Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Offy

K-9 wrote: »

Offy, times have changed. There is a new administration, Thank God!

Posting links to 2008, shows such a complete unawareness of the USA, it is unbelievable.

Have they? Time will tell but lets be honest America have vetoed every action against Israel for years now. So I say to America 'Dont tell me, show me.'

K-9

Offy wrote: »

Have they? Time will tell but lets be honest America have vetoed every action against Israel for years now. So I say to America 'Dont tell me, show me.'

Maybe. You've changed the goal posts from your initial claim though.

Overheal

Offy wrote: »

Now your twisting what I said. I stand by all three quotes and I have provided proof for the first two where I wasnt speculating. Perhaps of you read the posts you will see that. Also keep in mind that Im Irish not American so when you talk about 'we' perhaps you should say 'we Americans'? If you dont like what your elected representatives say then take it up with them. Twisting my words to suit your agenda doesnt contribute to this conversation.

I don't believe I have twisted your words, but if you feel that way, please report my posts.



I will say We as I please. I typically leave it up to the end reader to conclude for themselves that if they're Irish and I say We in Context to the United States, that I am not inferring to that reader. Much in the same way if I was having a conversation between Christians and Atheists and I used the connotation "We", I would hope the Christian side of the debate had the wherewithal to comprehend that I wasn't possibly inferring that they were Atheists, and that I was referring to fellow Atheists.

Originally Posted by Offy
I wonder if this will get America involved? After America stated that they would use nuclear weapons on Iran it makes me wonder if Iran havent developed their own nuclear weapons. The sad part is America started the nuclear program in Iran and America gave nuclear weapons to Israel. Israel have already said Iran have the bomb, is the killing of the aid workers going to be viewed like the killing of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in years to come and will Einstein predictions about ww4 turn out to be true?

Not speculation!

You say so, but your evidence is Wikipedia quotes, and I have contested that. Which was about when we got to post #4256 where you didn't really address my concern that you were trying to directly imply the United States was poised to commit First Strike on Israel.

Interesting and scary. Both Israel and America have been looking to have a good old fight with Iran but who else is likely to join in? More importantly America is willing to drop the bomb on Iran and Israel will use any weapon they want. What will Iran bring to the table and who will Iran bring to the table? Time will tell.
Not speculation!

Same as above. I have not seen evidence that the United States is poised to Nuke Israel; or even that we have moved from Defense Condition 5, or 4 at best (in relation to your stance - otherwise, "at worst").

Im speculating on the outcome of Israel killing 9 aid workers from Iran. As America can veto any action against Israel then I guess Israel might remain safe. When you say "Also, we have plans "On the table" to nuke russia. Have done for 40+ years. " can you specify who the we is because Im Irish and 'we' dont have any nuclear weapons so how can 'we' have plans to nuke anyone? If you want to discuss America making sense then Im out of the conversation simply because I wouldnt even try and make sense of a country that supported and supplied Bin Laden.
Speculation

I hope that clears things up for you.

Doesnt really. You're speculating on what will happen if Israel attacks the Iranian flotilla, but you're doing so under the false assumption that the United States is searching for any excuse to prematurely ejaculate a load of nuclear ordnance at Iran.

Offy

K-9 wrote: »

Maybe. You've changed the goal posts from your initial claim though.

How is that? I still believe that America will veto any action against Israel. I still believe those aid workers were murdered by Israeli troops. I still believe BOTH America and Israel want a fight with Iran. I still believe BOTH America and Israel would use nuclear weapons. I still believe Israels actions are despicable. Where have I changed the goal posts? And for the record one of the quotes is less than a year old, its not from 2008 as stated.

Overheal

Offy wrote: »

How is that? I still believe that America will veto any action against Israel. I still believe those aid workers were murdered by Israeli troops. I still believe BOTH America and Israel want a fight with Iran. I still believe BOTH America and Israel would use nuclear weapons. I still believe Israels actions are despicable. Where have I changed the goal posts? And for the record one of the quotes is less than a year old, its not from 2008 as stated.

right there, you changed the goal posts. For the past hour or two here you've been peddling that belief as fact. Though now that you've brought it back down to the realm of "Belief", I no longer really have issue with it.

