Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Scofflaw

Memnoch wrote: »

What I find most surprising is how little commentary there is in the western media about how the actions by the protesters no doubt in fear for their lives were likely provoked by the IDF.

You mean that moment when you look up and see people being dropped on board your ship by helicopter, and you've no idea whether they're armed (but they likely are) and whether they're just going to start shooting you and your friends as soon as they're on board?

Clearly it would be unreasonable of anyone to do anything other than offer them a cup of tea.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Glenshane Pass

Memnoch wrote: »

Say the people who were attacked. It's been mentioned several times before in this thread.

There is no doubt in my mind that the protesters were attacked first and provoked into trying to defend themselves, as futile as that was.

And news reporters who were on the ship

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

Then why is he shooting at the guys with the sticks and wearing body armour? (Look at the heat differentials).

I have no idea. I've tried being a somewhat panicky person on a ship that's having soldiers dropped on it with no clear idea what they're going to do, but my neighbours have asked me to stop because of the screaming and the running about.

I suspect I also lack the detailed forensic experience that seems to be so much a part of the online Israel-Palestine action.

cordially,
Scofflaw

prinz

Scofflaw wrote: »

You mean that moment when you look up and see people being dropped on board your ship by helicopter, and you've no idea whether they're armed (but they likely are) and whether they're just going to start shooting you and your friends as soon as they're on board?

Given that they were warned what would happen it's unlikely that they were caught completely by suprise with no idea what was happening.

As for what was a reasonable response - the rest of the convoy seemed to have managed it.

Memnoch

Scofflaw wrote: »

You mean that moment when you look up and see people being dropped on board your ship by helicopter, and you've no idea whether they're armed (but they likely are) and whether they're just going to start shooting you and your friends as soon as they're on board?

Clearly it would be unreasonable of anyone to do anything other than offer them a cup of tea.

cordially,
Scofflaw

To be honest, this has upset me more than anything else about the incident.

The disregard for humanitarian or international law by the IDF is well known, and as horrified as I am by their actions, I'm not in the least surprised.

What I find incredibly disconcerting is the failure of the western press to add real balance to the coverage. Why, time and time again are Israeli diplomats, soldiers and representatives being invited on every news channel imaginable to disseminate their propaganda. Why are they not being more stringently questioned and challenged when they make these false accusations? Why are they not interviewing representatives of the free gaza movement who organised the aid flotilla and were likely in touch with the protesters when the Israelis came down?

Glenshane Pass

Manic Moran wrote: »

Then why is he shooting at the guys with the sticks and wearing body armour? (Look at the heat differentials).



I don't know what made the shrapnel holes, but it wasn't a missile as claimed.

NTM

Yawn. See HRW report;
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/qana1206/5.htm#_Toc152999224

Manic Moran

Scofflaw wrote: »

I have no idea. I've tried being a somewhat panicky person on a ship that's having soldiers dropped on it with no clear idea what they're going to do, but my neighbours have asked me to stop because of the screaming and the running about.

I suspect I also lack the detailed forensic experience that seems to be so much a part of the online Israel-Palestine action.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sorry, I didn't pick up on the satire in your earlier post.

Other people reading it may believe you actually think he's a civilian.

Yawn. See HRW report;
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena...#_Toc152999224

So HRW are saying that a missile scored an absolutely perfect hit on the dead centre of a red cross (without discussing issues such as CEP), or that for some bizarre reason, the missile failed to detonate upon initial impact as it has done in all other cases? I'll believe that...

NTM

Winty

The boarded of the vessel overnight, we done to protect Israel against Hamas smuggling in arms.

You can see the film on the BBC website showing clearly brutal attacks with metal clubs on the troops.

What should Israel have done? just open up Gaza and allow Hamas free access to arms.

Every nation has a right to protect itself.
The Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed regret after people died they did not carry out the operation with intent to kill, they are just protecting their people.

Byron85

Memnoch wrote: »

To be honest, this has upset me more than anything else about the incident.

The disregard for humanitarian or international law by the IDF is well known, and as horrified as I am by their actions, I'm not in the least surprised.

What I find incredibly disconcerting is the failure of the western press to add real balance to the coverage. Why, time and time again are Israeli diplomats, soldiers and representatives being invited on every news channel imaginable to disseminate their propaganda. Why are they not being more stringently questioned and challenged when they make these false accusations? Why are they not interviewing representatives of the free gaza movement who organised the aid flotilla and were likely in touch with the protesters when the Israelis came down?

In fairness to RTE, Bryan Dobson gave the Israeli ambassador a good going over on the news at 6.

WIZE

Winty wrote: »

The boarded of the vessel overnight, we done to protect Israel against Hamas smuggling in arms.

You can see the film on the BBC website showing clearly brutal attacks with metal clubs on the troops.

What should Israel have done? just open up Gaza and allow Hamas free access to arms.

Every nation has a right to protect itself.
The Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed regret after people died they did not carry out the operation with intent to kill, they are just protecting their people.

What part of Illegal Boarding in International Water onto an Aid Ship are you not understanding

Everything that Isreal did was wrong

Memnoch

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

In fairness to RTE, Bryan Dobson gave the Israeli ambassador a good going over on the news at 6.

I watched it. It was certainly a lot better than what I saw on BBC or Sky. But I still think he allowed him to get away with far too much.

Winty

Most Haunted wrote: »

What part of Illegal Boarding in International Water onto a Aid Ship are you not understanding

OK Captin Birdseye

What was the ship location

Madd Finn

Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »

I'll refer you back to Col.Kemps address to a UN emergency session after the 2006 Gaza conflict and what he says about aid reaching the Palestinians, and other cool stuff.

