr Regev
A short primer on Israeli propaganda for media dummies*

...The 116-page manual is designed to help the worldwide Zionist movement win the propaganda war, keep their ill-gotten territorial gains and persuade international audiences to accept that their crimes are necessary and in line with “shared values” between Israel and the West.

It was written by The Israel Project, which describes itself as “devoted to educating the press and the public about Israel while promoting security, freedom and peace”. The organization claims to provide journalists, leaders and opinion-formers with “accurate information about Israel”.

What it really does is undermine with clever words and discredited techniques the inalienable rights pledged by the UN to all peoples, including the Palestinians.

The manual teaches the sort of propaganda bollox that Israel’s scribblers and drivellers use to try to justify the slaughter, the ethnic cleansing, the land-grabbing, the cruelty and their blatant disregard for international law and UN resolutions, and make it all smell sweet with a liberal sprinkling of persuasive words. It is designed to hoodwink hard-bitten media types into believing that we actually share values with the racist regime in Israel and that its abominable behaviour is therefore deserving of support...

http://www.redress.cc/palestine/slittlewood20100609