Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

BlaasForRafa

droidus wrote: »

More smuggled footage, featuring the Israeli 'assassination list'.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html

Assassination list? thats just absurd, its obviously an information booklet prepared for the soldiers. Any kind of accusation that it was an "assassination list" is pure conspiracy theory stuff.

And this footage is not unedited, its a collectioned of clips stitched together in order to try and manufacture some kind of narrative, there is allegedly an hour of footage but I can't stream it at work, I'll be interested to see if it offers anything new but it seems unlikely, most of the stuff in that clip was from below decks or in the aftermath.

Run_to_da_hills

droidus wrote: »

Classy!

Italian flotilla journalist: My credit card was used after IDF confiscated it

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/italian-flotilla-journalist-my-credit-card-was-used-after-idf-confiscated-it-1.295493

It would be also interesting to see how much of their personal possessions, cameras, mobile phones etc will end up on Ebay.

droidus

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Assassination list? thats just absurd, its obviously an information booklet prepared for the soldiers. Any kind of accusation that it was an "assassination list" is pure conspiracy theory stuff.

Its in quotes for a reason. But Ill bow to you on this one seeing as you've demonstrated your expertise on the 'absurd' so convincingly on this thread. :rolleyes:

BlaasForRafa

droidus wrote: »

Its in quotes for a reason. But Ill bow to you on this one seeing as you've demonstrated your expertise on the 'absurd' so convincingly on this thread. :rolleyes:

When it comes to the likes of you theres plenty of absurd to look out for.

Offy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Some of the pro-palestinian supporters here have been saying that the activists weren't preparing for an attack in advance....the Marmara's captain says otherwise

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-flotilla-captain-activists-prepared-attack-against-idf-raid-1.295591

Where and when was that video made?

droidus

When it comes to the likes of you theres plenty of absurd to look out for.

Quite.

BTW, can you give me an address so that next time you need a history lesson I have somewhere to send the invoice? :P

Offy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

When it comes to the likes of you theres plenty of absurd to look out for.

Sorry to go off topic but what does your signature mean?

Run_to_da_hills

Offy wrote: »

Where and when was that video made?

More than likely what type of gun was put to his head when he made this statement.

Offy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

More than likely what type of gun was put to his head when he made this statement.

Judging from what other captives that have since been released have said thats what I suspect too.

BlaasForRafa

Offy wrote: »

Judging from what other captives that have since been released have said thats what I suspect too.

Thats just another conspiracy theory type of comment. The captain looked pretty relaxed and open and relieved to be able to talk about what was going on.

Offy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats just another conspiracy theory type of comment. The captain looked pretty relaxed and open and relieved to be able to talk about what was going on.

Based on eye witness accounts it could hardly be called a theory. Can we get back to what your signature means because it looks incredibly racist to me. Are you a support of bulldozing peoples houses if they are not Jewish? Is that why you refuse to believe the Jews are not racist?

Nodin

...well, certain Israeli Jews maybe. They are not, however, representative.

Run_to_da_hills

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats just another conspiracy theory type of comment. The captain looked pretty relaxed and open and relieved to be able to talk about what was going on.

Is falsifying 9 Irish passports a conspiracy?

No, the Israelis are capable of anything, they are masters of deception as we have all seen through their various blunders and attempted cover up's including this one.

droidus

In light of the events of the last few months I think 'masters' might be putting it rather strongly.

All they really need to do is concoct a reasonably convincing smokescreen with the usual PR drones that can run on US and Israeli TV for a few nights. Once its off the front pages the evidence of deceit can pile up as it always does but the Americans wont be watching by then.

Obviously this has been a total propaganda meltdown in global terms, but the polls show massive support in Israel and marginal support in the US for the IDF verison of events, so in a way theyve managed to shave through - so far at least.

The interesing thing now is to see if the Spanish proposal for EU trade sanctions, or the consequences of follow up flotillas can lead to a shift in EU policy without the US on board.

Run_to_da_hills

Israel must apologize and compensate.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=178217

BlaasForRafa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Israel must apologize and compensate.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=178217

....says the turkish prime minister.

Perhaps he should be apologising and compensating the Kurdish people for the repression against them before lecturing Israel.

BlaasForRafa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is falsifying 9 Irish passports a conspiracy?

