Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

sensibleken

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Sweden has expelled the Israeli ambassador

have you a link? i cant see that on any of the news sources

Selkies

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Are you for real?? Weapons do not just fall off a person, who by the way is a member of one of the most well funded and well trained armies in the world, while they are rappelling down a rope.

There is video footage on youtube in which a reporter on one of the ships describes one of the activists as having been shot in the head. In the head. That my friends, at the very least, is a complete disregard for human life. At worst, it is a military execution.

Also, the Israelis continued to fire on the ship after a white flag had been raised. That little piece of information is being neatly swept under the carpet.

I'm reminded of a simpsons quote "Their white flags are no match for our bayonets"

Yes but after the white flag is raised the captain is still trying to convince people to stop resisting the Israelis. It's likely that the people who raised the white flag had nothing to do with the people who attacked the commandos

partyguinness

Prufrock wrote: »

You serious? I can't see a well armed military force being beaten back by a group of civilians.

Those Aid workers can get vicious you know....more lethal than 10 Chuck Norris's combined.

OhNoYouDidn't

Prufrock wrote: »

You serious? I can't see a well armed military force being beaten back by a group of civilians.

Have you looked at the footage?

The bungling soldiers managed to isolate themselves from each other and got turned over with ease. Then the shooting started....

alastair

Selkies wrote: »

Yes but you are ignoring the fact that only people from fatah and hamas can run for office.

Seriously do not remember what happened once hamas seized power?

This is not democratic, this is sparta!!!

Parties running in the 2006 Palestinian elections:

Fatah
Before the 2006 election, the PLC was dominated by the Fatah movement, which held 68 of the 88 seats. However, Fatah had been beset by internal strife in advance of the elections, with younger and more popular figures like Mohammed Dahlan, who took part in the negotiations of the 1993 Oslo Accords, and Marwan Barghouti (the latter currently serving five life sentences in an Israeli jail on terrorism charges) levelling allegations of corruption against Fatah leadership. Fatah organised primary elections to determine its list members, but the results were disputed and central lists imposed in some areas. The younger faction submitted a list dubbed Al-Mustaqbal ("the Future"), headed by Barghouti. However, on December 28, 2005, the leadership of the two factions agreed to submit a single list to voters, headed by Barghouti, who began actively campaigning for Fatah from his jail cell. Despite this, the two groups were by no means fully reconciled.

List of Change and Reform
The main component of this list was the Islamist Hamas movement, Fatah's main rival on the Palestinian political scene. Unlike Fatah, Hamas has refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist. Hamas refused to participate in the 1996 elections because it viewed the Palestinian Authority as illegitimate due to its negotiations with Israel; while it has not changed that stance, it fielded candidates in 2006. Going into the election it had considerable momentum due to unexpected electoral success in the municipal elections in 2005.

The prospect of a Palestinian Authority dominated by Hamas alarmed Western governments, which almost universally consider it to be a terrorist group, and which provide foreign aid that makes up almost half of the PNA's budget. It was fear of a Hamas victory that was largely credited with driving the reconciliation between the main Fatah list and the Al-Mustaqbal breakaway faction.

Independent Palestine
This list was headed by Mustafa Barghouti, a distant relative of Marwan Barghouti. Mustafa Barghouti came in second in the Palestinian presidential election, 2005. The main component of this list was the Palestinian National Initiative. The list promised to fight corruption and nepotism, to demand the dismantling of the Israeli West Bank barrier, which it terms the "apartheid wall", and to provide "a truly democratic and independent 'third way' for the large majority of silent and unrepresented Palestinian voters, who favour neither the autocracy and corruption of the governing Fatah party, nor the fundamentalism of Hamas."

Martyr Abu Ali Mustafa
This list was formed by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and is named after Abu Ali Mustafa, the General Secretary of the PFLP who was assassinated by Israeli forces in 2001. The PFLP is the second largest member of the umbrella Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), after Fatah.

Third Way
This list was headed by Finance Minister Dr Salam Fayyad and former PA Minister of Higher Education and Research Hanan Ashrawi. Their platform focused on reform of the security forces, democratic improvements and socioeconomic progress.

In the run up to the election a Fatah leader in Nablus accused the Third Way of receiving funds from the CIA.

The Alternative
This list was a coalition of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian People's Party, the Palestine Democratic Union (Fida), and various independents. The list was headed by Qais Abd al-Karim (Abou Leila) from the DFLP. The PPP candidate received 2.67% in the Palestinian presidential election, 2005. In the list vote, its best vote was 6.6% in Bethlehem, followed by 4.5% in Ramallah and al-Bireh and 4.0% in Nablus.

Wa'ad
Also known as the National Coalition for Justice and Democracy, this list was headed by Gazan doctor Eyad El-Sarraj, who was a consultant to the Palestinian delegation to the Camp David 2000 Summit and heads a group of Palestinian and Israeli academics working towards a peace agreement. [5] The list's main platform is security reforms, establishing the rule of law and respect for human rights.

