Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Deep Easterly

PeakOutput wrote: »

in your opinion

in my opinion i have no problem with israel inspecting aid that is going into a country that repeatedly attacks them

In your opinion.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

The Israelis wanted to verify what was on board. The 'innocent humanitarian activists'* wouldn't agree to this.

Reports stated that the IDF opened fire immediately, and boarded via helicoptor. I'm sure you're more than keen to swallow Israeli propaganda.

Glenshane Pass

Ben Hadad wrote: »

It's common knowledge that forum boards are used by media groups and in this case probably intelligence related agencys to conduct propaganda in order to weaken or disprove any negative related discussion against that body, or nationality of that body.

It is no coincidence that many people who are vehemently defending this Israeli action were up at the crack of dawn to post very positive posts on this subject.

Irish people have historically sided with Palistine mainly due to empathy as we to, although to a far less extent, were subjugated by a larger neighbour, and also because of our morality, to be easily able to decipher between right and wrong.

What Israel have done today is obviously wrong to anyone with a sense of morality and I would go as far to say that anyone who defends this Israeli action is ammoral.

I agree fully, just check visitor messages between Makikomi and FlutteringBatman this morning.

partyguinness

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Well, if ONE "expert" says so, then it must be true.

"Tel Aviv, Israel’s business and defence centre, remains the most threatened city in the world, said one expert. “There are more missiles per square foot targeting Tel Aviv than any other city,” he said."

Now, if that were true, why do you think that is?

That's hilarious...one expert quoted in the "Times" of all papers. And how in Gods name would this "expert" know this

Did he go around and conduct a survey....:rolleyes:

Maybe he is including stone throwing 12 yr old in this calculations...

Perhaps he would be better off passing on his/her info to the Israelis and they can remove the threats....LOL

alastair

prinz wrote: »

None of which of course impacts at all on the right to 'protect' yourself by extending jurisdiction. None of the above indicates that action is to be taken against non-signatories?

I'm sure you're standing strongly behind Iran's support of Hezbullah and de-facto extention of it's juristiction to 'protect' itself from the threat of israel then? 'Cause those vague references to the protection principle without any frame of reasonable justification tend to end up biting you on the arse.

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

in your opinion

in my opinion i have no problem with israel inspecting aid that is going into a country that repeatedly attacks them

No, under international law, they boarded a ship in international water, which they had no right to do so, and as such are pirates. Again, Israel was the aggressor.

PeakOutput

Ben Hadad wrote: »

It's common knowledge that forum boards are used by media groups and in this case probably intelligence related agencys to conduct propaganda in order to weaken or disprove any negative related discussion against that body, or nationality of that body.

would you care to name the posters you think are working for the israelis and posting on boards.ie? :rolleyes:

it is far more likely that on a monday people are arrivng at work from 6am -9am and logging onto their computer

Ms.Odgeynist

prinz wrote: »

The Israelis wanted to verify what was on board. The 'innocent humanitarian activists'* wouldn't agree to this.



*activists by the way who don't give a toss in the world about human dignity.

They scored an own goal Prinz.
They had no right to board a vessel on the high seas. It was an illegal manouevre and the 'innocent activists' had every right to defend against it.

Can I take it from your tone that you don't believe the activists were innocent?
Are you privy to some information that the rest of us aren't.
Perhaps in Israel hearsay passes for evidence but in the West we like to convict before classing someone as guilty.....don't we???

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

No, you only see the world in blue and white. Why can't you just admit that it was wrong to shoot dead humanitarian activists in international waters?

Is it unfortunate that people are dead - YES
Does it seem like trigger happy IDF - YES
Should people be held to account - YES
Should Israel be held to account - YES
Was it illegal to board these ships? - NO
Are the "humanitarians" completely faultless - NO

Deep Easterly

prinz wrote: »

The Israelis wanted to verify what was on board. The 'innocent humanitarian activists'* wouldn't agree to this.