Offy

Overheal wrote: »

Which was about when we got to post #4256 where you didn't really address my concern that you were trying to directly imply the United States was poised to commit First Strike on Israel.

Once again I ask you to point out where I said the United States was poised to commit First Strike (or any other nuclear strike) on Israel because Ive looked for that post and am unable to find it.

Overheal wrote: »

Doesnt really. You're speculating on what will happen if Israel attacks the Iranian flotilla, but you're doing so under the false assumption that the United States is searching for any excuse to prematurely ejaculate a load of nuclear ordnance at Iran.

Yes I am speculating as I said. The United States is searching for any excuse to prematurely ejaculate a load of nuclear ordnance at Iran are your words, not mine. I dont believe that America would ejaculate a load of nuclear ordnance at Iran, just a few on select targets. Look at it this way, many years ago Bonkey and I had 'a difference of opinion' on the war of weapons of mass destruction. He claimed there were weapons of mass destruction, I claimed there were none and it was over ethnic cleansning. I was wrong about what the war was over but it wasnt over weapons of mass destruction. I dont think Im wrong about America and Israel wanting a fight with Iran but I hope I am. As I said time will tell.

Offy

Overheal wrote: »

right there, you changed the goal posts. For the past hour or two here you've been peddling that belief as fact. Though now that you've brought it back down to the realm of "Belief", I no longer really have issue with it.

I am speculating and they are my beliefs but the quotes are real. I didnt make them up!

Overheal

Offy wrote: »

Once again I ask you to point out where I said the United States was poised to commit First Strike (or any other nuclear strike) on Israel because Ive looked for that post and am unable to find it.

Dude, really?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66405243&postcount=4247

Yes I am speculating as I said. The United States is searching for any excuse to prematurely ejaculate a load of nuclear ordnance at Iran are your words, not mine. I dont believe that America would ejaculate a load of nuclear ordnance at Iran, just a few on select targets.

OhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHhhhHHhhhh....... Im sorry. Just a few. Thats alright then :rolleyes:

I for one dont think they really are anxious to unload so much as one. But thats just me.

Look at it this way, many years ago Bonkey and I had 'a difference of opinion' on the war of weapons of mass destruction. He claimed there were weapons of mass destruction, I claimed there were none and it was over ethnic cleansning. I was wrong about what the war was over but it wasnt over weapons of mass destruction. I dont think Im wrong about America and Israel wanting a fight with Iran but I hope I am. As I said time will tell.

Well I hope you're wrong too. I personally don't believe the US wants to get into any conflict with Iran, despite its preparations to do so,

"Stay awake, for you know not the hour."

K-9

Offy wrote: »

I am speculating and they are my beliefs but the quotes are real. I didnt make them up!

But the reasons you were speculating have proven to be false. There has been a change in administration.

The basis for your belief has now changed. You still hold that belief, despite the changes.

By the sounds of it, no matter what Obama does, you will still believe this. That is my belief.

Offy

K-9 wrote: »

But the reasons you were speculating have proven to be false. There has been a change in administration.

The basis for your belief has now changed. You still hold that belief, despite the changes.

By the sounds of it, no matter what Obama does, you will still believe this. That is my belief.

You say the basis for my belief has now changed but I say I have seen nothing to support that claim. I wait to see what, if anything, Obama does with anticipation. I dont hold much hope that he will do anything to stop Israel, quite the opposite tbh. A change in administration does not necessarily mean a change in policy.

K-9

Offy wrote: »

You say the basis for my belief has now changed but I say I have seen nothing to support that claim. I wait to see what, if anything, Obama does with anticipation. I dont hold much hope that he will do anything to stop Israel, quite the opposite tbh. A change in administration does not necessarily mean a change in policy.

But the policy towards Iran has changed?

Do you recognise, in any way, the change in tact between Bush and Obama?

BlaasForRafa

Overheal wrote: »

Dude, really?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66405243&postcount=4247



OhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHhhhHHhhhh....... Im sorry. Just a few. Thats alright then :rolleyes:

I for one dont think they really are anxious to unload so much as one. But thats just me

Wikiquotes hahahah....

Neither the US or Israel will use nukes under any circumstances unless there was a DIRECT threat of nuclear attack from Iran which, as they don't currently have the bomb, will not happen and scaremongering that it will...or that it might...is completely absurd in the extreme.

