Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

A Dub in Glasgo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This dose not help the situation at all.

Israel considers the Turkish Muslim charity IHH involved in organising a flotilla of aid ships to Gaza last month as a "terrorist organisation," public television said Wednesday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hR7eJYA8am1_-mgleFV2Ah9rxAxw

How very convienent of Israel

IrishTonyO

Iran is sending it's first ship next week. This could become a very serious situation very soon.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3906136,00.html

Palmach

halkar wrote: »

IHH is planning another trip to Gaza by end of July

Turkish flotilla organisers to send more Gaza ships.

Hopefully Israel will go in with all guns blazing this time.

Run_to_da_hills

halkar wrote: »

IHH is planning another trip to Gaza by end of July

Turkish flotilla organisers to send more Gaza ships.

They are now issuing travel warnings to various governments warning their citizens not to travel on flotillas

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178566

Lemming

Manic Moran wrote: »

Although the discharching isn't shown on the video, my guess is that yes, it was discharged, but it was done prior to the kicking.

NTM

My connection is playing silly buggers at the moment (or perhaps the stream is), so can't see clearly. But I seem to recall (from previous, better quality viewing) after the kicking, the soldier armed with the shotgun pointing it down at something on the deck (presumably the unfortunate getting beasted), and at one point racking it, and then shortly afterwards raising it to load another shell.

The action, assuming I have witnessed it correctly, would imply that the soldier had just fired a less-lethal round, thus requiring another be loaded. I am also working off the assumption of sincerely doubting that any competent (martially speaking) soldier would discharge their weapon and not reload it in short-order, knowing that they may require it at a moments notice and thus leave themselves vulnerable. I should imagine that reloading ones primary or secondary weapon is drilled into recruits as an automatic instinct. This video would appear to show a soldier doing precisely the opposite to the above assuming the round was discharged prior to the kicking; leaving me to either assume that he's inept - which I sincerely doubt - or he did indeed discharge a less-lethal round in what could only be termed as callous fashion with a complete disregard for proper use of said round, or life.

I could of course be completely wrong, and I'll leave it to those members of boards.ie with military experience to correct me.

Manic Moran

Lemming wrote: »

My connection is playing silly buggers at the moment (or perhaps the stream is), so can't see clearly. But I seem to recall (from previous, better quality viewing) after the kicking, the soldier armed with the shotgun pointing it down at something on the deck (presumably the unfortunate getting beasted), and at one point racking it, and then shortly afterwards raising it to load another shell.

Wrong sequence. He loads two or three rounds then racks it.

I am also working off the assumption of sincerely doubting that any competent (martially speaking) soldier would discharge their weapon and not reload it in short-order, knowing that they may require it at a moments notice and thus leave themselves vulnerable.

The magazine would hold, I believe, seven rounds. Assuming he loaded the two or three to bring it back up to full load, that leaves another four or five in the tube for immediate use.

I should imagine that reloading ones primary or secondary weapon is drilled into recruits as an automatic instinct.

Yes and no. Only 'automatic' when the last round is fired. Otherwise it's at your discretion.

I'll leave it to those members of boards.ie with military experience to correct me.

At your service

NTM

Run_to_da_hills

Turkey to break all ties with Israel after no apology or talk of compensation is made about the nine that were murdered.

This is proper order.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=130863&sectionid=351020204

PeakOutput

israel ahs announced an easing of its land blockade to allow greater flow of civilian goods into gaza

this sounds like good news and at least the dead eejits on the boat accomplished something

Run_to_da_hills

PeakOutput wrote: »

israel ahs announced an easing of its land blockade to allow greater flow of civilian goods into gaza

this sounds like good news and at least the dead eejits on the boat accomplished something

Its nothing more than a propaganda stint and has already been dismissed as inadequate.

The marine blockade will still hold, there is no chance in Hell of Israel allowing authorised humanitarian aid unsupervised into the port of Gaza.

BlaasForRafa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Turkey to break all ties with Israel after no apology or talk of compensation is made about the nine that were murdered.

This is proper order.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=130863&sectionid=351020204

Always with the Iranian governments opinion eh?

Its not really news anyway, http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/turkey-reportedly-freezes-defense-deals-with-israel-1.296733 , its just more bluster and posturing from the turks.

deravarra

Blaas, what connection do you have with Israel?

Manic Moran

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Always with the Iranian governments opinion eh?

Its not really news anyway, http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/turkey-reportedly-freezes-defense-deals-with-israel-1.296733 , its just more bluster and posturing from the turks.

There are a few dodgy reports in that article. The Merkava was only made available for export last week, and at that only the MkIV model in order to keep the production line open. Turkey had never agreed to buy MkIIIs. (Believe me, this would have hit the armour community, exporting Merks is noteworthy). The M60 upgrade program (Sabra) was completed in April. As of two days ago, the Turks announced an intention to take delivery of the remaining four Heron drones of their batch of ten.

I don't think anything important is going to get cancelled.

