Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

droidus

Memnoch wrote: »

Seriously, do people have no empathy at all? But it's not the IDF or the Israeli Government to blame right? It's ALWAYS someone else's fault that they are "forced" to murder innocent people and not be held to account for their actions.

Its actually a carefully constructed propaganda narrative:

...there are two narratives developing in the media, and among the commentariat, in which Israel is either a bungling, Frank Spencer-style dolt, well-meaning but overly eager, or a sort of mannequin with no animus of its own, pushed into action exclusively by external forces. The former narrative is most popular. Note the ubiquity of the phrase "botched raid" in the reporting. As if Netanyahu's cabinet didn't send the notoriously violent Masada unit (whose crimes against humanity usually take place in the locus of one of Israel's political jails, or in the vicinity of a peaceful Palestinian protest) to storm the Mavi Marmara on purpose. As if the whole thing wasn't planned for weeks in advance, in detail, from inception to denouement. As if the probability of murders wasn't accounted for.

The second narrative, the marionette tale, is more specialised fare, and it is perhaps telling that two of Israel's liberal "critics" should purvey it in different versions. Example one: Turkish Islamists used humanitarians as bait to "lure Israel into a trap, precisely because it knew how Israel would react, knew how Israel is destined and compelled, like a puppet on a string, to react the way it did." Example two: Israel had "no choice" but to murder the aid workers because they had "issued threat after threat against the IDF in the days building up to this morning's clash" and on the day used "iron bars and other weapons to assault the troops and giving the IDF carte blanche to respond with force against them". The aid workers compelled Israeli troops to kill them, gave them no options. Their every action was pre-determined from start to finish, and even if the results are regrettable, and even if Israel initiated the aggression and pulled the trigger, it bears no responsibility.

It has a venerable history, this idea. Golda Meir expressed it most pithily when she said that she would never forgive the Arabs for making Israel kill their children. In whatever variant it takes, it is surely revealing that the best defence (or least worst criticism) of Israel that such people can muster is that Israel is not a responsible agent.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/06/israel-marionette-or-schlemiel.html

Memnoch

droidus wrote: »

Its actually a carefully constructed propaganda narrative:

I get that, but what drives me nuts is how ordinary, intelligent and generally nice seeming people on boards buy into this crap time and time again and parrot it ad nauesum. Do people have no brains or eyes? Can they not see the obvious pattern?

1) Israel kills innocent people

2) Israel blames killing on someone else (either "terrorists" or the people themselves)

3) One by one the IDF's defence is dismantled.

4) Israel admits "mistakes" in its account but refuses to hold independent investigation or holds investigations that result in no more than a slap on the wrist.

5) Dupes all around the world assert that Israel acted "understandably"

Rinse and repeat.

Run_to_da_hills

Obama pledges $400 million for housing, school construction and business development in Gaza

This is a rather expensive way around not condemning the floatilla murders outright.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-fg-obama-mideast-20100610,0,3745954.story

No doubt all this effort will be soon cancelled out with Israels proposed increase in air force weapons from the same country.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-asked-u-s-to-increase-weapons-supply-haaretz-learns-1.294803

droidus

Memnoch wrote: »

I get that, but what drives me nuts is how ordinary, intelligent and generally nice seeming people on boards buy into this crap time and time again and parrot it ad nauesum. Do people have no brains or eyes? Can they not see the obvious pattern?

1) Israel kills innocent people

2) Israel blames killing on someone else (either "terrorists" or the people themselves)

3) One by one the IDF's defence is dismantled.

4) Israel admits "mistakes" in its account but refuses to hold independent investigation or holds investigations that result in no more than a slap on the wrist.

5) Dupes all around the world assert that Israel acted "understandably"

I think most people dont really care, and TBH, I think most people outside of the US and Israel dont buy it. The 'dupes' tend to be dedicated idiots who are either blinded by media coverage which never addresses the context of Israel's acts, or have their own political agenda to push. And TBF they exist on both sides, its just the Israeli side has the weight of mass media (in the US at least) and organisation behind it.

But the empty barrel makes the most noise as they say. Take a look at this thread as an example, the vast majority of posters instinctively know what israel has done is wrong, and those arguing in favour of Israel, have, for the most part been completely unconvincing.

But yes it is frustrating. In the 15 or so years Ive been following events in the mid east Ive seen the same pattern time and again, and you can see it as far back as the 6 day war.

