Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

jimmycrackcorm

So, exactly how many Israeli soldiers died in this fight?

digme

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So, exactly how many Israeli soldiers died in this fight?

6 million, oh no that's been revised to a few hundred thousand.

Augmerson

prinz wrote: »

(a) Countries have the right to act, even in international waters. That much is sure

(b) Israel made it clear this convoy would not be getting through. Pretty much the same as a cop shouting 'stop or I shoot' and someone keeping on running.

That much is not true. That much is wrong. Israel acted out of total disregard for international law and the safety of the people aboard those ships. Oh sure, Israel has the right to act whatever way it wants as long as it has the US backing it, but there is no moral, legal or ethical justification for what they have just done and I'm a little saddened to hear you take this line because having read previous posts on other threads I understood you to be quite intelligent and reasonable but trying to pretend that Israel has the right to do this is laughable.

partyguinness

Nijmegen wrote: »

As has been previously stated, the Israeli's have every right to run a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza. For a parallel example, see Cuba.

Unless you have access to some special info from the rest of us you cannot make such outrageous statements without any proof or source...you should retract it if you wish to keep any level of respect.

Prinz...I cant believe you thanked that post..I thought better of you..or you are just a "Thanks" button whore...;)

Deep Easterly

prinz wrote: »

...and if the convoy had docked as requested none of them would be dead, there would be no situation and we'd be discussing something else.

If the IDF had not illegally boarded the ship, none of those innocent people would be dead. What exactly is your point?

Glenshane Pass

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So, exactly how many Israeli soldiers died in this fight?

With the revelations of dead aid workers, lots I hope.

Wolfe Tone

CabbageThing wrote: »

Bring back Hitler

No.

Zulu

digme wrote: »

6 million, oh sh!t thats been revised to a few hundred thousand.

Thats a lie. You couldn't fit that many marines onto the boat.
Shennagans.

prinz

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Who in the right mind would embrace that? Why hand the aid to the very ones who target ambulances, aid workers, journalists? Why hand the aid to the very ones who have destroyed Gaza?Again, whataboutery from you.

How is that whataboutery? Me thinks you don't understand that concept just yet. Anywho, anyone with a real interest in getting aid into Gaza would embrace that, since that is the only way any aid is actually going to get there rightly or wrongly. These ships were never going to be docking in Gaza.

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Israel ****ed up. They are murderers, why are you defending them, what is your motivation?

... I have said Israel screwed up. I have said it seems there was an abuse of force and an over reaction. I have no motivation whatsoever, what's yours?

prinz

Deep Easterly wrote: »

If the IDF had not illegally boarded the ship, none of those innocent people would be dead. What exactly is your point?

(a) they didn't illegally board the ship. (b) if the ships had docked where asked to do so none of those people would be dead either.

Deep Easterly

partyguinness wrote: »

"Concerned Israeli IDF unit brutally attacked by blood thirsty Aid workers"

Yet not a single soilder died by these 'blood thirsty Aid workers'.

We really live in strange, twisted, dangerous world of spin that will do anything to justify the murder of innocents.

Ben Hadad

prinz wrote: »

... I have said Israel screwed up. I have said it seems there was an abuse of force and an over reaction. I have no motivation whatsoever, what's yours?

Our motivation is morality

prinz

Augmerson wrote: »

I'm a little saddened to hear you take this line because having read previous posts on other threads I understood you to be quite intelligent and reasonable but trying to pretend that Israel has the right to do this is laughable.

I am just not going to jump on a bandwagon and repeat false claims. Israel does a lot wrong. I have been boycotting Israeli goods for a long time. I always suspected that they'd pull a stunt like this, why expect any more tbh, they have always shown themselves to do whatever suits themselves.

partyguinness wrote: »

Prinz...I cant believe you thanked that post..I thought better of you..or you are just a "Thanks" button whore...;)

I thanked it, because it's true.

omega666

Absolutely horrific attack on a civilian aid ship by what supposed to be a civilized Country.
How can they expect to be respected when they keep doing stuff like this.
The scary thing is this is a country with supposed nuclear weapons at its disposal, a trigger happy country that surely
Is much more of a threat to everyone than the likes of Iran or North Korea.
If they cannot control their own army how can they be trusted?

Has there been any eye witness reports from the people on the ship yet on what really happened as we all know by now not a word
can be believed that comes from the IDF.

Deep Easterly

prinz wrote: »

(a) they didn't illegally board the ship. (b) if the ships had docked where asked to do so none of those people would be dead either.

All so very simple isn't it? :rolleyes:

prinz

Ben Hadad wrote: »

Our motivation is morality

As is mine. I believe it to be morally wrong not to take a balanced appraoch to the whole Israel situation.

prinz

Deep Easterly wrote: »

All so very simple isn't it? :rolleyes:

It would have been very simple to avoid bloodshed yes.

Selkies

wes wrote: »

No, they didn't expect the IDF to go on a killing spree, actually. So you suicide by cop claim is a disgusting attempt to excuse Israels murderous actions. Israel is to blame for this, and not the innocent people aboard the flotilla, who were attacking by a bunch of murderous pirates in uniform.

