Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

prinz

alastair wrote: »

Eh you said 'described as illegal' - which Cowen has done..

Cowen has said he believes it may be illegal. Big difference.

Prufrock

Israeli commandos who raided a Gaza aid ship Monday were set upon by activists with knives and clubs and some troops jumped overboard to save themselves, according to an Israeli account.

I've never heard such spin. I can't imagine commandos jumping overboard when faced by knives and clubs.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

Your Convention on the High Seas, forms part of UNCLOS I. Could you link to where Israel signed up to the Convention on the High Seas?

The 155 parties to the 1982 Convention include most of the States bound by the Geneva Conventions; the latter Conventions remain binding only as between, or in the relationships with, the few States that are parties to the relevant Geneva Convention and not parties to the 1982 Convention. This is, in particular, the case of the United States, Colombia, Israel and Venezuela

http://untreaty.un.org/cod/avl/ha/gclos/gclos.html

partyguinness

One plus point with the rescession and higher unemployment. Attendances at protests should rocket.:D

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Which the Israelis offered and which the convoy leaders refused.

...because the supplies wouldn't have been allowed in.

Selkies

Any chance people would stop refering to Hamas as the democratically elected government.
The people of the territories had choice between a corrupt organisation and an extremist one. This is hardly a mandate for extremism as much as a mandate against corruption.

In a democratic election candidates don't have people they disagree with killed.

prinz

Prufrock wrote: »

I've never heard such spin. I can't imagine commandos jumping overboard when faced by knives and clubs.

I can. If there's a choice between jumping in and being knocked out and thrown in I'd rather jump with my wits about me.

gizmo555

prinz wrote: »

He questioned the legality. He did not declare it illegal.

What you asked was "Who has described it as illegal?". The Taoiseach, who is a lawyer, has said he "believes" the Israeli blockade is illegal - IMO that's close enough and the distinction you're trying to draw is lost on me and I suspect the majority of those reading the thread. It must also logically follow that the use of military force in international waters to enforce an illegal blockade is itself illegal.

wes

Selkies wrote: »

Any chance people would stop refering to Hamas as the democratically elected government.
The people of the territories had choice between a corrupt organisation and an extremist one. This is hardly a mandate for extremism as much as a mandate against corruption.

In a democratic election candidates don't have people they disagree with killed.

Again, it was a democratic election, and was observed to free and fair by the International community. As much as I dislike Hamas, they did win the election fairly.

wes

SECURITY COUNCIL CALLS FOR IMMEDIATE, DURABLE, FULLY RESPECTED CEASEFIRE

IN GAZA LEADING TO FULL WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI FORCES

--SNIP--
“2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;

“3. Welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid;
--SNIP--

Once again, as per the above resolution, Israel siege is illegal. People can try and deny the fact all the want, but what they are doing is illegal.

youcrazyjesus!

At what point are television and radio presenters allowed tell Israeli spokespeople to go **** themselves and to stop wasting peoples time with transparent nonsense and doublespeak?

Sick to my back teeth of listening to these propaganda people being given time to spout their nonsense.

prinz

gizmo555 wrote: »

What you asked was "Who has described it as illegal?". The Taoiseach, who is a lawyer, has said he "believes" the Israeli blockade is illegal - IMO that's close enough...

IYO.

partyguinness

Selkies wrote: »

Any chance people would stop refering to Hamas as the democratically elected government.
The people of the territories had choice between a corrupt organisation and an extremist one. This is hardly a mandate for extremism as much as a mandate against corruption.

In a democratic election candidates don't have people they disagree with killed.

You might not like it or have to agree with it but they are the legitimate and democratically elected government....you can bring a horse to the water but you cant make him drink it and all that.

You are judging them with your own western views. Hell, I can't abide the Gov here but, you know they were elected too...c'est la vie!!

Nodin

Deep Easterly wrote: »

We really live in strange, twisted, dangerous world of spin that will do anything to justify the murder of innocents.

They are oppossed to the interests of an ally to America, and thus have the odour of brimstone about them.....

alastair

prinz wrote: »

Cowen has said he believes it may be illegal. Big difference.

Nope not 'believed it may be' -

“The cause of this problem relates directly to the fact that there is a humanitarian blockade. I believe that is in violation of international law. People are entitled to have humanitarian assistance."

No 'maybe' in there.

youcrazyjesus!

Nodin wrote: »

...because the supplies wouldn't have been allowed in.

Yet no presenter I've listened to today has made this point. If Israel was allowed control over this aid it would strip it bare and nothing of value would go in. This is a great opportunity for those in the media to lay out the facts about the Gazan seige, they could let people know what exactly is being prevented from reaching Gaza.

OhNoYouDidn't

Prufrock wrote: »

I've never heard such spin. I can't imagine commandos jumping overboard when faced by knives and clubs.

Why not?

Leaving aside the tactical mistake that this was (what exactly was storming the ship likely to achieve?) the whole thing was from a military point of view a shambles.

It appears one of the IDF soldiers got shot with a pistol he or his collegue dropped from the helicopter and similarly stun grenades they let fall onto the deck got thrown at them. They rappelled in isolation from each other at different times in different locations from the team that came up the gang way. The whole thing was badly planned and executed. So it doesn't surprise me one bit that when faced with people throwing shapes they legged it.

