Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

yoshytoshy

I'm amazed people are still questioning ,who fired first.
Isreal did when they boarded the ship.

Byron85

"A preplanned attack against Israeli forces."

"A right to inspect anything coming into Gaza."

"We didn't really know what was there". (In reference to the contents of the ship)







Those were the exact words of the Israeli ambassador to Ireland on the news less than a minute ago.

danbohan

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think any of us will understand ever the israeli military mindset.
They have nukes so they can do what they like.
They don't care what we think.
Western governments will huff and puff and complain and recall ambassadors etc etc etc but when push comes to shove,they'll ride this episode out as usual as they prefer to keep Israel sweet in the long run as a barricade to Iran and shariah law taking over the world.
At the end of the day thats what it boils down to

.[/QUThey have nukes so they can do what they like.

which is exactly the reason that Germany Italy Spain and Holland should create their own nukes to act as independent deterrent in Europe , as of now we only have France with independent nuclear weapons, terrorist states like Israel / Iran etc are major threat

dlofnep

Just back from a very good protest here in Waterford.. There was at around 80 or so activists who came together on very short notice.

gandalf

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

"A preplanned attack against Israeli forces."

"A right to inspect anything coming into Gaza."

"We didn't really know what was there". (In reference to the contents of the ship)

Those were the exact words of the Israeli ambassador to Ireland on the news less than a minute ago.

Yep he was on script alright.

Scofflaw

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think any of us will understand ever the israeli military mindset.
They have nukes so they can do what they like.
They don't care what we think.
Western governments will huff and puff and complain and recall ambassadors etc etc etc but when push comes to shove,they'll ride this episode out as usual as they prefer to keep Israel sweet in the long run as a barricade to Iran and shariah law taking over the world.
At the end of the day thats what it boils down to.

Not really - sharia law is hardly a big threat, and Iran could be knocked over as easily as Iraq was.

It's handy, though, for the West to maintain a mad dog in the Middle East, because it keeps the oil states from getting too uppity. The fact that it's largely the US who maintains the mad dog stops Europe from getting too uppity (we rely on the Middle East for oil far more than the US does). The only problem with a mad dog is that it's a mad dog.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Selkies

weepee wrote: »

Israel has claimed that all ships were to be escorted to Ashdod and they're cargo searched for weapons and weapons material, after which it would be allowed to carry on to Gaza by road.
That is a lie, as Israel allows very limited supplies into the strip, no building materials, no machinery, no non essentials.
Its time we pressed our leaders to push for a boycott of Israel, in a hope of forcing them to make peace with they're neighbours.

Do you think that a boycott will also hurt the Palestinians?

prinz

Limestone1 wrote: »

Highly trained Commandos all weaponed up and after jumping on board from a helicopter - and you believe they ran away because one of the civilians had a knife ???

Prufrock wrote: »

You serious? I can't see a well armed military force being beaten back by a group of civilians.

Listen lads enough of the COD nonsense. These soldiers were descending at night, onto moving vessels and there were people on board waiting for them. It can be seen on the videos that soldiers reaching the deck were immediately surrounded and beaten with metal poles etc, some of them ended up on the ground getting hammered, one fella got chucked over a railing 30 odd feet onto the deck underneath.

Manic Moran

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Heres why Red Cross aren't involved. And the fact that the missile hit the centre of the cross says a lot for me.

That picture is staged. The hole is right where there's normally an air vent mounted, and the damage patterns bear no resemblance to a missile. There's a full pictorial analysis on the web somewhere, it's a wonderful example of how anti-Israeli propoganda can be even more effective than pro-Israeli propoganda.

Just got a link to a video showing that the Israeli soldiers were shooting BEFORE they boarded the ship so the story that they were attacked and fired in self-defence is complete and total BULL***

I believe the vessel in question was first boarded by a helicopter insertion. If so, then that video of the boat approaching could be Israeli reinforcements showing up after the shooting had started. If they're already shooting when they show up at first, I'm curious as to how a number of Israeli soldiers were injured. Unless they shot themselves.

