Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

youcrazyjesus!

dlofnep wrote: »

I can give my opinion on who I believe started it, but I cannot claim that it is fact based on an edited video.

In my opinion - it does not make sense that a group of peace & humanitarian activists would attack some of the most traiend soldiers in the world, who were kitted out in machine guns and body armour.

What does make sense however is that - Israel attacked, and a few activists were enraged by the deaths - and fought back (probably resulting in them being murdered too).

As far as I know the haul of "weapons" Israel has confiscated from the ships is quite pathetic and no Israeli soldier is reported to have been injured by gunfire. This, coupled with multiple reports from journalists on the ships that Israel came in firing, leads me to believe the Israeli story is 100% false. I think that's quite reasonable.

DidierMc

Winty wrote: »

The film I saw was the moment the IDF landed on the ship they were attacked. What should they have done? just take a beating?

You are assuming armed pirates have the right to seize supply ships.

gandalf

TBH if your ship is boarded Illegally in International Waters you are entitled to defend it. Unfortunately what some of these people found out is when you bring a stick to a gun fight you die.

No matter how you try to colour it these people died because of an illegal boarding operation by the IDF.

I would like to see an explanation as to why this could not have happened in Israeli territorial waters during daylight hours without dropping Assault Commandos via Helicopters?

prinz

taconnol wrote: »

You think 20 people died because they were shot with paint-ball guns?

The videos clearly show the first Israelis to drop from helicopters were carrying paint ball guns. These were the men attacked by numerous people with iron bars, thrown off upper decks etc. They resorted to live ammo afterwards.

By the by the suspected death toll is now 'up to 9'.

If you watch the video from on board the ship there is no sounds of gunfire at all until well after soldiers have landed on deck.

Chriskavo

prinz wrote: »

Obviously the concept of cold blooded murder is lost on you.



Cold blooded EVIL murder is all that was.

Mr.Micro

No matter what the apologists for Israel's action post here, most of the normal law abiding states in the word condemn the actions of this increasingly rogue, maybe even terrorist state, which appears to be moving further away into isolation with its bizarre take on things and its over the top reactions resulting in death and destruction.

DidierMc

prinz wrote: »

The videos clearly show the first Israelis to drop from helicopters were carrying paint ball guns. These were the men attacked by numerous people with iron bars, thrown off upper decks etc. They resorted to live ammo afterwards.

By the by the suspected death toll is now 'up to 9'.

Do you also believe Poland invaded Germany in 1939 to start WW2? Because that was the offical German line at the time.

alastair

prinz wrote: »

The videos clearly show the first Israelis to drop from helicopters were carrying paint ball guns. These were the men attacked by numerous people with iron bars, thrown off upper decks etc. They resorted to live ammo afterwards.

I thought they responded to being fired on? The PR machine needs to get it more together than this.

'resorted to live ammo' - and the shooting of scores of people no doubt.

Dar

Winty wrote: »

The film I saw was the moment the IDF landed on the ship they were attacked. What should they have done? just take a beating?

It's a question of perception. The film I saw showed the passengers and crew repelling armed pirates. Given the fact that it was a case of metal pipes vs assault rifles it was an incredibly stupid thing to do but nonetheless I believe they were within their rights to do so.

This whole situation is a travesty. Dropping armed men one by one onto the deck of an obviously unfriendly ship in the dead of night was a recipe for disaster and disaster was the result.

Macha

prinz wrote: »

The videos clearly show the first Israelis to drop from helicopters were carrying paint ball guns. These were the men attacked by numerous people with iron bars, thrown off upper decks etc. They resorted to live ammo afterwards.

Where is the evidence that they are paint ball guns?

And if they are, which would be very strange indeed, how is an individual in the middle of the night supposed to know they are paint ball guns?

youcrazyjesus!

DidierMc wrote: »

Goebbels himself would be in awe of the Israeli lies and slanders dressed up as facts.

What I don't understand is how they all believe every single element of the IDF story even when it contradicts common sense, known facts or even other IDF stories and just discuss the situation on the assumption that the fairytale is true. Going on everything we know about the IDF they arrived on the ships firing, possibly seeking out at least one individual for assassination, and killed 10 innocent people. This may have subsequently resulted in angry confrontation with other crew who feared they were going to be next. That's what I believe happened, if precedent is anything to go by.

The only footage I've seen today was of terrified and cowering crew in one small part of a ship with injured around them and one crew holding a metal bar in a futile manner, given what faced him. I'm off to try find more footage.

prinz

DidierMc wrote: »

Do you also believe Poland invaded Germany in 1939 to start WW2? Because that was the offical German line at the time.

That was a very cleverly orchestrated move by the Germans. It wasn't the 'official line', it was a large operation to fake a Polish incursion.

Byron85

A very interesting development now concerning the two main political parties in Palestine.

Mohammad Dahlan, a senior member of Fatah, just announced that the party will send a delegation to Gaza to meet with Hamas for reconciliation talks, and that the Palestinian Authority will push for a UN Security Council resolution on lifting the blockade of Gaza.Hamas and Fatah have been bitterly at odds since Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, and months of recent reconciliation talks haven't led anywhere. So a Fatah delegation to Gaza could be a significant step.

alastair

taconnol wrote: »

Where is the evidence that they are paint ball guns?

They're clearly paintball guns in the video - presumably filled with CS gas balls

taconnol wrote: »

And if they are, which would be very strange indeed, how is an individual in the middle of the night supposed to know they are paint ball guns?