The IDF are a far cry from the force they were in the 60's and 70's. As are there secret services after the debacle that was the Dubai hit.

partyguinness

IMO...Israeli knows damn well what it did was OTT etc etc. That is the point.

"We are not going to tolerate this sort of thing from foreign Aid workers. Come near this place again and you will sure as hell wish you had stayed behind your PC posting your indignation on Boards.ie. We dont give a flying fcuk about interantional laws, Conventions, human rights. So there."

One big dramtic lesson to show the world and so it continues.....

gandalf

Any clear idea of what the casualty figures are. Some sites are quoting 9 dead others are still saying up to 19. Also any indication of the nationalities. I know they said the majority were Turkish.

IrishTonyO

Anyone have a link to a decent camera on O'connell Street, just want to see later if many are at the protest

gandalf

partyguinness wrote: »

IMO...Israeli knows damn well what it did was OTT etc etc. That is the point.

"We are not going to tolerate this sort of thing from foreign Aid workers. Come near this place again and you will sure as hell wish you had stayed behind your PC posting your indignation on Boards.ie. We dont give a flying fcuk about interantional laws, Conventions, human rights. So there."

One big dramtic lesson to show the world and so it continues.....

Well I suppose they had to step it up from using a bulldozer to run those pesky foreign aid workers over as that didn't seem to work.

OhNoYouDidn't

prinz wrote: »

IYO.

This is painful.

Israel is bound my the rules of the sea, as is any country who choses to sail the high seas. End of. Its like the rules of the road, you implicitly accept them if you drive. You obey the rules and you get help if needed from other sailors. Thats how it has always worked.

Last night they broke a number of these rules. Why are you still trying to debate that they are somehow exempt?

Limestone1

prinz wrote: »

I can. If there's a choice between jumping in and being knocked out and thrown in I'd rather jump with my wits about me.

Highly trained Commandos all weaponed up and after jumping on board from a helicopter - and you believe they ran away because one of the civilians had a knife ???

sensibleken

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Yet no presenter I've listened to today has made this point. If Israel was allowed control over this aid it would strip it bare and nothing of value would go in. This is a great opportunity for those in the media to lay out the facts about the Gazan seige, they could let people know what exactly is being prevented from reaching Gaza.

there was a lady from free gaza on bbc news 24 today. the presenter was trying to say that they knew they were bringing 'banned' items and should have expected a response from israel. the lady, though not media savvy, made the point that it was exactly because they were banned that it was up to citizens to deliver these items. banned or not they are still essential.

i used to be an oppologist for israel. i reversed that position some years ago and am utterly appauled by peoples attempts to justify what israel did today. you can grope and argue about sub paragraphs in laws here and there but if you have any respect for your fellow man, any empathy at all, you would see this and the continuing abuse of gazan citizens as a mockery of humanity.

Byron85

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why not?

Leaving aside the tactical mistake that this was (what exactly was storming the ship likely to achieve?) the whole thing was from a military point of view a shambles.

It appears one of the IDF soldiers got shot with a pistol he or his collegue dropped from the helicopter and similarly stun grenades they let fall onto the deck got thrown at them. They rappelled in isolation from each other at different times in different locations from the team that came up the gang way. The whole thing was badly planned and executed. So it doesn't surprise me one bit that when faced with people throwing shapes they legged it.

Are you for real?? Weapons do not just fall off a person, who by the way is a member of one of the most well funded and well trained armies in the world, while they are rappelling down a rope.

There is video footage on youtube in which a reporter on one of the ships describes one of the activists as having been shot in the head. In the head. That my friends, at the very least, is a complete disregard for human life. At worst, it is a military execution.

Also, the Israelis continued to fire on the ship after a white flag had been raised. That little piece of information is being neatly swept under the carpet.

OhNoYouDidn't

Limestone1 wrote: »

Highly trained Commandos all weaponed up and after jumping on board from a helicopter - and you believe they ran away because one of the civilians had a knife ???

What I saw in the news was not the work of highly trained commandos. They didn't board the vessell in anything resembeling military order.

Amatuer night is being polite. They dropped at least one gun and stun grenade ffs. The FCA don't make mistakes like that.

Selkies

wes wrote: »

Again, it was a democratic election, and was observed to free and fair by the International community. As much as I dislike Hamas, they did win the election fairly.

Yes but you are ignoring the fact that only people from fatah and hamas can run for office.

Seriously do not remember what happened once hamas seized power?

This is not democratic, this is sparta!!!

IrishTonyO

Sweden has expelled the Israeli ambassador

OhNoYouDidn't

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Are you for real?? Weapons do not just fall off a person, who by the way is a member of one of the most well funded and well trained armies in the world, while they are rappelling down a rope.

There is video footage on youtube in which a reporter on one of the ships describes one of the activists as having been shot in the head. In the head. That my friends, at the very least, is a complete disregard for human life. At worst, it is a military execution.

Also, the Israelis continued to fire on the ship after a white flag had been raised. That little piece of information is being neatly swept under the carpet.

I'm very real. There isn't a link between the brutality of soldiers and their professionalism. What we saw was soldiers make a complete balls of their entry and then open up when isolated from their collegues and subsequently feel threatned.

Prufrock

prinz wrote: »

I can. If there's a choice between jumping in nad being knocked out and thrown in I'd rather jump with my wits about me.

You serious? I can't see a well armed military force being beaten back by a group of civilians.