No, the Israelis are capable of anything, they are masters of deception as we have all seen through their various blunders and attempted cover up's including this one.

try rereading your post, what you're saying is a contradiction in terms.

droidus

....says the turkish prime minister.

Perhaps he should be apologising and compensating the Kurdish people for the repression against them before lecturing Israel.

I mustve missed the bit where Turkey murdered a bunch of Israeli aid activists trying to bring humanitarian aid to Kurds under a 'medieval' (to quote UNRWA) Turkish blockade.

Link?

Irlandese

droidus wrote: »

I mustve missed the bit where Turkey murdered a bunch of Israeli aid activists trying to bring humanitarian aid to Kurds under a 'medieval' (to quote UNRWA) Turkish blockade.

Link?

How do you like christians?
Have you heard any news about Turkey finally admitting to, if not apologising for the
genocide against the Armenians who are christians?
It is all a bit embarrassing, I know. What with the Turks now championing human rights and their own kurds being subjected to hamas-style mahem and the ghosts of millions of poor Armenians refusing to be forgotten.
Damned inconvenient I should say. Damned Armenians and Kurds !

digme

wes wrote: »

There claiming the IDF video's were faked. Not too sure about that claim tbh, but it was an interesting read.

**EDIT**
Just saw droidus post, so beaten to it.
**END EDIT**

totally.

Macha

Irlandese wrote: »

How do you like christians?
Have you heard any news about Turkey finally admitting to, if not apologising for the
genocide against the Armenians who are christians?
It is all a bit embarrassing, I know. What with the Turks now championing human rights and their own kurds being subjected to hamas-style mahem and the ghosts of millions of poor Armenians refusing to be forgotten.
Damned inconvenient I should say. Damned Armenians and Kurds !

Sorry what exactly does this have to do with the Israeli attack on the flotilla? I'm confused.

Nodin

Irlandese wrote: »

How do you like christians?
Have you heard any news about Turkey finally admitting to, if not apologising for the
genocide against the Armenians who are christians?
It is all a bit embarrassing, I know. What with the Turks now championing human rights and their own kurds being subjected to hamas-style mahem and the ghosts of millions of poor Armenians refusing to be forgotten.
Damned inconvenient I should say. Damned Armenians and Kurds !

So because Turkey are 'bad', Israel are 'ok'?

Did he say that?
It's just a post about the pot calling the kettle black árse thats all.

Scofflaw

Deleted User wrote: »

Did he say that?
It's just a post about the pot calling the kettle black árse thats all.

When the kettle has a black arse, it doesn't matter who points it out. It doesn't take clean hands to point out dirty ones.

Also, that's a particularly poor choice of stick to beat Turkey with, since Israel doesn't recognise the Armenian genocide - presumably as part of good relations with Turkey.

cordially,
scofflaw

I do think the question of moral authority when speaking is very important though.
Mind you if we were to apply that rule,there are a lot of black ársed pots and kettles sticking their oar in with human rights issues every day and we'd end up with a very tiny pool probably of speakers allowed.
The pot and lettle issue raised above is a valid point though to make I think outside in the real world where one is not restricted by a tightly focused thread based internet discussion.
Normal conversation would include it.
In the internet world however,the various pots and kettles invariably get directed to a new thread where more often than not the issue they raise is sadly mostly then ignored.
When faced with that,my general advice is it's not worth it so those posters are better off not engaging because the opponents feelings are so strong on the matter that it's better off not engaging.
Thats a sad reflection on debate mind but the truth I think.

Macha

Deleted User wrote: »

I do think the question of moral authority when speaking is very important though.

Why? A crime is a crime, no matter who points it out. Questioning the authority of the person pointing it out is just another version of the argument to authority.

Deleted User wrote: »

Mind you if we were to apply that rule,there are a lot of black ársed pots and kettles sticking their oar in with human rights issues every day and we'd end up with a very tiny pool probably of speakers allowed.
The pot and lettle issue raised above is a valid point though to make I think outside in the real world where one is not restricted by a tightly focused thread based internet discussion.
Normal conversation would include it.

You still haven't explained why it should be considered other than saying it tends to come up in normal conversation. Not really an argument for whether it should or shouldn't, really.