Rinse and repeat.

Its amazing how much power repetition has in the hands of authorities... say something enough times and people start accepting it.

youcrazyjesus!

Btw, Prime Time special from Gaza tonight for anyone who is interested.

halkar

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Obama pledges $400 million for housing, school construction and business development in Gaza

That is how much Obama knows what is going on. What will they construct schools with?

droidus

A great piece on the degeneration of Israeli politics from the persistently OTM Heathlander blog:

...Thus, it was no surprise that Israeli outrage at the Freedom Flotilla’s attempt to break the siege of Gaza and deliver humanitarian aid to its population was trained in particular on its Israeli-Palestinian participants. Israel’s assault on the aid convoy was perceived within Israel, through the usual prism of racism and perpetual victimhood, as a legitimate exercise of ‘self-defence’. As Chomsky explains, this reversal of ‘victim’ and ‘aggressor’ is “a constant refrain of imperialism”:

“You have your jackboot on someone’s neck and they’re about to destroy you.”

With the world united in revulsion at the massacre, Israeli society was equally outraged – at the victims, and at the Palestinian victims in particular. MK Haneen Zoubi of the Arab nationalist Balad party was one of the Palestinian citizens of Israel aboard the convoy. Even before the attack on the flotilla Israel’s most popular newspaper asked whether Zoubi was an “MP in the service of Hamas”. Afterwards, MK Danon of the ruling Likud party led calls for her to be “tried for treason”. A Facebook group was set up demanding her execution while other Arab MKs likewise received death threats. The Interior Minister Eli Yishai announced his intention to strip Zoubi of Israeli citizenship for leading a group of “terrorists” against IDF soldiers. The Knesset House Committee voted 7-1 to revoke Zoubi’s parliamentary privileges, in a move condemned by the Knesset Speaker as a step towards “tyranny and the nullification” of the Arab population. The process leading up to the vote was farcical, with the “evidence” presented against Zoubi including a quote from the Balad party website in which she ‘identifies as a Palestinian’.

In a parliamentary session she attempted to address the Knesset but was continually interrupted with cries of “Go back to Gaza, traitor!”, “terrorist”, “Hamas”, and “Trojan horse”, while one MK from the governing Yisrael Beiteinu party actively chased her around the room to prevent her from speaking. “The mood was so hostile”, Zoubi recounts, “that, had MPs been allowed to carry guns, I am sure someone would have shot me”. Notable again is that the persecution of Zoubi was not confined to the Likudnik right. As Gideon Levy writes, Kadima members “shouted the loudest against Zuabi”, while Kadima head Tzipi Livni, often contrasted with the Evil Netanyahu by American and European liberals, stayed silent throughout. “Israel has no opposition”, Levy concludes, just “a random bunch of nationalist, McCarthyist, militarist, chauvinist, loudmouthed bawlers, raising anti-democratic proposals in the Knesset as if it were the last radical right-wing party”.

http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/enabling-israels-degeneration/

droidus

Chomsky on the Flotilla:

Hijacking boats in international waters and killing passengers is, of course, a serious crime. The editors of the London Guardian are quite right to say that “If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a Nato taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast.” It is worth bearing in mind that the crime is nothing new.

For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats in international waters between Cyprus and Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes bringing them to prisons in Israel including secret prison/torture chambers, sometimes holding them as hostages for many years.

Israel assumes that it can carry out such crimes with impunity because the US tolerates them and Europe generally follows the US lead...

http://www.thecommentfactory.com/chomsky-on-gaza-freedom-flotilla-3073/

OTM as always.

prinz

Scofflaw wrote: »

Israel gets a fair bit of good press in an incidental way - particularly if one is interested in technology. It's true that when they appear in the mainstream media's foreign affairs section, it's usually for something like a war or targeted assassinations with Israel as the villain, or as the victim of rocket attacks from Gaza..

..but what you'll rarely see is Israeli-Palestinian cooperation for example. Northern Ireland was much the same, in that you rarely if ever got to see people from both sides living peacefully together nor the people from both sides working toward a solution. What you will see is the crazies and the foot soldiers they use to play chess with.

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not really convinced of that. Israel has agreements with pretty much all its neighbours, whom in any case it is much stronger than.

Israel became militarised in the past, when neighbouring countries weren't always so friendly. When the IDF is the reason your country exists at all it becomes difficult to remove it from centre stage. The role of the army in Turkey would be comparable.

