Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

partyguinness

prinz wrote: »

The UNCLOS also replaces the previous four conventions. Once the UNCLOS came along the previous conventions are rather meaningless.

Ah come on...give it up already. You are clinging to the notion that Israel might have been technically justified to board the boat.

Be a man and admit it. Israel dont give a crap about international laws or conventions and they will do what they want and this is just another episode.

You cannot justify or defend what they did.

Selected

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm not justifying them personally - I'm trying to show how the Israeli government justifies them and, hence, how these events are caused.
So, we agree that this morning's events were caused by the Israeli governments' justification of the use of deadly force against unarmed humanitarian civilians in their defence of Israel?

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

You're trying to view this incident in isolation, when I don't think it can be.

This event occurred in international waters and is a breach of international law - I would say that this is a rare occurrence and cannot be construed part of wider conflict. This is an indefensible attack on an international humanitarian relief effort.

prinz

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Give it a rest mate, you have had your arse slapped on this one...

:rolleyes:

alastair wrote: »

Well - Cowen isn't in a position of responsibility to declare it illegal - that would be down to the UN reading of the situation, which Cowen is reflecting. It's pretty clear that he's 'describing' it as illegal though, eh?

Which brings us back to the post I was replying to, which said something about governments etc all over Europe declaring it illegal. No one has so far. Lots of concern, ambiguity etc.

partyguinness wrote: »

Ah come on...give it up already. You are clingly to the notion that Israel might have been technically justified to board the boat..

They were justified in boarding that boat. Whether they were justifed in killing those people is another issue. Like I said seems to me like over the top force was used and soldiers got trigger happy.

partyguinness wrote: »

Be a man and admit it. Israel dont give a crap about international laws or conventions and they will do what they want and this is just another episode..

Yep, you're right. I have frequently said as much.

partyguinness wrote: »

You cannot justify or defend what they did.

Depends what you mean. If you mean boarding the ship, then yes I can. If you mean using legitimate force then yes I can, if you mean some IDF soldier decided to shoot up some people who were posing no threat, then no obviously I cannot.

partyguinness

Selected wrote: »

This event occurred in international waters and is a breach of international law - I would say that this is a rare occurrence and cannot be construed part of wider conflict. This is an indefensible attack on an international humanitarian relief effort.

Then again, like the US and school bullies, Israel are very good at attacking those that cant fight back. Bully the smaller weaker guy that cant fight back.

IrishTonyO

prinz wrote: »

Who has described it as illegal?

Mr Cowen said he believed Israel’s blockade of humanitarian assistance to Gaza was illegal under international law.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0531/breaking21.html

Our Taoiseach for one

2kool4skool

The Israelis might also like to ponder on the fact that the Palestinian people they are subjugating are descended from the Jewish population that was in Jerusalem and throughout Palestine and modern day Israel at the time of Christ, before converting to Islam following the capture of Jerusalem by the Caliph Umar in 640 ad. Perhaps the next time they talk about the right to return they might think of the full consequences of same.

karma_

eamo12 wrote: »

She survived the holocaust and now supports hamas? Don't make sense to me - that's why I call her a useful idiot. Besides, I wonder what she would make of the zyklon-B jibes made on this thread?

One person made those jibes and was rightly banned and critisised. I'm sure she does not support Hamas, but well done for besmirching teh reputation of a holocaust survivor and an elderly one at that.

youcrazyjesus!

eamo12 wrote: »

She survived the holocaust and now supports hamas? Don't make sense to me - that's why I call her a useful idiot. Besides, I wonder what she would make of the zyklon-B jibes made on this thread?

I'm sure, like everyone else, she'd be horrified at the single individual who took it upon himself to post that and was subsequently banned.

Selkies

alastair wrote: »

I'm no flag waver for Hamas. But the people there did vote them in, and I don't hear many in Gaza begging the flotilla to sod off.

They had a choice between the two different factions that had enough guns to defend themselves during an election, it's hardly a legitimate mandate.

partyguinness

eamo12 wrote: »

She survived the holocaust and now supports hamas? Don't make sense to me - that's why I call her a useful idiot. Besides, I wonder what she would make of the zyklon-B jibes made on this thread?

And you are so much more informed on the situation than she is..:rolleyes:..solidarity with the suffering of Palastinian people in Gaza and condemning Israel actions does not equate to supporting Hamas.

Time you moved on from your Ladybird books on politics, mate.

Branding an 85 yr activist as an "idiot" should have no place in this forum.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

The UNCLOS also replaces the previous four conventions. Once the UNCLOS came along the previous conventions are rather meaningless.

Nonsense. The UNCLOS added a bunch of additional legislation, but the Convention is still international law, and the legislation which Israel (and the US for that matter) can be held accountable to.

Fits Morris

"The people on the ship had hand grenades", according to the Deputy Israeli ambassador to Ireland. What evidence? "Eh...ah... it was on the internet". Ah yes, the Israeli propaganda machine is really going into overdrive now.