IrishTonyO

sensibleken wrote: »

have you a link? i cant see that on any of the news sources

Was just on TV3 news

UltimateMale

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm very real. There isn't a link between the brutality of soldiers and their professionalism. What we saw was soldiers make a complete balls of their entry and then open up when isolated from their collegues and subsequently feel threatned.

Funny thing about Israel, it’s almost always unarmed men, women, and children who always attack heavily armed soldiers/armoured cars, heavy tanks first ?

wes

Selkies wrote: »

Yes but you are ignoring the fact that only people from fatah and hamas can run for office.

Seriously do not remember what happened once hamas seized power?

This is not democratic, this is sparta!!!

Again, you are wrong. There were numerous independents who ran and some who got elected, as well as some smaller parties:

Elections in the Palestinian National Authority

Also, Hamas siezed power, after they found out about US backed coup:


US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory

Again, I don't like Hamas, but they were elected in free and fair elections. This is just a statement of fact.

sensibleken

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Was just on TV3 news

thanks. i hope thats true. its time countries stand up and be counted

OhNoYouDidn't

UltimateMale wrote: »

Funny thing about Israel, it’s almost always unarmed men, women, and children who always attack heavily armed soldiers/armoured cars, heavy tanks first ?

And the IDF now haven't a rashers what to do when confronted with any type of organised enemy. See Hezbollah handing them there arses times 2.

Even last night, the aid workers simply held their ground and the soldiers opened up rather than be seen to retreat.

Prufrock

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Have you looked at the footage?

The bungling soldiers managed to isolate themselves from each other and got turned over with ease. Then the shooting started....

Just saw it there. I agree with you. If they are that badly trained then they shouldn't be allowed perform such an operation.

Selkies

partyguinness wrote: »

You might not like it or have to agree with it but they are the legitimate and democratically elected government....you can bring a horse to the water but you cant make him drink it and all that.

You are judging them with your own western views. Hell, I can't abide the Gov here but, you know they were elected too...c'est la vie!!

I'm judging it based on a standards implied when the word democracy is used.

I too dislike the current government, but I have the opportunity to get elected just the same as any other citizen does.
In gaza this is not the case.
In gaza, if you are not hamas and you are political, you are risking your life. I would personally bet on you being murdered fairly quickly.
In a democracy that doesn't happen.

Selkies

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And the IDF now haven't a rashers what to do when confronted with any type of organised enemy. See Hezbollah handing them there arses times 2.

Even last night, the aid workers simply held their ground and the soldiers opened up rather than be seen to retreat.

Yeah, except the IDF keep winning the urban combat competitions.

weepee

Israel has claimed that all ships were to be escorted to Ashdod and they're cargo searched for weapons and weapons material, after which it would be allowed to carry on to Gaza by road.
That is a lie, as Israel allows very limited supplies into the strip, no building materials, no machinery, no non essentials.
Its time we pressed our leaders to push for a boycott of Israel, in a hope of forcing them to make peace with they're neighbours.

Nodin

...and on top of that, it constantly changes whats allowed in, never giving a list of whats permitted and what isn't.

Clawdeeus

I think the most important thing for now (before an investigation) is not whether the aid workers attacked first; it is that this could and should have been avoided. It did not take a genius to figure out that the reaction when Israel tried to stop the convoy was going to be big, if not violent and Israel should have planned as such.

And the fact of white flag being raised was mentioned on CNN several times earlier.

Why is the fact Hamas was democratically elected so important? They are still radicals, with little leeway in their doctrine for compromise. Their election was a disaster. I have no idea if anything could be done to push them aside, besides maybe alleviating the suffering of the people of Gaza and hoping the people moderate again. Whilst they are in power, I believe the situation is only going to get worse. Especially given the reactionary, hardline response of Israel to any (perceived) threat.

weepee

Nodin wrote: »

...and on top of that, it constantly changes whats allowed in, never giving a list of whats permitted and what isn't.

Correct, this whole exercise in seizing the flotilla was about Israel enforcing its blockade of the Gaza Palestinians, and nothing to do with what the ships were carrying.

Memnoch

I don't believe the Israelis are responding to any threats, perceived or otherwise. Their intentions, betrayed by their actions are to drive the palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, to effectively ethnically cleanse them and they will do everything in their power to achieve this with the U.S. protecting them from international sanction.

Today's actions are a further broadcast of that. I've no doubt that they intentionally murdered the 19 aid workers in order to send a message to the world that they can do whatever they want and get away with it and that any humanitarian effort to save the palastinian people from Israeli cruelty will be met with lethal force.

Palestine is the world's shame, and as long as we allow the situation to continue we have absolutely zero moral authority to talk about democracy or freedom or challenge illegal or dictatorial regimes anywhere else in the world.