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's hard not to assume that we're looking at a process that doesn't end until there are no more Palestinian enclaves in the area Israel considers its territory, and until that time Israeli society must remain militarised because it means to keep the pressure on, and therefore can expect to generate a reactive force.

The question you have to ask yourself is even if Israel had remained at the '67 borders would the area be a happy place with everyone hand in hand and no one picking on each other. IMO no it wouldn't.

droidus

In relation to the blockade - this is absolutely heartbreaking for anyone who hasnt seen it:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od#3076167

In December 2008, the Israeli Defence Force unleashed a campaign to destroy the ability of Hamas to launch rockets and mortars into Israel. Around 300 children were among the 1,300 Palestinians that were killed.

After the ceasefire, BAFTA-winning filmmaker Jezza Neumann arrived in Gaza to follow the lives of three children over a year.

Surrounded by the remnants of the demolished Gaza Strip and increasingly isolated by the blockade that prevents anyone from rebuilding their homes and their lives, Children of Gaza is a shocking, touching and uniquely intimate reflection on extraordinary courage in the face of great adversity.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

The question you have to ask yourself is even if Israel had remained at the '67 borders would the area be a happy place with everyone hand in hand and no one picking on each other. IMO no it wouldn't.

Just as there's no end to sectarianism in NI. But a return to '67 borders would have the benefit of releasing millions of people from effective imprisonment and the collective punishment of occupation. That'd do for a start.

prinz

alastair wrote: »

Just as there's no end to sectarianism in NI. But a return to '67 borders would have the benefit of releasing millions of people from effective imprisonment and the collective punishment of occupation. That'd do for a start.

It would do for a start.... problems arise when what you would consider for the finish.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

It would do for a start.... problems arise when what you would consider for the finish.

No justification for delaying doing the right thing. Palestines future is for Palestinians to decide - no-one else.

prinz

alastair wrote: »

No justification for delaying doing the right thing. Palestines future is for Palestinians to decide - no-one else.

..and that's why there will never be any sort of peace.:rolleyes: Congratulations on going back to square one.

gandalf

alastair wrote: »

No justification for delaying doing the right thing. Palestines future is for Palestinians to decide - no-one else.

To be fair no its not. The way to progress is to talk and to recognise each others right to exist and right to a proper standard of life without the fear of violence from either side.

If this happens and there are no over the top reactions to attempts by extremists to derail the process there is hope for Israel and Palestine to co-exist peacefully.

That's the ideal situation and tbh based on what I have seen we are very far away from that. Israel is not going to rein back its disproportionate reactions or blockade unless its sees consequences for its actions. And until the US starts to deal with the situation in that region in a more even handed manner this is not a reality.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

..and that's why there will never be any sort of peace.:rolleyes: Congratulations on going back to square one.

Going back to square 1 (Israel within the borders of Israel) is what's required - there isn't any other route to peace - unless you think that Israel is prepared to take on board 4 million Palestinians, and the voting block they entail?

alastair

gandalf wrote: »

To be fair no its not. The way to progress is to talk and to recognise each others right to exist and right to a proper standard of life without the fear of violence from either side.

If this happens and there are no over the top reactions to attempts by extremists to derail the process there is hope for Israel and Palestine to co-exist peacefully.

That's the ideal situation and tbh based on what I have seen we are very far away from that. Israel is not going to rein back its disproportionate reactions or blockade unless its sees consequences for its actions. And until the US starts to deal with the situation in that region in a more even handed manner this is not a reality.

How exactly does any of the above deny the fact that the future of Palestine is for Palestinains (alone) to decide? There's a peace settlement to be worked out with Israel, but real self-determination is the only future possibility that will bring lasting peace.

Fuhrer

gandalf wrote: »

To be fair no its not. The way to progress is to talk and to recognise each others right to exist.

Talking about a right to exist is one thing, how about practising it.

wes

Just saw this via Richard Silverstein's Tikun Olam blog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA&feature=player_embedded

A description of the video from the blog:

IDF Executed Mavi Marmara Victims

In my earlier posts about the killings aboard the Mavi Marmara, I used terms like “kill shot” and “execution-style” to describe these events. I based my judgment on the narratives told by eyewitnesses and the Turkish autopsy reports. Some readers were taken aback and accused me of overstatement, exaggeration and worse. But this video vividly confirms my strong suspicions.