IrishTonyO

Netanyahu has cancelled his visit to the US tomorrow.

gandalf

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Netanyahu has cancelled his visit to the US tomorrow.

More than likely he was told to cancel it

OhNoYouDidn't

eamo12 wrote: »

She survived the holocaust and now supports hamas?

Do people actually see the world in that black and white, zero sum way?

Frightening.

2kool4skool

It's the best type of election you can possibly get in the siege conditions in which they have to live. How can the Israelis possibly believe that a moderate democracy is going to thrive in a country whose infrastructure they have destroyed, whose population they humiliate on a daily basis and whose land they have forcibly taken.

Of course there are a number of Israelis who are appalled at the course their government has adopted but they naturally get very little air time in Israel and are frequently regarded as traitors. For this reason the actions of the holocaust survivor in embarking on the flotilla deserve our respect and admiration as she will be vilified in the Israeli press.

eamo12

partyguinness wrote: »

Branding an 85 yr activist as an "idiot" should have no place in this forum.

Why not? The people of Gaza elected Hamas. Does she not know Hamas official policy on Israel???? Here are just 2:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

dan719

karma_ wrote: »

you survive a holocaust did yee?

Easy to criticise from your comfy chair there.

By this logic, every Israeli action would be justified if the PM was a Holocaust survivor. It works both ways.

I still think that the flotilla brought this on themselves. They ignored directions from the IDF Navy, who then boarded them, were attacked, and eventually (look at the video with the soldier being hit with the iron bar) used lethal force. They were looking for a response, it was just more heavy handed than they expected.

prinz

alastair wrote: »

Nonsense. The UNCLOS added a bunch of additional legislation, but the Convention is still international law, and the legislation which Israel (and the US for that matter) can be held accountable to.

Your Convention on the High Seas, forms part of UNCLOS I. Could you link to where Israel signed up to the Convention on the High Seas?

partyguinness

eamo12 wrote: »

Why not? The people of Gaza elected Hamas. Does she not know Hamas official policy on Israel???? Here are just 2:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Do you want to go to Gaza personally and call the voting population "idiots" for democratically electing Hamas in an internationally verified election?

I'll buy your (one way) ticket...;)

2kool4skool

Obama has read the riot act to Netanyahu over the phone and has told him he is going to condemn the move (and also not welcome in the US at present). Israel will now be on to the pro-Israeli lobby to put as much pressure as they can to water down the language of condemnation and to ensure that the US will still block any UN resolution directly critical of Israel. Hilary Clinton meanwhile is livid which is only added to by the U.S.'s known impotence when it comes to this kind of action by Israel. She will be more direct than Obama in her criticism and calls for Israel to move on the peace process (they will still ignore her though other than a bit of lip service).

alastair

prinz wrote: »

:Which brings us back to the post I was replying to, which said something about governments etc all over Europe declaring it illegal. No one has so far. Lots of concern, ambiguity etc.

Eh you said 'described as illegal' - which Cowen has done. The UN position on the blockade is that it's illegal on humanitarian grounds, and, as with most international disputes, Ireland respects UN arbitration in forming it's own position.

Scofflaw

eamo12 wrote: »

Otherwise known as a 'useful idiot'.

If you've nothing useful to contribute, you can refrain from pouring petrol on the blaze.

moderately,
Scofflaw

partyguinness

eamo12 wrote: »

Sorry, I can't make sense of your comment. Maybe English is not your first language.

Very mature....:rolleyes:

Unsettling that just one word causes you so much confusion.

Longboard

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.

What a load of bs. I didn't realise they were on a stag weekend.


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64U27020100531

IrishTonyO

Israeli ambassador has arrived at the Department of Foreign Affairs. Hopefully some action will be taken.

dan719

2kool4skool wrote: »

Obama has read the riot act to Netanyahu over the phone and has told him he is going to condemn the move (and also not welcome in the US at present). Israel will now be on to the pro-Israeli lobby to put as much pressure as they can to water down the language of condemnation and to ensure that the US will still block any UN resolution directly critical of Israel. Hilary Clinton meanwhile is livid which is only added to by the U.S.'s known impotence when it comes to this kind of action by Israel. She will be more direct than Obama in her criticism and calls for Israel to move on the peace process (they will still ignore her though other than a bit of lip service).

And which part of the West Wing are you in? :rolleyes:

Any chance of a link?

20Cent

Drove past Israeli embassy in Dublin 20 mins ago, a handful of people protesting outside. Should be thousands, get there if you can.

partyguinness

dan719 wrote: »

And which part of the West Wing are you in? :rolleyes:

Any chance of a link?

LOL:D

IrishTonyO

20Cent wrote: »

Drove past Israeli embassy in Dublin 20 mins ago, a handful of people protesting outside. Should be thousands, get there if you can.

Protest starts at 6pm at the Spire and marches to the Israeli embassy