Well in that case, they deserve to be slaughtered :rolleyes:

PeakOutput

wes wrote: »

No, under international law, they boarded a ship in international water, which they had no right to do so, and as such are pirates. Again, Israel was the aggressor.

this has already been covered, it is your opinion

we can agree to disagree if you like, the international water angle is getting tedious

dan719

partyguinness wrote: »

and of course poor old little Israel is nothing but an innocent victim against nasty Arabs 'mentalists and bleeding heart western liberals....

Mate, your views are just as blinkered and idiotic as the people you castigate in your first paragraph. You are no better.

Would you mind pointing out where I said that Israel were not to blame? I said I don't blame them for stepping outside what would be considered decent behaviour. I never said they were not culpable for the situation they find themselves in. I do find it hilarious that "bleeding heart liberals" as you call them align themselves with Arab terrorists though. Someday someone will explain that to me.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Reports stated that the IDF opened fire immediately, and boarded via helicoptor. I'm sure you're more than keen to swallow Israeli propaganda.

There was no need for this convoy to be boarded at all had they docked and unloaded cargo as and where requested.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

The Israelis wanted to verify what was on board. The 'innocent humanitarian activists'* wouldn't agree to this.



*activists by the way who don't give a toss in the world about human dignity.

Israel didn't want to verify - it wanted to retain control over the terms and manner of the aid. It had already been established by neutral arbitrators that the aid didn't pose a threat to Israel. The Israeli list of proscribed aid hasn't been changed.

Nice to see you've met all the activists and can form such an informed opinion.

Villain

prinz wrote: »

There was no need for this convoy to be boarded at all had they docked and unloaded cargo as and where requested.

The blockade is illegal the Aid boats have the right to sail to Gaza- FACT

Selected

calex71 wrote: »

But let's get real here, the organizers of this flotilla had to have known something like this would happen. If they didn't then they are idiots.

If internationally organised humanitarian relief efforts are adjudged acts of idiocy, then what is competent, communal responsibility?

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

this has already been covered, it is your opinion

we can agree to disagree if you like, the international water angle is getting tedious

Again, it is not in my opinion, what Israel has done violates international law. Israel is at fault, there blockade is illegal, there actions are illegal, there murder of innocent people was illegal. They don't have a leg to stand on with there actions plain and simple. They attacked the boat, with gun ho murderers, and this has been exposed to the world. No amount of obfuscation will change this.

dan719

Ben Hadad wrote: »

It's common knowledge that forum boards are used by media groups and in this case probably intelligence related agencys to conduct propaganda in order to weaken or disprove any negative related discussion against that body, or nationality of that body.

It is no coincidence that many people who are vehemently defending this Israeli action were up at the crack of dawn to post very positive posts on this subject.

You have two posts? And you are accusing regular posters of being in the pay of Israeli intelligence services? Are you serious?

the_syco

Memnoch wrote: »

The oppressed become oppressor (in fairness this happened a long time ago).

The oppressed became the oppressor, after being attacked on all sdes. The only good defense is a good offensive.

I'm just surprised that it has taken them so long to start doing this (boarding on-coming vessels: not kiling people, though)? It's not as if Israel gives a sh|te what the West thinks of their policies.

Zulu wrote: »

Today Isreali commandos stormed an aid ship in international waters, and slaughtered civilians aboard.

What countrys flag is this aid ship flying? Was it the Red Cross, or not?

Villain wrote: »

I just hope Obama takes a strong stance.

Obama will do f**k all. Remember his comments about closing Camp Xray, and how he now toes the line. He won't do anything.

=-=

I'm not really going to believe either side atm. Will wait until the dust settles a bit.