It shows IDF commandos executing a passenger on the Mavi Marmara with one and possibly two point blank shots from above into the victim who lies on the boat deck. In truth, one cannot distinguish the face of the victim since it is blocked by a boat railing. But from the muzzle flashes and weapon recoils and the downward direction in which the shooter looks at his victim, it is clear this is an execution just as I described earlier.

The video caption claims this is the murder of 19 year-old Turkish-American high school student Furkan Dogan. While it is possible there is earlier footage not shown in this video that displayed the victim’s face and enabled one to identify him, I won’t vouch for Dogan as being the specific victim. But what is incontrovertible is that this is A Mavi Marmara passenger being murdered.

Click here for the rest

I wonder what we could see if we had the rest of the footage from the floatilla people avaliable.

prinz

alastair wrote: »

Going back to square 1 (Israel within the borders of Israel) is what's required - there isn't any other route to peace - unless you think that Israel is prepared to take on board 4 million Palestinians, and the voting block they entail?

Israel within the borders of Israel... isn't that what you meant by a good start? I am curious to know after Israel is within the borders of Israel what then?

wes

prinz wrote: »

Israel within the borders of Israel... isn't that what you meant by a good start? I am curious to know after Israel is within the borders of Israel what then?

Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Presumably the above will happen, as that deal is still on the table even after all the crap Israel has pulled since 2002.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

Israel within the borders of Israel... isn't that what you meant by a good start? I am curious to know after Israel is within the borders of Israel what then?

What then? You let the Palestinians sort out their own affairs and keep your oar out unless it impacts on Israel - and if it does you respond with proportional measure - a new trick for an old dog. The logistics and specifics of whatever peace/withdrawal deal is agreed don't really matter to the long-term decisions that the Palestinians need to make - no more than the Egyptians or Jordanians are guided by the terms of their peace deals.

droidus

alastair wrote: »

Going back to square 1 (Israel within the borders of Israel) is what's required - there isn't any other route to peace - unless you think that Israel is prepared to take on board 4 million Palestinians, and the voting block they entail?

Uh huh, and this approach has been advocated by pretty much the entire world, was accepted by the PLO and the Arab world as far back as '76 and has been reiterated as the only way forward time and again by the UN.

Dismantle the settlements, and withdraw to the green line allowing for minor and mutual territorial compromises. That is the way forward and has been the way forward for decades. The Palestinians are under no obligation to recognise the state of Israel when Israel is occupying Palestine - yet DESPITE this, the PLO, the arab world and Hamas have all offered explicit AND implicit recognition if Israel abides by international law and withdraws.

droidus

wes wrote: »

Just saw this via Richard Silverstein's Tikun Olam blog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA&feature=player_embedded

A description of the video from the blog:

I wonder what we could see if we had the rest of the footage from the floatilla people avaliable.

But.... but.... the guy on the ground was trying to lynch the soldiers... it was obviously self defense on the part of the 2 heavily armed commandos holding him to the ground and shooting him in the head.

wes

droidus wrote: »

But.... but.... the guy on the ground was trying to lynch the soldiers... it was obviously self defense on the part of the 2 heavily armed commandos holding him to the ground and shooting him in the head.

It would not surprise me, if someone says more or less that at some point.

Anyway, the video does pose very interesting questions, and the UN needs to demand the release of footage stolen (very possibly destroyed) by the IDF. If it turns out to be destroyed, then I think the IDF are clearly hiding something, and likely guilty of murder.

Byron85

One of the Irish activists, Fiachra O'Luain, is meeting with some representatives from Fine Gael later on today. Apparently the Israelis confiscated his passport and he still hasn't received it back. That can't be legal, can it?

Fuhrer

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

One of the Irish activists, Fiachra O'Luain, is meeting with some representatives from Fine Gael later on today. Apparently the Israelis confiscated his passport and he still hasn't received it back. That can't be legal, can it?

Mossad must have called dibbs on it.

droidus

wes wrote: »

Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Presumably the above will happen, as that deal is still on the table even after all the crap Israel has pulled since 2002.

On this note:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas recognizes Jewish rights in Israel, and is ready for a two state solution with some borders modifications that will allow Israel to keep some of the bigger settlements.