What did they expect exactly? They were told they would be boarded when they set off, they were told they would be boarded when they got close to gaza waters if they didn't stop, they didn't stop, they were boarded.
Somehow 2 commandos got injured, I can only assume that they were attacked.
What did they expect that attacking a commando would achieve?

I don't think the goal was simply to provide aid, their intention was almost purely political and I think this video backs up that theory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk

Again I ask, what were they expecting.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

(a) they didn't illegally board the ship.

Yes, they did. They illegally boarded the ship.

prinz wrote: »

(b) if the ships had docked where asked to do so none of those people would be dead either.

Israel had no right to force the ships to dock. Civilians are dead because Israeli soldiers killed them. Now stop with your vomit-inducing apologies.

Fuhrer

Selkies wrote: »

What did they expect that attacking a commando would achieve?

Stopping him from gunning down the unarmed I suppose

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

(b) if the ships had docked where asked to do so none of those people would be dead either.

Aye


And if they had just stayed home and not bothered with the Aid no one would even have got wet.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

It would have been very simple to avoid bloodshed yes.

Right - So if a ship destined for France tomorrow is pulled over by the Irish navy, outside of Irish Waters, is told go to an Irish port where they will be detained in a detention camp - and when they refused, 19 were killed by the Irish navy, it would be justified?

Nijmegen

Fuhrer wrote: »

Stopping him from gunning down the unarmed I suppose

They opened fire after being attacked.

Any military unit on the high seas boarding a ship for any police actionr easons is armed. The Irish navy is when it boards vessels.

The difference is, the Irish navy rarely has to open fire because the people on these boats are a lot smarter than to attack armed military or police personnel doing their job.

When you're under arrest, you're under arrest, no matter if you disagree with the reasons for it. If he's got a gun and I've got a metal bar, his law is all that matters.

Deep Easterly

prinz wrote: »

It would have been very simple to avoid bloodshed yes.

So the message is, if you don't comply, we will kill you, is that it?

Eliot Rosewater

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Who in the right mind would embrace that? Why hand the aid to the very ones who target ambulances, aid workers, journalists? Why hand the aid to the very ones who have destroyed Gaza?

This attitude is, in my opinion, one of the reasons the Israel-Palestine conflict will never be solved. Pro-Palestine supporters here take every opportunity to berate Israeli without any attempt to try and understand why they have done what they have done, or to try and reconcile with them. I think we're all in agreement here that the deaths of so many people is a tragedy. The numbers involved would seem to indicate an over-reaction on the part of the Israels. But at the same time, the situation is not as simplistic as the Palestinian supporters would have us believe. It is not as simple as "Israel did murder!!" There is a host of complexities involved, such as the fact that the flotilla was warned in advance. Such as the fact that Israel must maintain a blockade because Hamas keep lobbing rockets at buses.

The real truth of this situation lies, unsurprisingly, somewhere in the middle ground, away from the gross and intellectually insulting simplifications of either side. But no doubt, my pursuance of said middle-ground has already me labeled as an "Israeli apologist" or other some silly term. Perhaps this debate is a reflection of the conflict as a whole. Until such a time as ye get off yeer high-horses and get out of the trenches it won't be solved. And resorting to "look what they did" is only a red herring.

Selkies

Fuhrer wrote: »

Stopping him from gunning down the unarmed I suppose

If they had already opened fire how on earth did they manage to get anywhere near elite commando unit?

Selected

CabbageThing wrote: »

Bring back Hitler

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No.

Mussolini then?

No matter - enough is enough - something has to be done.

eoin5

Nijmegen wrote: »

I saw Israeli troops land. No gunfire. Then they were laid into with metal bars. One Israeli soldier is in a doorway on Sky News' footage, down with one hand propping himself up, the other shielding himself from the blows.

If I was him, I'd have blown that fellow away before he could either get my weapon off of me or kill me.

These protestors were not peaceful.

They were looking for a fight.

They might not have been peaceful but if foreign armed military land on your boat in international waters when you haven't done anything wrong then I'd say you've every right to defend yourself aggressively. If it wasn't in international waters things might have been less clear.

partyguinness

prinz wrote: »

(a) they didn't illegally board the ship. (b) if the ships had docked where asked to do so none of those people would be dead either.

So basically, the protestors got what they deserved/asked for.

From Israels point of view, there was a way and a means of handling this. The diplmatic cotton glove way, for instance, they could have have just blocked the boat and refused to let them dock...or doing what they did. You cannot defend it in all seriousness. They have just made martyrs of the dead and added more ammo to throw back at them.

It's like opening fire at a hippy march or trying to defend the British Army on Blooding Sunday....they fcuked up, simple as.

But it's not like they care..right?

You keep saying it's not illegal, as a matter of interest, where is it LEGAL to board another vessel (private property) in international waters and kill passengers.

Deep Easterly

Nijmegen wrote: »

his law is all that matters.

No, it is not. The law is mearly a concept. Human dignity and the right to live and help others who cannot help themselves is what matters, regardless of what any law says. There is more to life than the law.