PeakOutput

Villain wrote: »

The blockade is illegal the Aid boats have the right to sail to Gaza- FACT

to dock in gaza they have to pass threw israeli waters

2kool4skool

PeakOutput wrote: »

apparently there is now video on news stations of at least one protester attacking at least one soldier with a wooden or metal bar as he boards the boat

Is it the case that the Israelis have released this section of video of the attack on the ships. If so where is the rest of the video? Do you honestly think that if any other protestors were attacking the commandos, that the Israelis (who had helicopters as well as RIBs) would not have released that section also? Israel cut off communications with the ships for a reason and will remove all recordings from the survivors that they can find before deporting them.

The suggestion that in any way the organisers of the aid convoy were seeking a massacre is just sad. It is akin to saying that the organisers of every civil rights march that has been attacked over the decades were looking to have their marchers beaten or killed and therefore should have lain there in abject submission.

As for the suggestion that the Israeli actions were justified in some way because of a reasonable suspicion, this is simply untrue as Israel was well aware through its agents of what was loaded on the ships. Even if they were entitled to board, is it to say that the people on the ship were not entitled to use non-lethal force to defend themselves without being massacred?

Let the people who did this and those who rush to defend Israel at every opportunity stop and think for a minute, or will the apologists simply wait for whatever version and whatever snippets of video that Israel decides to release and then parrot that version?

Glenshane Pass

Prinz you have so far failed to provide even a dreamy suggestion as to were possible weapons could come from?
Its a red herring and both you and Israel know that, in fact I don't think even Israel is trying to argue that. Even without a military background and experience in international relations, none of that would prevent a person make a commonsense judgement, that its laughable to say the least, the suggestion the the aid flotilla could be carrying weapons.

Augmerson

prinz wrote: »

Is it unfortunate that people are dead - YES
Does it seem like trigger happy IDF - YES
Should people be held to account - YES
Should Israel be held to account - YES
Was it illegal to board these ships? - NO
Are the "humanitarians" completely faultless - NO

What right had Israel to board these ships in international waters in the context of international law?
How are the "humanitarians" at fault for being boarded, attacked and killed?

partyguinness

prinz wrote: »

Is it unfortunate that people are dead - YES
Does it seem like trigger happy IDF - YES
Should people be held to account - YES
Should Israel be held to account - YES
Was it illegal to board these ships? - NO
Are the "humanitarians" completely faultless - NO

Do you think that Israel should know better?
Do you think Israel acted proportionately?

Then again whether it is stroming a humanitarian boat or bombing the crap out of Gaza, it's a lot easier to do than working on a peace process or opening meaningful dialogue.

Villain

PeakOutput wrote: »

to dock in gaza they have to pass threw israeli waters

Yes and any blockade is illegal

alastair

PeakOutput wrote: »

this has already been covered, it is your opinion

we can agree to disagree if you like, the international water angle is getting tedious

Tedious it may be, but illegal it is - the international law is there for everyone to read.

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/closindx.htm

Nijmegen

Over lunch I re-watched some of the videos on a bigger TV. The Israeli troops were getting their heads kicked in when they landed - one fellow had a solder down in a doorway and was beating the head off of him with a metal bar.

There was no shooting happening at this point.

I daresay what happened was:

1. A soldier lost his rag with someone kicking his head in and blew him away.

2. A "protestor" get a weapon off of a soldier and things kicked off when either a. The Israeli's saw this and shot him or b. The protestor opened fire

3. In the struggles, a weapon went off by accident and it kicked off from there

Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.

Mr.Micro

International Law, rules of engagement, humanitarian aid, human rights do not apply to Israel. It does as it likes and cares not. No surprise though its what we have come to expect from this rogue state.

dlofnep

the_syco wrote: »

Obama will do f**k all. Remember his comments about closing Camp Xray, and how he now toes the line. He won't do anything..

Correct. His comments will be something along the lines supporting Israels right to defend itself, followed by a "The United States and Israel are strong allies" to re-assure the pro-Israeli lobby.

wes

Nijmegen wrote: »

Frankly, when armed men drop from the sky you don't start beating them with metal bars, the UN charter of human rights or rolled up copies of naval law.

The armed men were pirates, and even if you version of events are true, Israel is still in the wrong.