The fact that all casualties occurred on a single ship implies that someone on one side or other made a spontaneous decision on his own without instructions from their side.

Why don't you suggest what COULD HAVE BEEN on board? Rockets? From where, Ireland?

Are you suggesting that there are no illegal military rockets in Ireland? The Gardai would disagree with you, a couple were found two weeks ago.

As an aside on the whole legal thing, is it not true that the Israeli control of Gaza is considered a military occupation of war by the interntional courts? If so, is not the blockade of Gaza (as the opponent in said war) a legimitate military strategy?

I want to see all footage, in order it was shot.

That's a fair statement, though it does seem that the first Israeli chap to land barely hit the deck before he was set upon. No indication of violence anywhere else on the ship that I can see before he touches down, so the claim that this was indeed the first Israeli to land does seem at least supportable.

Actually, I want to see the entire sequence of events, from the first radio warning through when the last casualties are taken off the ship.

I can't see a well armed military force being beaten back by a group of civilians.

Even Special Forces aren't supermen. In all cases, be it a beach assault, paratrooper landing or a ship boarding, the most dangerous time is just when they're setting foot and before they can situate themselves.
Not that I'm a ship-boarding expert, but as near as I can tell, there are four ways they could go in. One is to treat all aboard as hostile, and basically shoot to create a clear zone for them to land. This didn't happen. The second is that they board assuming (correctly) that all aboard are peaceful, in which case they just drop in. The third is that they assume (incorrectly) that all aboard are peaceful and they just drop in, then get set upon piecemeal before they can get themselves together. Finally, they can go with option 2, take option 3 into account, and try to at least land in a defensible position, maybe on one end or the other of the ship. Obviously this last option is the one they should have gone with, but there may have been reasons it was not feasible. Or the chopper pilot may just have screwed up and put them in the wrong place. Either way, it was probably out of the hands of the first man down the rope.

prinz

Thought Bryan Dobson did well with the ambasador to be fair, he didn't seem too comfortable with some of the questions.

PeakOutput

Manic Moran wrote: »

I believe the vessel in question was first boarded by a helicopter insertion. If so, then that video of the boat approaching could be Israeli reinforcements showing up after the shooting had started. If they're already shooting when they show up at first, I'm curious as to how a number of Israeli soldiers were injured. Unless they shot themselves.

yep according to what i have read today, the first boarders were from the chopper with anti riot gear tear gas paintball guns etc it was only after one soldier got stabbed and one got thrown from a 30foot drop that they sent in soldiers with assault weapons

Glenshane Pass

Manic Moran wrote: »

That picture is staged. The hole is right where there's normally an air vent mounted, and the damage patterns bear no resemblance to a missile. There's a full pictorial analysis on the web somewhere, it's a wonderful example of how anti-Israeli propoganda can be even more effective than pro-Israeli propoganda.

Rubbish, but you wouldn't agree no matter what.

Are you suggesting that there are no illegal military rockets in Ireland? The Gardai would disagree with you, a couple were found two weeks ago.

Oh for god sake... So you still think its plausible that some sort of conspiracy between Hamas and 600 activists, from all across europe to smuggle a few RPGs (which grow on trees in Palestine) into Gaza? Jog on mate.

Glenshane Pass

PeakOutput wrote: »

yep according to what i have read today, the first boarders were from the chopper with anti riot gear tear gas paintball guns etc it was only after one soldier got stabbed and one got thrown from a 30foot drop that they sent in soldiers with assault weapons

So how many were in that chopper?

Manic Moran

Who the hell brought a paintball gun to the fight? (00:48 or so)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

NTM

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

Who the hell brought a paintball gun to the fight? (00:48 or so)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

NTM

That would be what's technically known as a "civilian". I find the contrast between the Israeli response to being attacked with poles and the Gardai's response to the same form of assault a couple of weeks ago quite interesting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nodin

Scofflaw wrote: »

That would be what's technically known as a "civilian".

