Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Winty

slavetothegrind wrote: »

True enough they need to look out for themselves So had the aid organisation invited isreal to inspect the ships cargo before docking to assure them all was genuine?
If so did israel accept?

Great Question. Dont know the answer Israel maybe should have had a more soft approach, but they still have a right to protect its people.

I will look on Google News and see did they ask to inspect the cargo

gandalf

prinz wrote: »

Dr Evrony should start packing his bags IMO.

One can only hope

Sand I agree with a lot of what you say and if these vessels were inside Isreali territorial water then that would be fine. However they illegally boarded ships in International Waters.

Byron85

Winty wrote: »

Great Question. Dont know the answer Israel maybe should have had a more soft approach, but they still have a right to protect its people.

I will look on Google News and see did they ask to inspect the cargo

This is somewhat related:

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, says the flotilla was carefully inspected before departure:

I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

There was no one on board "other than civilian volunteers" he said.

bonkey

Sand wrote: »

They rejected the Israeli proposal that they deliver the goods to Ashood where the Israelis would clear them and they would be delivered to Gaza.

They rejected the legality of the blockade....something which was clear from the outset of the ships. There was never any chance that they were willingly going to decide to acknowledge its authority.

I have seen reports that the flotilla diverted course so as to improve the chances of a daylight confrontation with the Israeli military, which would make for better TV.

Or perhaps they did it so that there was a better chance that in the clear light of day, what ensued would be accurately captured and reported.

when a mob of screaming maniacs surround armed soldiers trying to beat them to death, then no one could honestly pretend to be surprised by the consequences.

When a group of soldiers boarded a ship in International Water, with a clear aim to seizing control of it, no-one could honestly pretend to be surprised by the consequences either.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

The flotilla was clearly aimed at provoking an Israeli response to attempt to highlight the perceived injustice of the Israeli blockade. They rejected the Israeli proposal that they deliver the goods to Ashood where the Israelis would clear them and they would be delivered to Gaza. I have seen reports that the flotilla diverted course so as to improve the chances of a daylight confrontation with the Israeli military, which would make for better TV.

The flotilla has succeeded in previous years. Maybe that expectation was their aim once again?

They rejected the Israeli offer on the understandable basis that Israel has a policy of proscribing the very items of aid that they were carrying - why would you trust Israel to deliver the aid when it refuses to deliver it (via the UN) every other day of the year?

Winty

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

This is somewhat related:This is somewhat related:

Quote:
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, says the flotilla was carefully inspected before departure:

I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

There was no one on board "other than civilian volunteers" he said.

As in my other posts I am pro Israel on this and I see it as protection of its people, But Turkeys PM Mr Erdogan is a man that can be trusted as he was one of Israels only friends in the Muslim world so they should have listen to him. If the Turks say it was only food aid I would believe them

dublincelt

Sand wrote: »

Seems a desperately sad situation - hard to understand what possessed the protestors to try and take on armed soldiers. What did they expect would happen? That a soldier knocked to the ground, being beaten and stamped upon would hesitate to kill to save his own life? Or that other soldiers would hesitate before killing men they saw beating their friends and comrades to death before them?

The flotilla was clearly aimed at provoking an Israeli response to attempt to highlight the perceived injustice of the Israeli blockade. They rejected the Israeli proposal that they deliver the goods to Ashood where the Israelis would clear them and they would be delivered to Gaza. I have seen reports that the flotilla diverted course so as to improve the chances of a daylight confrontation with the Israeli military, which would make for better TV.

Policies of passive resistance are favoured by protestors, but it's a policy that requires a great deal of discipline on the part of the protestors and their organisers and its quite clear that the protestors on that ship dissolved into a mob and abandoned passive resistance for aggressive, violent resistance - perhaps overcome by feelings of rage, anger, hate now that they were finally up close with the evil demonic babykilling Israeli military they despised so much. The Flotilla leadership seems to have lost control of the situation, and when a mob of screaming maniacs surround armed soldiers trying to beat them to death, then no one could honestly pretend to be surprised by the consequences.

Interestingly, theres been a report that the parents of Gilad Shilat, the IDF soldier held by Hamas, attempted to contact the flotilla organisers and proposed a deal whereby the Shilat family would publically support their flotilla efforts if the flotilla organisers would use their influence with Hamas to help their son and or bring him their letters. The organisers apparently told them to get stuffed.

Total and utter crap. Yet another blatant lie from the apologists of zion.

Look here for the TRUTH: Israel continues to threaten Flotilla despite Irish TDs' promise to deliver Shalit letter

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/ipsc/displayRelease.php?releaseID=345

Winty

Sand wrote: »

when a mob of screaming maniacs surround armed soldiers trying to beat them to death, then no one could honestly pretend to be surprised by the consequences.

Great Line, Attach a man with a gun and get shot.

Cheers Sand

eoin5

Sand wrote: »

Seems a desperately sad situation - hard to understand what possessed the protestors to try and take on armed soldiers. What did they expect would happen? That a soldier knocked to the ground, being beaten and stamped upon would hesitate to kill to save his own life? Or that other soldiers would hesitate before killing men they saw beating their friends and comrades to death before them?