Clawdeeus

weepee wrote: »

Israel has claimed that all ships were to be escorted to Ashdod and they're cargo searched for weapons and weapons material, after which it would be allowed to carry on to Gaza by road.
That is a lie, as Israel allows very limited supplies into the strip, no building materials, no machinery, no non essentials.
Its time we pressed our leaders to push for a boycott of Israel, in a hope of forcing them to make peace with they're neighbours.

I agree, but the boycotts goal should be the ending of the seige, not peace with their neighbours, it seems to me the continued hostility with Arab states is as much the fault of the surrounding governments as Israel.

Poccington

jimi_t2 wrote: »

When boarded they then (alledgedly) began attacking the soldiers. ''Resisting'' with sticks? You knock a marine out with a 2x4, suddenly there's a spare Israeli machinegun knocking around with traceable ammo. Regardless of where the bullets go afterward or regardless of who's firing them, the deaths will be attributed to the army. Their actions are pretty much par for the course for any western army.

Par for the course for any Western army?

As a member of the Defence Forces, I can hand on heart say that we do not consider the boarding of humanitarian aid ships in International waters and subsequent murder of civilians to be "par for the course". Nor do we consider illegal blockades to be "par for the course".

Paleface

This whole thing is a mess of the highest order.

I think the flotilla were very naive in thinking they could just plough on to Gaza regardless of any warnings.

However Israel were even more in the wrong to react in the way that they did. Total disregard for anything only their own interests as usual.

I just hope this debacle brings about international pressure for proper humanitarian aid to get where it is needed.

That's all this was about.

youcrazyjesus!

Another point that people failed to bring up is the issue of attacks on Israel soldiers, are the crew of boats not perfectly entitled to defend their vessels in international waters from what are effectively pirates?

Nobody made this point.

They've also brought innocent people from outside Israeli waters to Israel itself. They're also guilty of kidnapping. They have hostages.

IrishTonyO

Turkey has recalled it's ambassador from Israel

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/04-turkey-recalls-ambassador-israel-qs-08

Denerick

There is so much misinformation about all of this that nobody really knows whats going on. Frankly, the aid shipment was a massive publicity stunt, and its paid off very well for them. Israel transports lots of food and medical supplies every day to Gaza, the facts speak for themselves (Admittedly its not very humane to blockade an emerging state, but leave that aside for the moment) Israel's Palestine policy is morally bankrupt. But I refuse to join in to the chorus of whingers who are more than prepared to leap on the bandwagon called 'outrage'.

Who fired first? If it was the aid workers, don't be surprised some got killed. If they actually fired first, then it was an act of supreme stupidity and nobody should be surprised that one of the world's top militaries would fire back. Again, these are questions with no answers, because for the moment the mob and the press are more interested in condemnation than clarification. I hope an investigation reveals what actually happened, and then something can be done about it. But the tendancy for the uninformed to leap onto their keyboards and let slip the dogs of outrage never cease to amaze me.

Prufrock

Any news on the death toll? Still 9?

IrishTonyO

Denerick wrote: »

There is so much misinformation about all of this that nobody really knows whats going on. Frankly, the aid shipment was a massive publicity stunt, and its paid off very well for them. Israel transports lots of food and medical supplies every day to Gaza, the facts speak for themselves (Admittedly its not very humane to blockade an emerging state, but leave that aside for the moment) Israel's Palestine policy is morally bankrupt. But I refuse to join in to the chorus of whingers who are more than prepared to leap on the bandwagon called 'outrage'.

Who fired first? If it was the aid workers, don't be surprised some got killed. If they actually fired first, then it was an act of supreme stupidity and nobody should be surprised that one of the world's top militaries would fire back. Again, these are questions with no answers, because for the moment the mob and the press are more interested in condemnation than clarification. I hope an investigation reveals what actually happened, and then something can be done about it. But the tendancy for the uninformed to leap onto their keyboards and let slip the dogs of outrage never cease to amaze me.

Israel boarded the vessel in international waters, even the Toaiseach here has said he doubts Israel can legally justify that at all.

aDeener

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Sweden has expelled the Israeli ambassador

what is the likelihood of us doing the same?

Brown Bomber

Thousands prostesting in Stockholm City Centre.

Live Feed: http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/utrikes/article7216388.ab

(Apoloigies if you need a swedish IP)

Brown Bomber

Denerick wrote: »

There is so much misinformation about all of this that nobody really knows whats going on. Frankly, the aid shipment was a massive publicity stunt, and its paid off very well for them.

Except for the people who were alive yesterday that were murdered right?

I don't think any of us will understand ever the israeli military mindset.
They have nukes so they can do what they like.
They don't care what we think.
Western governments will huff and puff and complain and recall ambassadors etc etc etc but when push comes to shove,they'll ride this episode out as usual as they prefer to keep Israel sweet in the long run as a barricade to Iran and shariah law taking over the world.
At the end of the day thats what it boils down to.