NTM

paulaa

A ship carrying 50 women and cancer equipment is due to leave Lebanon on Sunday for the Gaza Strip. Is Israel going to carry out another act of piracy ?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-to-un-we-reserve-the-right-to-stop-lebanon-gaza-bound-flotilla-1.297012

Sand

The naval blockade is still in place, so chances are they will enforce it. The activists will get their 15 minutes of fame, get to pretend theyre something theyre not and then get deported.

paulaa

At least the people willing to go on these ships are finally bringing world attention to the medieval situation in Gaza. I say good on them for doing something that their governments were unable or unwilling (or paid not to)to do.

Byron85

Sand wrote: »

The naval blockade is still in place, so chances are they will enforce it. The activists will get their 15 minutes of fame, get to pretend theyre something theyre not and then get deported.

Pretend what exactly???

Do you have any proof other than your own opinion?

Sand

@T.W.H Byron

Pretend what exactly???

Pretend this:

At least the people willing to go on these ships are finally bringing world attention to the medieval situation in Gaza. I say good on them for doing something that their governments were unable or unwilling (or paid not to)to do.

Whens the flotilla going to North Korea to relieve the human beings there? Oh, right.

Do you have any proof other than your own opinion?

What are you talking about?

Zulu

Sand wrote: »

Whens the flotilla going to North Korea to relieve the human beings there? Oh, right.

Aid flotillas need to be send to help every cause simultainously in order to be credible? :rolleyes:

Nodin

Zulu wrote: »

Aid flotillas need to be send to help every cause simultainously in order to be credible? :rolleyes:

...failure to be involved in every cause means causes one is involved in are somehow invalid?

Glenshane Pass

Whens the flotilla going to North Korea to relieve the human beings there? Oh, right.

If I win the lotto I will award you for the most off-topic post ever.

paulaa

Sand wrote: »

Whens the flotilla going to North Korea to relieve the human beings there? Oh, right.

You are so concerned about North Korea I suppose you are going to organise aid to them , right ?

Do you really think that everyone should just sit by and do nothing while a country who touts itself as the "only democracy in the Middle East " with the "most moral army in the world" literally gets away with murder, breaks every law that was put in place to prevent the atrocities of war that we saw in Germany, and laughs at the very concept of "Human Rights, except for it's own people ?

Sadly it seems that you do.

Sand

@Zulu

Aid flotillas need to be send to help every cause simultainously in order to be credible?

Nope, one can only do so much. However there seems to be a very selective choosing of causes to champion. Running an Israeli naval blockade is one thing. Trying to run a North Korean naval blockade would be quite another. I dont seriously expect anyone to try because it would be stupid. The North Korean would simply sink the ship with everyone on board. The end.

The activists get a good deal from the Israelis however. They get to act out that theyre going up against some nightmarish hateful imperialist regime, draw in a lot of "Good on ya", give a fiery impassioned speech, and then get sent home all expenses paid. Yeah, that showed them! Far more attractive a cause than the North Korean people.

@paulaa

You are so concerned about North Korea I suppose you are going to organise aid to them , right ?

No, the North Korean regime actually is a nightmarish totalarian regime and it would be pretty dangerous. However, I might be persuaded to get involved in the anti-Israeli movement. A lot of kudos, not much danger or risk. Sounds like a much better deal for me than trying to run a NK blockade.

Do you really think that everyone should just sit by and do nothing while a country who touts itself as the "only democracy in the Middle East " with the "most moral army in the world" literally gets away with murder, breaks every law that was put in place to prevent the atrocities of war that we saw in Germany, and laughs at the very concept of "Human Rights, except for it's own people ?

Sadly it seems that you do.

Thats a very broad question and I can already sense youve not much interest in actually discussing it, having arrived with conclusions already in place. But to clarify, the situation is more complex than you seem to accept. And whilst people may wish to help, there is a difference between constructive efforts aimed at relief, and showboating, or worse being puppeted by involved factions.

@Glenshane Pass

If I win the lotto I will award you for the most off-topic post ever.

Thanks.

@Nodin

...failure to be involved in every cause means causes one is involved in are somehow invalid?

Actually, its not about the causes.

I mentioned the Ken O'Keefe interview I heard on Newstalk previously, the ex US marine who renounced his citizenship (doesnt seem to have stopped him travelling however) and generally is involved in so many fights against "the man" - everything from Hawaian independance to Palestine, and he was passionate and angry about all of them. The only connection I could see between all these causes was Ken O'Keefe wanting to talk about them and tell everyone how unjust they all were and how passionate he was about all of them, and how right he was, how he had suffered, how he had stuck it to the man and how those who disagreed were so wrong. That seemed to be the only common link.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

I mentioned the Ken O'Keefe interview I heard on Newstalk previously, the ex US marine who renounced his citizenship (doesnt seem to have stopped him travelling however) and generally is involved in so many fights against "the man" - everything from Hawaian independance to Palestine, and he was passionate and angry about all of them. The only connection I could see between all these causes was Ken O'Keefe wanting to talk about them and tell everyone how unjust they all were and how passionate he was about all of them, and how right he was, how he had suffered, how he had stuck it to the man and how those who disagreed were so wrong. That seemed to be the only common link.