The flotilla was clearly aimed at provoking an Israeli response to attempt to highlight the perceived injustice of the Israeli blockade. They rejected the Israeli proposal that they deliver the goods to Ashood where the Israelis would clear them and they would be delivered to Gaza. I have seen reports that the flotilla diverted course so as to improve the chances of a daylight confrontation with the Israeli military, which would make for better TV.

Policies of passive resistance are favoured by protestors, but it's a policy that requires a great deal of discipline on the part of the protestors and their organisers and its quite clear that the protestors on that ship dissolved into a mob and abandoned passive resistance for aggressive, violent resistance - perhaps overcome by feelings of rage, anger, hate now that they were finally up close with the evil demonic babykilling Israeli military they despised so much. The Flotilla leadership seems to have lost control of the situation, and when a mob of screaming maniacs surround armed soldiers trying to beat them to death, then no one could honestly pretend to be surprised by the consequences.

Interestingly, theres been a report that the parents of Gilad Shilat, the IDF soldier held by Hamas, attempted to contact the flotilla organisers and proposed a deal whereby the Shilat family would publically support their flotilla efforts if the flotilla organisers would use their influence with Hamas to help their son and or bring him their letters. The organisers apparently told them to get stuffed.

Its really horrible that its happened this way. I think they were expecting a standoff where their route would be blocked or where the ships would be disabled. Once it became unexpected direct contact, which was a truely terrible move by the IDF and one that the Flotilla people might have considered too crazy to try, they lost their cool and emotions took over.

Their motivation is definitely questionable, but at this stage its hardly an issue with what Israel has to answer for.

gandalf

Winty wrote: »

As in my other posts I am pro Israel on this and I see it as protection of its people, But Turkeys PM Mr Erdogan is a man that can be trusted as he was one of Israels only friends in the Muslim world so they should have listen to him. If the Turks say it was only food aid I would believe them

Well Israel and the IDF have made Mr Erdogans life very difficult with their actions.

They have killed his countrymen in an illegal boarding of Turkish sponsored aid ships and kidnapped (our Foreign Ministers description not mine) the people on those boats. This could have far more serious repercussions for Israel with regards to its otherwise good relationship with Turkey.

IrishTonyO

Michael Martin accuses Israel of kidnapping Irish citizens in International Waters

But Minister Martin said he has told the Israeli Ambassador Dr Zion Evrony that the Government wants these Irish citizens released immediately

Israeli ambassador Dr Evrony said he is neither ashamed nor embarrassed by what happened, but he stated that he would convey the views of the Irish Government to his country's government.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/martin-irish-citizens-kidnapped-in-international-waters-459870.html#ixzz0pXD2CjYG


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/martin-irish-citizens-kidnapped-in-international-waters-459870.html#ixzz0pXCsWsp8

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/martin-irish-citizens-kidnapped-in-international-waters-459870.html

Denerick

The lesson to be learnt here is, if you attack a bully with sticks and stones, expect to be killed. If you shame a bully with passive resistance and moral force, you may have success. To be frank I think its incredibly dishonest for people to take the moral high ground on this. If you fire at somebody first, expect to be fired back at in return. There is no getting around that.

Winty

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Michael Martin accuses Israel of kidnapping Irish citizens in International Waters

Great now that idiot with his 2 pennys worth

Sand

@Bonkey

They rejected the legality of the blockade....something which was clear from the outset of the ships. There was never any chance that they were willingly going to decide to acknowledge its authority.

I know, my point was the organisers entire purpose was to arrange a confrontation with the IDF for propaganda purposes. Some boring delivery of aid wasnt in line with their aim of confrontation.

Or perhaps they did it so that there was a better chance that in the clear light of day, what ensued would be accurately captured and reported.

Yes, they wanted a public confrontation on TV. It wouldnt have suited them to do it in pitch blackness.

When a group of soldiers boarded a ship in International Water, with a clear aim to seizing control of it, no-one could honestly pretend to be surprised by the consequences either.

Ships are boarded and inspected all the time. Unfortunately, in this case, the objective of those being boarded was not to co-operate with the inspection, but instead to spark a confrontation that would make for good TV. Their leadership lost control, they devolved into a mob, and the soldiers defended themselves with lethal force in fear for their lives and the lives of their comrades.

Its sad. The organisers wanted an emotional confrontation, but they perhaps hyped up their members too much, and ignored the real dangers and risks - what quality of training or planning did they have for what to do and how to act when boarded? Did they train their members on how to engage in passive resistance as opposed to attempting to beat people to death?

I dont expect there will be any rational evaluation of this. Its a desperately sad tragedy, and these people were perhaps misled and deluded by their leadership. I have no doubt the leadership of "the cause" will exploit them for all their worth, and then theyll go try to recruit another group of young impressionable people to fire up into a rage and throw at the IDF for another propaganda martyrdom.

I however feel bad for their families - there are ways to engage in protest that seeks passive confrontation. The flotilla leadership have badly let down the families of the people entrusted into their care by deliberately seeking the most confrontational path they could.