Overheal

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Wikiquotes hahahah....

Neither the US or Israel will use nukes under any circumstances unless there was a DIRECT threat of nuclear attack from Iran which, as they don't currently have the bomb, will not happen and scaremongering that it will...or that it might...is completely absurd in the extreme.

Even assuming they have the bomb and the delivery system, it seems unlikely they'd be silly enough to use it. Under those circumstances we would indeed assure their destruction.

Offy

"Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheal Martin will renew calls for an international probe into Israel's bloody raid on the Gaza aid flotilla when he meets with EU counterparts.
Mr Martin has requested that the deadly May 31 attack be added to the agenda at the monthly gathering of foreign ministers in Luxembourg.
The representatives will discuss the events leading up to the nine deaths on Turkish ship the Mavi Marmara, and Israel's ongoing blockade of Gaza.
"The key issue on the foreign policy side is Gaza and the Middle East peace process, in the aftermath of the Israeli seizure of the humanitarian flotilla," a spokeswoman said.
"The Minister will stress the need for a credible, transparent international investigation of the events, and re-emphasise the urgent need for Israel to lift the blockade to ease the humanitarian suffering of the people of Gaza."
Meanwhile, campaigners have called for a boycott of Israeli goods until the blockade ends.
Activists from the Irish Anti-War movement have vowed to continue holding demonstrations after taking their campaign to some of the capital's busiest supermarkets this weekend.
Joining the group as they loaded shopping trolleys with Israeli produce was Libyan-born Isam Bin Ali, one the Irish citizens deported from the Gaza Freedom flotilla."
Taken from:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100614/tuk-calls-for-gaza-flotilla-raid-probe-e1cd776.html
Whats the bets Israel will refuse any such probe?

BlaasForRafa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Ayalon now claims that 75 al-Qaeda linked mercenaries were on board the ship, heavily armed, and that they ambushed the Israeli troops before their eventual capture.

Last week Israel’s official story was that 50 members of the Turkish military were on board the ship, armed with assault rifles. It is unclear if Ayalon’s 75 al-Qaeda are in addition to the 50 Turkish troops or not. The 50 troops were themselves a revision from the initial story that the crew attacked them with makeshift bats." [/I]

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/13/israel-75-al-qaeda-mercenaries-on-aid-ship/

I'm no fan of Ayalon but that site you posted is saying things that Ayalon just didn't say. He didn't say that 75 activists were Al Qaeda linked, he said that some aboard had links to Al Qaeda and nowhere did he say that any of them were armed with assault rifles. That site is conflating things and adding bits to things that he said to change their meaning. Even the link in that article to another one of their own articles where the alleged assault rifle reference was made says absolutely NOTHING about assault rifles at all.

Johnboy1951

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm no fan of Ayalon but that site you posted is saying things that Ayalon just didn't say. He didn't say that 75 activists were Al Qaeda linked, he said that some aboard had links to Al Qaeda ..............

Maybe this will help with the number 75 .....

"Unfortunately, on the Turkish ship, we saw two types. That out of 675 people on the ship, about 600 were peace activists, I would say naive peace activists, about 75 were mercenaries," Ayalon said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3904526,00.html

According to the deputy FM, there were dozens of terrorists mixed in with peace activists on the flotilla.

"They were associated with al-Qaeda and other terror organizations," CNN quoted Ayalon as saying.


Seems quite clear to me what he said and meant.

Interpret it as you wish.

paulaa

Offy wrote: »

How is that? I still believe that America will veto any action against Israel. I still believe those aid workers were murdered by Israeli troops. I still believe BOTH America and Israel want a fight with Iran. I still believe BOTH America and Israel would use nuclear weapons. I still believe Israels actions are despicable. Where have I changed the goal posts? And for the record one of the quotes is less than a year old, its not from 2008 as stated.

This may prove your point in bold above

“The Saudis have given their permission for the Israelis to pass over and they will look the other way,” said a US defence source in the area. “They have already done tests to make sure their own jets aren’t scrambled and no one gets shot down. This has all been done with the agreement of the [US] State Department.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7148555.ece

paulaa

When reading the lies that came from Israeli MKs and their ambassadors aroundthe world about the aid flotilla, Martin is only an amateur in comparison

BlaasForRafa

alastair wrote: »

I'm not one to support FF, but when you say "his own Fianna Fail government restricts the probe into its disasterous handling of the banking crisis", I'm guessing that you're ignoring the two independent (and highly critical) reports the Govt commissioned into that very issue (The Regling/Watson report and the Patrick Honohan report)?