In a meeting in Washington with 30 Jewish leaders, among them those who supports Netanyahu’s government such as AIPAC and ADL, Abaas declared that if Israel accepts a solution based on the 67′ borders, direct negotiations can resume.
Haaretz reports:

The Palestinian president said during the discussion that he had in the past proposed creating a trilateral commission to monitor and punish incitement, but that Israel did not agree to it.
When asked what he could offer Israelis to show that he was serious about peace initiatives, Abbas reminded the participants that he had addressed the Israeli public in an interview on Channel 10. “Why wouldn’t Bibi go to Palestinian TV and do the same?” said the Palestinian president.
“I would never deny [the] Jewish right to the land of Israel,” Abbas then declared.

A few months ago, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said that he is ready to have the Palestinian refugees return to the Palestinian state (rather then Israel), so basically, it can be said that all of Israel’s major concerns have been met by the Palestinians. We need to appreciate the price Palestinian leaders are paying at home for such declarations.
Yet Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continues to show very little enthusiasm for the diplomatic process, and his senior cabinet ministers keep opposing any concessions. Deputy PM Moshe Yaalon just recently said in an interview to Yedioth Ahronoth that “nobody in the seven ministers cabinet (the Government’s decision making forum) believes we can reach an agreement.”

The reason for Israeli rejectionism lies in the internal political dynamic in Israel. No matter what Palestinians say or do, Israeli leaders have no real incentive to go through the extremely difficult process of evacuating settlements. This is why they are preparing the public for a failure of the negotiations, even though we now have the most moderate Palestinian leadership ever.

http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=3026

rapparee

Nijmegen wrote: »

I commented in AH, also here: firstly, it's not yet clear what happened. Israelis report having being attacked, and I could see some truth to that, so we will have to see what happens there.

Secondly, Hamas are also "animals" - they murdered their elected counterparts in Gaza and have been dropping rockets on Israel. Go live nearby to that border and Israeli foreign policy makes more sense.

There is no good guy in this, and if I were Israel I'd have done this differently. But these protestors were delivering a terrorist organization a huge victory as well as aid to civilians.

Hamas may be animals, but the people living in Gaza aren't. Israel claimed pasta could be used as deadly weapon, so they banned it. After "operation cast lead" when the city was destroyed, they still wouldn't allow cement through for rebuilding.

They occupied Gaza, The West Bank, and East Jerusalem after the 1967 war, which under UN resolution 242 is illegal. They continue to build Jewish only settlements in these areas, which is also illegal.

And this whole operation wasn't about Hamas, it's about civilians being attacked and killed. Nobody on that boat was a "terrorist". Israel said they were fired upon by live rounds....there is no proof of that. And if they were fired upon then why would they let these people go ?

If Israel was right in it's actions, why did it confiscate all the film from peoples cameras ? Surely they would want more proof of their bravery against an armed enemy.

Everybody knows Israels navy is well trained, why decide upon the most intimidating and violent way of boarding a boat ? An armed commando raid at night.

The autopsy on the bodies of those who were killed said the bullets were fired from less then a foot away. Why does it take over three shots into somebody's head to stop them ?

But if you think that Hamas are "also animals" means you agree with Israel acting like animals if you condone their foreign policy.

Offy

droidus wrote: »

I think most people dont really care, and TBH, I think most people outside of the US and Israel dont buy it. The 'dupes' tend to be dedicated idiots who are either blinded by media coverage which never addresses the context of Israel's acts, or have their own political agenda to push. And TBF they exist on both sides, its just the Israeli side has the weight of mass media (in the US at least) and organisation behind it.

But the empty barrel makes the most noise as they say. Take a look at this thread as an example, the vast majority of posters instinctively know what israel has done is wrong, and those arguing in favour of Israel, have, for the most part been completely unconvincing.

But yes it is frustrating. In the 15 or so years Ive been following events in the mid east Ive seen the same pattern time and again, and you can see it as far back as the 6 day war.



Its amazing how much power repetition has in the hands of authorities... say something enough times and people start accepting it.

I disagree, I think from the traffic threads about Israel get there are a lot of people that care. I will never accept governments murdering civilians.

On a separate issue, there are a lot of new members (1-2 years membership) that are defending Israel. In real life I have not meet one person that defends Israel so why are new members so defensive? Would it be possible for the mods to trace the IP addresses to the country that the posts are coming from and see how many members are actually posting from Ireland and how many members are posting from Israel? I suspect that a lot of the posts that defend the murder of civilians, aid workers, etc. are actually from members of the IDF.