Deleted User wrote: »

In the internet world however,the various pots and kettles invariably get directed to a new thread where more often than not the issue they raise is sadly mostly then ignored.
When faced with that,my general advice is it's not worth it so those posters are better off not engaging because the opponents feelings are so strong on the matter that it's better off not engaging.
Thats a sad reflection on debate mind but the truth I think.

So your advice to people who aren't allowed to beat around the bush, appeal to arguments to authority and generally take the discussion off topic is not to join the debate? If they can't defend their argument on its own merits then they should admit as much and move on.

taconnol

taconnol wrote: »

Why? A crime is a crime, no matter who points it out. Questioning the authority of the person pointing it out is just another version of the argument to authority.

No it isn't.
It's what goes on every day.People generally won't take lectures from hypocrites.Thats no reflection on the meriuts of what the hypocrite might point out if it's a strong enough case to stand without them pointing it out in the first place.
This is.

You still haven't explained why it should be considered other than saying it tends to come up in normal conversation. Not really an argument for whether it should or shouldn't, really.

It's life.It goes back to this same area tangent several pages back in the thread which like any tangent gets the j'accuse whataboutery..

So your advice to people who aren't allowed to beat around the bush, appeal to arguments to authority and generally take the discussion off topic is not to join the debate? If they can't defend their argument on its own merits then they should admit as much and move on.

My advice was where it's obvious people want to ignore their points,theres no point in introducing them further.

Let me put it this way.People who bring up apparent hypocrisy in a thread shouldn't be automatically accused of deflection.
It may not be their intention at all.
I'm around long enough to measure the reactions of people in this thread appalled enough by Israeli actions to be annoyed that side issues come up.
Thats why I wouldn't bother bringing up side issues here regardless of how much value I place on them.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Byron85

The Israeli Ambassador has published an open letter in today's Sunday Independent.