I am aware of them, I'm referring to the enquiry to be launched based on the two reports.

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I am aware of them, I'm referring to the enquiry to be launched based on the two reports.

The Commission of Investigation, to be undertaken by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance and the Public Service? The one that's independent of FF? Yep - aside from the independent, critical reports, and the independent enquiry, the Govt has been really restrictive in probing the banking/economic crisis. No way they can call for an indpendent enquiry on matters relating to Israel's actions.

Offy

alastair wrote: »

The Commission of Investigation, to be undertaken by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance and the Public Service? The one that's independent of FF? Yep - aside from the independent, critical reports, and the independent enquiry, the Govt has been really restrictive in probing the banking/economic crisis. No way they can call for an indpendent enquiry on matters relating to Israel's actions.

+1 well said. Israel need to follow that example if they ever want to be seen as a rouge state that kills indiscriminately. All the lies they tell only makes them look more foolish. With global communications as advanced as they are Israel surly cannot hope people from other countries will believe them. The more they kill aid workers and civilians the more the world will turn against them. Its a perfect case of the abused becoming the abuser.

sceptre

Large chunk of recent posts deleted that have veered so far off-topic to be laughable. As well as some handbagging.

This thread looks as though it's got a very limited lifespan unless people can both stay on topic and keep their handbags in the box room out of their reach. Especially the last part, kindly put them down.

/mod

deravarra

Considering it took 38 years for the truth to come out about bloody sunday, I will not be one bit surprised that the Israelis will come out with a Widgery-esque report, exhonerating its soldiers of any wrongdoing.

Nice to see some obvious JIDF chums here

halkar

How does Israel lie and try to twist is beyond me. There were 600 witnesses on the ship and not one have match Israeli stories so far.
Here is another witness story:

What is going on here.

deravarra

halkar wrote: »

How does Israel lie and try to twist is beyond me. There were 600 witnesses on the ship and not one have match Israeli stories so far.
Here is another witness story:

What is going on here.

Dont you know? Everyone but the Israeli supporters LIE

Manic Moran

halkar wrote: »

How does Israel lie and try to twist is beyond me. There were 600 witnesses on the ship and not one have match Israeli stories so far.
Here is another witness story:

What is going on here.

Mr Lin Washington, supposedly knowledgable about firearms, is an idiot.

Not least, I think it's a Mossberg 500, not a Remington 870.

That video has been gone over already, though the kicking is undisputed, the rest of the claim is completely inaccurate. I'm not accusing anyone lying, just of being more than willing to believe what they think they see, even in good faith.

NTM

Lemming

Manic Moran wrote: »

That video has been gone over already, though the kicking is undisputed, the rest of the claim is completely inaccurate.

Assuming the shotgun was being used for less-lethal ammunition, the other thing that would be undisputed is that the shotgun was discharged at what one could only describe as point-blank range judging by the kicking that went on prior to it.

How "less than lethal" are less lethal shotgun rounds at point blank range I wonder? i.e. at best, it would be an exceptionally callous act calculated to maim, if not kill "accidentally on purpose", somebody who has already been subdued (again judging from the kicking that got dished out prior)

Run_to_da_hills

This dose not help the situation at all.

Israel considers the Turkish Muslim charity IHH involved in organising a flotilla of aid ships to Gaza last month as a "terrorist organisation," public television said Wednesday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hR7eJYA8am1_-mgleFV2Ah9rxAxw

Manic Moran

that the shotgun was discharged at what one could only describe as point-blank range judging by the kicking that went on prior to it.

Although the discharching isn't shown on the video, my guess is that yes, it was discharged, but it was done prior to the kicking.

NTM

halkar

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This dose not help the situation at all.

Israel considers the Turkish Muslim charity IHH involved in organising a flotilla of aid ships to Gaza last month as a "terrorist organisation," public television said Wednesday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hR7eJYA8am1_-mgleFV2Ah9rxAxw

IHH is planning another trip to Gaza by end of July

Turkish flotilla organisers to send more Gaza ships.