Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Selkies

2kool4skool wrote: »

Nijmegan, I have to say that I find your comments awesomely uninformed, wrong and totally biased. Look at the video and hear the gunshots from the boats before any Israeli lands on the ship. Listen to the commentators on board. Are you being given the basis for your version from the IDF or from where?

Can you link to the video you are refering to?

alastair

prinz wrote: »

If that's the case then they should have docked at an Israeli port and unloaded cargo as requested.

Says who? The flotilla are perfectly entitled to ignore any offer that Israel might make - even if they belived that theor offer was credible (which there's good reason to believe it wasn't - given the ongoing Israeli list of proscribed aid)

prinz wrote: »

It's not, but it is one that has worked in the past for boardings at sea, outside of territorial waters.

Each case on it's merits - and there's little merit in this case.

partyguinness

alastair wrote: »

The international law allows for boarding of ships engaged in piracy. No precedent there.

And how well the Russians were able to board a pirate ship armed to the hilt, detain the ship and no mention on fatalities (ok it is a Russian navy source) but Israel cldnt handle a few Aid workers with metal bars and timber boards....

Zulu

Nijmegen wrote: »

No, but I suppose those rockets that land in Israel materialise out of thin air?

You'll have more joy finding weapons of mass destruction in Bagdad, than you will finding rockets on the aid ship stormed by commandos this morning.

Augmerson

prinz wrote: »

If that's the case then they should have docked at an Israeli port and unloaded cargo as requested.

So that they Israeli's can continue to let a trickle of aid into Gaza? The whole point of this mission was to get more aid into Gaza by going directly to Gaza, even the UN is saying not enough aid is getting in from Israel's side. The Israeli's are letting in about 15,000 tonnes which is falling very short of what is desperately needed and I believe the UN has said something like 50,000 tonnes of aid is needed.

Nijmegen

Zulu wrote: »

You'll have more joy finding weapons of mass destruction in Bagdad, than you will finding rockets on the aid ship stormed by commandos this morning.

That's not the point. A blockade is a blockade or there is no point in having one.

partyguinness

Nijmegen wrote: »

The question purports that Israel has nobody to defend itself against because it is at war with no state.

I would counter by saying that you don't argue with a rocket that lands on your house, much as it is foolish to argue with an armed soldier who lands on your deck.

You stated earlier that Israel was blocking the importation of arms (by the Aid workers) into Gaza akin to the US in Cuba.

I asked you for a source and you have refused to provide one.

You have no credibilty with sweeping and ill informed statements.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

No, many have made vague claims about the UNCLOS etc

Nothing vaugue in international law linked to in black and white.

Nijmegen

partyguinness wrote: »

You stated earlier that Israel was blocking the importation of arms (by the Aid workers) into Gaza akin to the US in Cuba.

I asked you for a source and you have refused to provide one.

You have no credibilty with sweeping and ill informed statements.

Israel is blocking all imports to Gaza because that's how you keep up a blockade to keep arms out. You send all traffic to control points.

I never said these people were carrying arms.

prinz

alastair wrote: »

Says who? The flotilla are perfectly entitled to ignore any offer that Israel might make - even if they belived that theor offer was credible (which there's good reason to believe it wasn't - given the ongoing Israeli list of proscribed aid).

Yes perfectly entitled to, once you accept the consequences.

Augmerson wrote: »

So that they Israeli's can continue to let a trickle of aid into Gaza? The whole point of this mission was to get more aid into Gaza by going directly to Gaza, even the UN is saying not enough aid is getting in from Israel's side. The Israeli's are letting in about 15,000 tonnes which is falling very short of what is desperately needed and I believe the UN has said something like 50,000 tonnes of aid is needed.

Better some aid getting through than none at all. As for the UN and aid in Gaza perhaps you should note that Hamas are taking first dibs on whatever aid does get through, leaving the worse affected civilian population worse off, so hold them to account too.

bamboozle

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Shame on israel.

Thats all I have to say. Everything else is being debated thoroughly here already.

+1, school yard bully, will be interesting to see how Obama responds to this.

between irish passports being used by their assassins and this attack, i would be quite happy to see the ambassador here hauled in front of our government to explain their actions.

Selkies

Augmerson wrote: »

So that they Israeli's can continue to let a trickle of aid into Gaza? The whole point of this mission was to get more aid into Gaza by going directly to Gaza, even the UN is saying not enough aid is getting in from Israel's side. The Israeli's are letting in about 15,000 tonnes which is falling very short of what is desperately needed and I believe the UN has said something like 50,000 tonnes of aid is needed.

Wow that's horrible, the can you link for that?

alastair

Nijmegen wrote: »

Israel is blocking all imports to Gaza because that's how you keep up a blockade to keep arms out. You send all traffic to control points.

I never said these people were carrying arms.

It's a blockade to keep pencils out. Just like Cuba.

Eliot Rosewater

Nody wrote: »

All ships where inspected several times over before they left; no weapons where found at any time; how about YOU link a claim to back up this for a change? I mean not even the Israeli are claiming this yet you know it; I'm impressed.

I never suggested that this incident was to do with arms smuggling; in fact, I'd be extremely surprised if it was. I was talking about Israel's general policy of blockading. If the Israelis didn't blockade Gaza there would probably be an increase in rocket attacks. Israel's first duty of care is to its own citizens, and unfortunately this duty involves causing an immense amount of hardship to Gaza residents.