...unless he was subsequently shot by the IDF, in which case he either becomes an unforunate 'human shield' or a 'terrorist'.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

Listen lads enough of the COD nonsense. These soldiers were descending at night, onto moving vessels and there were people on board waiting for them. It can be seen on the videos that soldiers reaching the deck were immediately surrounded and beaten with metal poles etc, some of them ended up on the ground getting hammered, one fella got chucked over a railing 30 odd feet onto the deck underneath.

The pictures released by the Israeli's have zero value.

The fired onto the protesters in order to provoke them before dropping down. The only footage I will consider valid will be that which would have been taken by people on the ships themselves. But the fact is that Israel will confisicate and destroy this evidence.

I don't know what is more ridiculous. That you want us to base judgement on video supplied by the IDF, or that you think people are stupid enough to fall for this nonsense.

Manic Moran

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Rubbish, but you wouldn't agree no matter what.

Here you go. The ambulance in question.





The same type of ambulance without an open gap in the red cross.



Vehicles which actually were hit by missiles.




NTM

Memnoch

Scofflaw wrote: »

That would be what's technically known as a "civilian". I find the contrast between the Israeli response to being attacked with poles and the Gardai's response to the same form of assault a couple of weeks ago quite interesting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

What I find most surprising is how little commentary there is in the western media about how the actions by the protesters no doubt in fear for their lives were likely provoked by the IDF.

2kool4skool

Depressing reality is that the Israeli ambassador comes out, gives the party line, knows virtually nobody believes him and after a couple of days it will be business as usual for Israel. They will hold an internal army enquiry, absolve all the soldiers of any blame and probably decorate some of them. Netanyahu will fly back from Canada, visit the seriously (?!) wounded, Israeli soldiers in hospital with a scrum of Israeli and CNN media and on we will roll with the people in Palestine still living under horrific conditions without basic sanitation etc. until the next outrage.

The only constructive thing it seems that we can do is to boycott Israeli produce (the argument that it will hurt the Palestinians more would certainly not seem to follow if you look at the South African example). Interesting to hear what any of our Palestinian friends think.

Glenshane Pass

The boarding of the ship was illegal. The discussion should start with this.

steelcityblues

Harry Truman has a lot to answer for!

Memnoch

Memnoch wrote: »

The pictures released by the Israeli's have zero value.

what do you think they made it up?

prinz

Scofflaw wrote: »

I find the contrast between the Israeli response to being attacked with poles and the Gardai's response to the same form of assault a couple of weeks ago quite interesting.

There's a big difference to being on the ground, surrounded and beaten viciously, and the morons who tried it on at the Dáil gates.

Glenshane Pass

Manic Moran wrote: »

Here you go. The ambulance in question.





The same type of ambulance without an open gap in the red cross.



Vehicles which actually were hit by missiles.




NTM

Ok, so the Palestinians forged the obvious shrapnel holes, etc. And the Red Cross are lying bastards too.

prinz

Memnoch wrote: »

The pictures released by the Israeli's have zero value. The fired onto the protesters in order to provoke them before dropping down.

Says who?

yoshytoshy

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

The boarding of the ship was illegal. The discussion should start with this.

I'd like to see what happens when a french or british ship goes to inspect the area ,via naval ship.

Memnoch

Deleted User wrote: »

what do you think they made it up?

Nope. I think they are severely edited in order to remove any evidence of crimes by the Israeli soldiers/provocation of the protesters.

Eg. The Israelis firing on the protesters (live ammunition or not) from the helicopters before going down onto the ships.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

Says who?

Say the people who were attacked. It's been mentioned several times before in this thread.

There is no doubt in my mind that the protesters were attacked first and provoked into trying to defend themselves, as futile as that was.

Manic Moran

Scofflaw wrote: »

That would be what's technically known as a "civilian".

Then why is he shooting at the guys with the sticks and wearing body armour? (Look at the heat differentials).

Ok, so the Palestinians forged the obvious shrapnel holes, etc. And the Red Cross are lying bastards too.

I don't know what made the shrapnel holes, but it wasn't a missile as claimed.

NTM