@dublincelt
@youcrazyjesus

I understand your anger regarding this tragedy. Unfortunately, I think it will be an all too common response and perhaps the truth will be lost.

prinz

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

They attacked a ship in international waters in the dead of night and murdered aid workers in cold blood. Only a fool would believe this cover story that 10 people were shot after some alleged struggle.

:rolleyes: There's plenty of footage showing this "allleged struggle".

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

:rolleyes: There's plenty of footage showing this "allleged struggle".

Repeating the same lie over and over again does not make it true. I'm only interested in UNEDITED footage from those on board the ship. Israeli propaganda has zero value.

Winty

Denerick wrote: »

To be frank I think its incredibly dishonest for people to take the moral high ground on this.

Whats Dishonest about protecting a nations people from Hamas. OK maybe Isreal got it wrong on the night but they had to do someting. They should had spoken to Turkey first and not send in the troops but on the other hand they can not lie down and have Hamas kill its people

prinz

Memnoch wrote: »

Repeating the same lie over and over again does not make it true. I'm only interested in UNEDITED footage from those on board the ship. Israeli propaganda has zero value.

So footage from the Turk reporter on board doesn't count? Just edited propaganda from anyone but Israel hmmm?

Chriskavo

This was nothing more than terrorism and mass murder. Shame on those who defend the indefensible. If you do you are either pro- Zionist or a troll.

Denerick

Winty wrote: »

Whats Dishonest about protecting a nations people from Hamas. OK maybe Isreal got it wrong on the night but they had to do someting. They should had spoken to Turkey first and not send in the troops but on the other hand they can not lie down and have Hamas kill its people

I'm saying its dishonest for people to criticise Israel for firing back after being fired upon first. Read my post a little more closely.

Denerick

Chriskavo wrote: »

This was nothing more than terrorism and mass murder. Shame on those who defend the indefensible. If you do you are either pro- Zionist or a troll.

The beautiful comferts of unthinking irrationality and emotionalism. How I envy you

Memnoch

Denerick wrote: »

I'm saying its dishonest for people to criticise Israel for firing back after being fired upon first. Read my post a little more closely.

The attack was provoked by the IDF at every level, of this I have zero doubt.

RonMexico

Michael Martin is absolutely correct. He should follow through and show them the exit door back to Israel.

Denerick

Memnoch wrote: »

The attack was provoked by the IDF at every level, of this I have zero doubt.

I'm afraid I need more to go on that your lack of doubts, absolute and faith based as they may be.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

So footage from the Turk reporter on board doesn't count? Just edited propaganda from anyone but Israel hmmm?

Which I'm sure is only a small fraction of the footage and photography of the attack on the aid flotilla. The only amount that got out live in the middle of struggle and panic.

I'm sure most of the evidence will be confisicated and destroyed by the Israelis.

del88

What happened today in israel was terrible.But it always strikes me as hypocritical of people to condemn what happens in the middle east when far worse happens every day in Africa and nobody says anything ...as if it's old hat and hardly worth mentioning
Just to give things some perspective.....

Every day 30,000 children die from a combination of disease- infested water and malnutrition

More than 800 million people go to bed hungry every day, 300 million are children.

Of these 300 million children, only eight percent are victims of famine or other emergency situations. More than 90 percent are suffering long-term malnourishment and micronutrient deficiency.

(source:WHO)

A child dies every three seconds from AIDS and extreme poverty, often before their fifth birthday.

More than one billion people do not have access to clean water.

Every year six million children die from malnutrition before their fifth birthday.

More than 50 percent of Africans suffer from water-related diseases such as cholera and infant diarrhea.

(source: World Bank stats)
In sub-Saharan Africa, measles takes the life of a child nearly every minute of every day. An effective measles vaccine costs as little as $1 per child. (source: WHO)

So why the fixation with the middle east??
Why do people except 30,00 children dying everyday of preventable diseases in africa alone??

youcrazyjesus!

Denerick wrote: »

The lesson to be learnt here is, if you attack a bully with sticks and stones, expect to be killed. If you shame a bully with passive resistance and moral force, you may have success. To be frank I think its incredibly dishonest for people to take the moral high ground on this. If you fire at somebody first, expect to be fired back at in return. There is no getting around that.

You're under a misapprehension. Nobody fired on Israel first. Israeli soldiers, if they were attacked, were only attacked after they fired on innocent people and attempted to seize their ships in the middle of the night in international waters. You're entitled to defend your ship from piracy, even if it is Israel.

Memnoch

Denerick wrote: »

I'm afraid I need more to go on that your lack of doubts, absolute and faith based as they may be.

TBH, I've no intention of trying to convince you, or any other Israeli apologist for that matter. My posts are directed as refutation of your apologist stance for any neutral readers.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

So footage from the Turk reporter on board doesn't count? Just edited propaganda from anyone but Israel hmmm?

We need footage from the beginning to the end of the events to validate all stories. Showing edited footage proves nothing, as it doesn't show who started the events.

Understand?

dan719

Scofflaw wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to board a ship in a manner that makes it clear what is happening - to formalise it, and make it 'official'. Dropping soldiers onto the decks is an assault technique.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I disagree. Boarding a ship that doesn't want to be boarded is not as simple as throwing a ladder along the side.