.....so (and this assumes your summary of Mr O'Keefe is spot on), because one individual is a publicity hound, all others involved in the same cause are of similar bent?

Sand

I didnt say he was a publicity hound - like I said he was very passionate about each and everyone of the causes. But despite the disparate causes which had attracted him, most of them involved talking up the offending government as something out of 1984 as opposed to the opposing government actually being something out of 1984.

IrishTonyO

Sand wrote: »

@Zulu


The activists get a good deal from the Israelis however. They get to act out that theyre going up against some nightmarish hateful imperialist regime, draw in a lot of "Good on ya", give a fiery impassioned speech, and then get sent home all expenses paid. Yeah, that showed them! Far more attractive a cause than the North Korean people.

Yes I am sure the people who were killed and beaten would agree with you. I am sure their families reckon they got a good deal. And the people whose personal property was stolen and or destroyed. The people who were kidnapped in International waters and forcefully taken to a country they did not wish to go would agree also. And North Korea has nothing to do with this thread, people can and do support certain causes, the fact that they are not involved in every cause does not lessen their cause. It is just an attempt by yourself to divert the topic of this thread. Start a North Korean thread if you wish.

Sand wrote: »

Actually, its not about the causes.

I mentioned the Ken O'Keefe interview I heard on Newstalk previously, the ex US marine who renounced his citizenship (doesnt seem to have stopped him travelling however) and generally is involved in so many fights against "the man" - everything from Hawaian independance to Palestine, and he was passionate and angry about all of them. The only connection I could see between all these causes was Ken O'Keefe wanting to talk about them and tell everyone how unjust they all were and how passionate he was about all of them, and how right he was, how he had suffered, how he had stuck it to the man and how those who disagreed were so wrong. That seemed to be the only common link.

You previously give out about people not supporting other causes as well, now you give out about one who does??? Obviously you don't know you own feelings on this matter

Sand

@IrishTonyO

Look, I am saddened and I have failed you. I attempted to communicate a point and I failed. I wont start from scratch but alter your perspective - re read my post. Note how I stress the selective championing of causes with reference to the dangers involved in crossing Israel (a liberal democracy) versus North Korea (an orwellian regime). Both are worthy causes and great kudos is won by activists in either, but one has a life expectancy measured in decades, the other in minutes.

Honestly, look at the list of great suffering you have listed for activists facing off against Israel. Its laughable when held against the treatment you would receive from North Korean security. The only people killed were those who attacked armed soldiers - the rest were all arrested and deported peacefully with no injuries and a great story to tell.

Israels great to be an activist against, its kinda like some evil monstrous imperialist regime, but its not. Its right smack in the sweet spot between risk and reward for activism.

deravarra

Sand wrote: »

Israels great to be an activist against, its kinda like some evil monstrous imperialist regime, but its not. Its right smack in the sweet spot between risk and reward for activism.

You're right! It's not some evil monstrous imperialist regime. It's an evil monstrous theocratic regime. But they want to pretend they're a democracy

paulaa

Sand wrote: »

@paulaa
No, the North Korean regime actually is a nightmarish totalarian regime and it would be pretty dangerous. However, I might be persuaded to get involved in the anti-Israeli movement. A lot of kudos, not much danger or risk. Sounds like a much better deal for me than trying to run a NK blockade.

At least 9 people lost their lives in the last flotilla and over 40 were injured, I wouldn't say there is "not much danger or risk ". Israel's shoot to kill policy is well known. However these Lebanese women are willing to risk the dangers to highlight the illegal siege of Gaza and the miserable and humiliating conditions that these people have lived under for nearly 4 years. They will be called all kinds of names, and manufactured links to terrorists organisations, etc, etc will be spread around about them by the hasbara crowd.

Sand wrote: »

Thats a very broad question and I can already sense youve not much interest in actually discussing it, having arrived with conclusions already in place. But to clarify, the situation is more complex than you seem to accept. And whilst people may wish to help, there is a difference between constructive efforts aimed at relief, and showboating, or worse being puppeted by involved factions.

The situation is not that difficult to understand and I have been following this particular theatre for over 30 years.
The world needed to be made aware of what was happening in Gaza. We have listened to the very slick Israeli PR machine for years, it's time that the other side of the story got out and that governments, particularly the US and European countries were forced to act to put an end to this terror. If ordinary people can do this then good for them and I support them wholeheartedly.

Peace and Human Rights organisations have tried for years to highlight the situation and got nowhere. Can you think of another way to go about it ?

Run_to_da_hills

The IDF are nothing but a shower of thieves according to this article.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=131159&sectionid=351020202

deravarra

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The IDF are nothing but a shower of thieves according to this article.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=131159&sectionid=351020202

"Californian activist Kathy Sheetz has alleged that she has been charged more than $1,000 in transactions from vending machines in Israel since June 6" - should be easy enough to verify. Im just thinking that certain people who like blaas will either defend or deny it