Nody wrote: »

Lets see; who killed aid workers, palestinian army or Israeli army? Hmm, Israel, ok...

This is just emotive language which is riddled with the tendency to blame one side and one side alone that I was on about. I could easily mention the time Hamas bombed a school bus, but I'm not interested in emotional attacks.

Nody wrote: »

You are right; there can't be any reason to blame Israel for this.

You see, I never said Israel was free of blame. But because of your bias you see anyone advocating the middle ground as an "Israeli apologist". All you've done is reemphasized the point of mine that you were responding to.

wes

Nijmegen wrote: »

That's not the point. A blockade is a blockade or there is no point in having one.

The blockade is illegal. Which you seem to constantly forget.

2kool4skool

RasTa wrote: »

Here is a video, you can still hear the gunshots before they board. Spin this one Prinz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U

Sorry not sure if this link will work now but Rasta has it on his comment at 14:08 today in any event. Also if you search in Youtube for Israeli attack ship, it will come up.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

Yes perfectly entitled to, once you accept the consequences.

Sounds like any bully's rationalisation. But at least it's honest. I'm guessing that the Israelis just need to suck up the Gazan rockets as a consequence of their own actions?

prinz wrote: »

Better some aid getting through than none at all. As for the UN and aid in Gaza perhaps you should note that Hamas are taking first dibs on whatever aid does get through, leaving the worse affected civilian population worse off, so hold them to account too.

I'm no flag waver for Hamas. But the people there did vote them in, and I don't hear many in Gaza begging the flotilla to sod off.

Fuhrer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

alastair

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

If the Israelis didn't blockade Gaza there would probably be an increase in rocket attacks.

Because pencils, chickpeas and shoes are well known as duel-purpose technology?

prinz

alastair wrote: »

Sounds like any bully's rationalisation.

If by bully boy you mean the legitimate forces of law and order then you might be right.

Nijmegen

wes wrote: »

The blockade is illegal. Which you seem to constantly forget.

Every blockade is illegal. For the Israeli people, allowing weapons into Gaza to be fired into Israel is unacceptable. And they have the bigger military. Sword v Pen.

jank

prinz wrote: »

They were going to be deported in keeping with the travel restrictions on Gaza, not "detained in detention camps". If Ireland and France were effectively in a state of war then yeah the Irish navy would be able to board the vessel to conduct a search, or detain the vessel pending search and any casualties caused by resisting that lawful action would also, while regretful, be justified.

Hold on there sunshine, weren't you claiming that Israel and Turkey were staunch allies only some months back but now you try and justify what happened today because they are basicly "at war" with each other. Can't have it both ways but you do like making stuff up dont you!!

Here is that post
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62300401&postcount=185

prinz wrote: »

this proves you have no idea about the region's geopolitical situation. :pac:. Turkey is as close to an Israeli ally as you can find in the Middle East, and has been for a long, long time.

Israel supplies Turkey with billions of dollars worth of weaponry and know-how.

Israel and Turkey have a free trade agreement worth further billions.

Turkey is also the base for nuclear weapons provided by the US.

Israeli and Turkish intelligence agencies cooperate and pool resources.

Oh and not to mention Turkey has already declared neutrality in any matters between Iran and Israel.....hmm.


Try again chief :pac: Unless the Iranians plan on tunnelling their way to Syria there isn't a hope!

Way to go to make yourself look foolish. I think you are the one that has no clue on the regions geopolitics.

prinz

jank wrote: »

Hold on there sunshine, weren't you claiming that Israel and Turkey were staunch allies only some months back but now you try and justify what happened today because they are basicly "at war" with each other. Can't have it both ways but you do like making stuff up dont you!! Way to go to make yourself look foolish. I think you are the one that has no clue on the regions geopolitics.

Where did I claim Turkey and Israel were at war? This is what happens when you jump in with two feet.

jank

In other news free speech in the west bank is non-existent.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7128835.ece

wes

Nijmegen wrote: »

Every blockade is illegal. For the Israeli people, allowing weapons into Gaza to be fired into Israel is unacceptable. And they have the bigger military. Sword v Pen.

Yes, and I was just pointing our the constantly ignored fact of Israel illegal actions. What there doing to the Palestinians, makes them no better than Hamas. What Israel is doing is unacceptable. When they stop stealing land, then they may have a leg to stand on, when it comes to there claims, but as it stand they don't have one, and the IDF have been again been exposed to the world as murderers.-

Glenshane Pass

Prinz you're bull****ting again mate.

Gaza perhaps you should note that Hamas are taking first dibs on whatever aid does get through, leaving the worse affected civilian population worse off

This, is false. So where do you propose Hamas is taking this aid? They turning it into weapons?

partyguinness

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Looking at it from a logical point of view, if the ships were allowed get nearer to Gaza they could have transferred things to smaller fast boats to smuggle into Gaza.

What has the boat some sort of Kling On cloaking device???

Would have been so difficult for Israel with all it's military technology to patrol and watch that one boat with all?

alastair

Fuhrer wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

They let 'rioters' on the ship?

I note that one guy is using a giant pencil to attack a commando.

jank

prinz wrote: »

Where did I claim Turkey and Israel were at war? This is what happens when you jump in with two feet.

Have a look at YOUR analogy? The ireland france one.

Sucks being caught by the balls doesn't it?

Selected

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Israel's first duty of care is to its own citizens, and unfortunately this duty involves causing an immense amount of hardship to Gaza residents.

'First duty of care' - what a laugh - 'Only duty of care'