Have a look at the UN Watch Website and see if you can guess who's behind it. See which issue, of all the issues concerning the United Nations, it most takes an interest in. And, just to be a little risque, have a look at some of the names of its principles.

I think there is no doubt that it is an organisation which is at the very least "sympathetic" to Israeli policy.

As for the opinions of the British officer. Well, he's entitled to them but paid for as they are by a Zionist lobby group like UN Watch they should be viewed more as the polemic of somebody with a pretty hefty axe to grind than an impartial, objective assessment of the real issues.

It's not impossible to have British Army officers who are fanatically sympathetic to the state of Israel. When it was formed in 1948, many former British officers, not all of them Jewish, collaborated enthusiastically with the new Jewish state because they preferred it to the Arab alternatives that were being promoted.

Then again, many former British soldiers, perhaps due in part to bitterness at the terrorist campaign of the Irgun and Stern Gan Zionist terror groups willingly assisted the Arab resistance. Perhaps most notoriously in the case of the two Tommies who set off a massive truck bomb in the heart of a Jewish area in Jerusalem killing dozens of people.

All that apart, when you sift through what this tin soldier is saying it doesn't amount to much of an exoneration. "We warned people we were going to blow their homes to bits"

Sounds a bit like the Provos to me.
Or even the German army invading Belgium in 1914.
Or Bomber Command before it blitzed German cities in WWII.

All of whom were generally punctilious about giving some sort of warning before embarking on their atrocities.

Nodin

Winty wrote: »

The Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed regret after people died they did not carry out the operation with intent to kill, they are just protecting their people.

You are aware that Israel is building colonies outside its borders? Thats not "just protecting their people" as far as I can see.

I might add that Omagh wasn't intended to kill either, according to those who planted it.

WIZE

Winty wrote: »

OK Captin Birdseye

What was the ship location

It was in Uncontrolled International Waters

Not in Isreali Waters

Scofflaw

prinz wrote: »

Given that they were warned what would happen it's unlikely that they were caught completely by suprise with no idea what was happening.

As for what was a reasonable response - the rest of the convoy seemed to have managed it.

It's pretty much a given that when you approach a tense situation in a threatening way, you will get a variety of responses, not all of which will involve the people you're trying to cow being cowed. If your aim is to ensure a peaceful outcome, therefore, you do not approach tense situations in a threatening manner - something that the Israelis rather clearly did not do.

Had this been a protest in Ireland, and had the Gardai approached it by randomly dropping armed Gardai into the crowd from helicopters, I don't have any hesitation in saying, if there were any deaths or injuries, that the Gardai were at fault for approaching the situation in the wrong way. If the Garda representative then made the claims the Israeli ambassadors have been making, I would most certainly be calling for his head on a plate, together with the arrest of everyone involved or responsible - and so, I suspect, would everyone here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

snickerpuss

Quite a large anti-Israel protest on Kildare St at the moment. Lots of 'Israeli ambassador out'.

Nodin

IMO that this would seem to be a duplicate of another thread currently underway...

Chriskavo

This was nothing more than mass murder on the open seas.

Winty

Nodin wrote: »

IMO that this would seem to be a duplicate of another thread currently underway...

Link Please

KeithAFC

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

And equally, I hope some Israeli soldiers are sent back home in bodybags for their illegal hijacking and kidnapping of civilians.

Lol Makikomi, I have already called you out on your Brit source and his "other cool stuff". Its irrelevant. Just because some Brit with a posh accent gives his opinion, doesn't mean its the gospel. Plus the fact that you refer to British soldiers as "the best fighting men in the world". You're deflecting attention from the incident, i.e. trolling.

No Israel soilder is going home in a bodybag today.

gandalf

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

The boarding of the ship was illegal. The discussion should start with this.

Yes everything else is deflection. The boarding of these ships in International Water was an illegal act. Everything that happened after this was because of this illegal action and Israel should be held accountable for the deaths.

WIZE

Winty wrote: »

Link Please

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055925835

Winty

Winty wrote: »

What should Israel have done? just open up Gaza and allow Hamas free access to arms.

As OP asked, what should Isreal have done to protect against arms import

gandalf

Winty wrote: »

As OP asked, what should Isreal have done to protect against arms import

Not break International Law would be a good place to start.

Glenshane Pass

KeithAFC wrote: »

No Israel soilder is going home in a bodybag today.

Well, you don't know that, but fingers crossed. I have no qualms about supporting the death of Israeli soldiers, especially given the utter unapologetic nature of certain Israeli spokesprsons.

prinz

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's pretty much a given that when you approach a tense situation in a threatening way, you will get a variety of responses, not all of which will involve the people you're trying to cow being cowed. If your aim is to ensure a peaceful outcome, therefore, you do not approach tense situations in a threatening manner - something that the Israelis rather clearly did not do.

This boarding seems to have been a last resort and there are not many ways to board a ship in an 'unthreatening' manner. I think it's fairly obvious that things went wrong and the Israelis need to shoulder their share of the blame for this, but so must those on board the ship.

slavetothegrind

Whereever the ship was dropping in the soldiers like that was stupid and inflammatory risking lives all round.

I think the isrealis tried to get the upper hand pr wise and failed, miserably.

FFS could the isrealis not have just blocked the port so they couldn't land rather than having to shoot people?

Denerick

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Except for the people who were alive yesterday that were murdered right?

Cause and effect? If a child hits a bear with a stone, don't be surprised if the bears eats and dismembers the child. Its basic maturity and reasoning. If they did fire at the Israeli's, then its absolutely no surprise what happened them and I struggle to understand how anyone can simply overlook this fact.

Winty

Most Haunted wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055925835

Not the same thing. I understand that the ship was a cover for Hamas not just aid and supplies. Israel need to protect themselves