I was disappointed to read your letter of June 6 in this newspaper. Given the biased coverage of some in the Irish media of recent events, I was not surprised to see that you have complaints regarding some of Israel's actions. However, I would have hoped for a more balanced analysis from you as a distinguished historian.
One of the most notable errors in your letter is your mistaken use of the word anti-semitism. In the 19th century, the German Jew-hater Wilhelm Marr coined it to describe the anti-Jewish campaigns in Europe of that time. Since then, it has always referred to the repression and hatred of Jews. While Arabs are indeed fellow Semites, the term anti-semitism does not encompass anti-Arab feelings.
Therefore, your slur against Israel as anti-semitic is not only factually incorrect; it is outrageous given the true anti-semitism that exists today, not least in the Arab world. For it is Islamist governments like Iran's, whose foreign minister was, incidentally, a guest in Dublin last week, and terrorist groups like Hamas that deny the Holocaust and disseminate anti-Jewish propaganda. Hamas's own charter is full of anti-semitic verses such as: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".
On the other hand, in Israel Arab-Israelis are equal citizens with equal rights. Based on our identity as a democratic state -- and in accordance with our Proclamation of Independence which states that Israel "will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex" -- discrimination is prohibited under the law.
Accordingly, Arab-Israelis are involved actively in all areas of Israeli life and serve as government ministers in the Knesset (parliament), in the Supreme Court, as ambassadors, army officers and mayors. And while Israel -- like most Western nations with a sizable minority population -- still has much to do before absolute equality is reached, its achievements in this area are impressive, particularly given the hostilities that still rage between Israel and some of its Arab neighbours.
Your letter is laced with false accusations against Israel, not all of which can be answered adequately due to space considerations. However, running through these claims, and indeed almost the entire letter, is a dearth of balance or elucidation of the reasons for those events you lament.
Never once is the role of the Palestinians in any of the events questioned. They are automatically absolved of any responsibility for their actions. If the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is to be analysed respectfully and fairly, then both sides must be subject to equal scrutiny.
Since 1948, and indeed before, Israel has suffered from the enmity of its neighbours, but sadly, you never once refer to the far-reaching concessions Israel has made to achieve peace. We gave to Egypt the Sinai, an area three times the size of Israel. In Lebanon, we withdrew to the internationally recognised borders.
At Camp David, we offered the Palestinians an independent state on almost all of the territories occupied by Israel. We withdrew from the Gaza Strip.
That goal of peace will remain elusive until one phenomenon ends: the unwillingness by some to recognise Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people and to allow that state to live in peace and security.
It was on these grounds that the nascent-state of Israel was attacked in 1948 by five Arab armies and it is on this basis that peace seems ever more elusive despite the start of the indirect proximity talks.
Although both sides have made mistakes over the years, the Palestinians are responsible for much of the conflict. They were the ones who rejected the UN Partition Plan of 1947, which would have given the Palestinians a state on 45 per cent of the Mandate Territory and the Jews 55 per cent for their state (more than half of which was desert). There would never have been a conflict had they accepted UN Resolution 181.
It is also the Palestinians who have refused to abandon violence and terrorism, even at the height of the peace process. Your letter made certain to mention two events: one (Sabra and Shatilla) a massacre actually carried out by Lebanese Christian forces, the other (Deir Yassin), a 1947 battle whose details remain contested till today. Yet while the list of Palestinian terrorist atrocities which caused thousand of Israeli civilian deaths, including hundreds of children, is endless, you have neglected to register any, despite their negative effects on hopes for peace.
Another inaccuracy occurs with regards to your statements about settlements. Not only are your figures concerning the percentages of land held by each side false, so too is your statement that "Jewish settlements proliferate almost hourly".
As I am sure you are aware, last November the Government of Israel instituted an unprecedented 10-month moratorium on new residential construction in the West Bank. That comes in addition to the long-standing policy that states that Israel would refrain from building new settlements in the West Bank, expanding existing settlements, providing government incentives for settlement activities or expropriating land for settlement-related use. Indeed, the presence of settlements is merely a pretense for the Palestinians, as the built-up area of all the settlements in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) constitutes less than 2 per cent of lands of that territory.
There are a few more subjects that deserve more attention, but to which I can only supply a quick reply:
• Israel left Gaza completely in 2005 in the hope that peace would follow, instead the number of rockets fired from Gaza increased from 108 in the preceding year to 946 in the following year.
• Israel did not drop white phosphorous on apartment buildings housing women and children. Subsequent research has shown that the vast majority of Palestinian casualties of the operation in Gaza were combatants.
• The Balfour Declaration is not the "foundation text" on which the State of Israel is based. Rather, that position of pride should be given to the 1922 resolution of the League of Nations, the predecessor of the United Nations, which decided to establish a national home for the Jewish people in their ancient homeland.
• Hamas is not the equivalent of the IRA. Rather, it is an Islamist, fundamentalist organisation that seeks not a political resolution, but the destruction of Israel and the Islamisation of a Palestinian state. Israel is willing to talk to former enemies and has done so with the Palestinian Authority. However, given Hamas's goals and continuing terrorist actions, Israel cannot negotiate with Hamas any more than the British could negotiate with the Real IRA.
Allow me to conclude by noting that while you went to the trouble of enumerating your pro-Jewish credentials, you disappointingly fell prey to anti-semitic myths. Israel does not have a "stranglehold" on the White House. Israel's close friendship with the US is based not on the power of any lobby, but on shared values. Both are strong democracies that believe in freedom, human rights and the rule of law. Both are allies in the campaign to rid the world of the scourge of terrorism. And it is in the interests of both that a stable, terrorism-free Middle East emerges.
Similarly, allow me to assure you that there is no "Zionists' hit list" and that the "Israel lobby" has little influence over the media. If it was so powerful, surely we would have been able to prevent publication of your unfortunate letter.
Zion Evrony PhD
Ambassador of Israel

To give him credit, he does write impressive propaganda pieces.

Scofflaw

taconnol wrote:

Why? A crime is a crime, no matter who points it out. Questioning the authority of the person pointing it out is just another version of the argument to authority.

More a form of ad hominem, I would have said. Either way, the status of the person pointing something out is relevant only if they're, say, a compulsive liar.

No amount of throwing mud at Israel's accusers changes Israel's culpability here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Offy

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The Israeli Ambassador has published an open letter in today's Sunday Independent.


To give him credit, he does write impressive propaganda pieces.

I read down to the part where it said 'the German Jew hater'. Why do they keep trying to play that card? Every time I hear that I think
Nazis : Jews = Jews : Palestinians