Good point - though we don't know what the deck lighting was like. A pretty dumb strategy by the IDF whatver way you look at it.

DidierMc

prinz wrote: »

That was a very cleverly orchestrated move by the Germans. It wasn't the 'official line', it was a large operation to fake a Polish incursion.

People like you would have believed it at the time no doubt

Winty

taconnol wrote: »

Firstly, they shouldn't have boarded. Do you accept

I dont know TBH. Israel has the right to stop Hamas from getting arms into Gaza. But Turkey say the boat was clean and Turkey is a country that Israel can trust and they should have taken advise from they.

But the IDF was only doing their masters work so when they got atttacked they attacked back. Its human nature

prinz

taconnol wrote: »

Where is the evidence that they are paint ball guns? And if they are, which would be very strange indeed, how is an individual in the middle of the night supposed to know they are paint ball guns?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

52 seconds in, IDF soldier with paintball gun.

1:01 in. Second IDF soldiers looks to have drawn a handgun.

Also if you watch the on board video from the Turkish on Sky News you can clearly hear paintball shots.

DidierMc

Winty wrote: »

I dont know TBH. Israel has the right to stop Hamas from getting arms into Gaza. But Turkey say the boat was clean and Turkey is a country that Israel can trust and they should have taken advise from they.

But the IDF was only doing their masters work so when they got atttacked they attacked back. Its human nature

You're a clown

prinz

DidierMc wrote: »

People like you would have believed it at the time no doubt

:rolleyes: No doubt about it.

DidierMc

prinz wrote: »

:rolleyes: No doubt about it.

Well you seem extremely keen to believe the propaganda of murderers

Sand

@taconnol

Boring? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been boring to the intended recipients.

I agree, but Palestinian friends have the disturbing tendency to be more interested in engaging in publicity stunts as opposed to meaningful assistance.

Do you have any evidence of this or is it your opinion?

Who seriously disputes it? Bonkey doesnt.

You see nothing wrong with Israeli soldiers illegally boarding a ship in a confrontational manner? I'd love to see how you react if highly armed Israeli soldiers started dropping onto your ship in the middle of the night.

I dont see it being particularly out of place given the way the flotilla organisers had attempted to provoke a confrontation and refused any Israeli compromise proposals.

If highly armed soldiers from anywhere started dropping onto my ship? Well the first thing Id do is grab a deckchair and take them all on because I am bulletproof ....

Seriously? Id put my hands in the air and not do anything rash. Boring, I know.

And are Israeli soldiers not taught to show restraint? Aren't they supposed to be able to board a ship without shooting 20 civilians dead?

They are front line combat soldiers, not policemen. Whilst they demonstrated restraint by bringing less than lethal weapons with them, they unfortunately were overpowered, dragged to the ground and were being kicked and beaten by a wild mob.

What restraint were you expecting armed front line soldiers to demonstrate in that position? Were they to allow themselves to be murdered? Were they to allow their friends and comrades to be murdered? You might think the life of any IDF soldier to be worthless and without value, but IDF soldiers would disagree.

I am sorry, only a person surrounded by a bubble of unreality could have been shocked by what happened when the mob started beating down armed soldiers. I feel bad for the families, in that the leadership of the flotilla may have encouraged this without adequately planning and controlling the nature of the resistance. They lost control, their passive resistance devolved into a mob and sadly the inevitable occured.

You seem to like this word "leadership". Would you not accept that the people on the ship were fully informed individuals, long engaged with the Palestinian situation and aware of the dangers? Why are you painting them as ignorant exploited people?

They attacked armed soldiers as a baying mob? Either they were completely innocent of the consequences of trying to murder armed soldiers or they were misled, or they lost control. There is a real requirement for leadership in confrontations like this - anger and emotions are raw, there needs to be a calm head keeping things controlled. If the organisers simply assumed their people would be grand figuring things out on their own...then perhaps that explains the devolution into a mob.

FunnyStuff

taconnol wrote: »

I'd love to see how you react if highly armed Israeli soldiers started dropping onto your ship in the middle of the night.

Well not attacking him would be a good start. Lets say you wake up at night to find an intruder in yr room, he says " gimme your money or i shoot". What would you do??

Macha

Winty wrote: »

But the IDF was only doing their masters work so when they got atttacked they attacked back. Its human nature

Does anyone remember the Reclaim The Streets march a few years ago when the gardai went mental and started beating everyone about the place for no reason? This is similar, only worse.

Why similar? Because they introduced revved up individuals with far too much fire power, which only served to escalate the whole situation further than was necessary. Who is at fault for escalating it? The IDF.

Human nature? Not good enough.

Winty

DidierMc wrote: »

You're a clown

Pro Israel is Bad, Pro Hamas is Good?

youcrazyjesus!

prinz wrote: »

That was a very cleverly orchestrated move by the Germans. It wasn't the 'official line', it was a large operation to fake a Polish incursion.

Of course it was the official line. Is there anything you do know about?

IrishTonyO

alastair wrote: »

They're clearly paintball guns in the video - presumably filled with CS gas balls



Good point - though we don't know what the deck lighting was like. A pretty dumb strategy by the IDF whatver way you look at it.

If they were filled with CS gas they are not paint guns

Mr.Micro

prinz wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

52 seconds in, IDF soldier with paintball gun.

1:01 in. Second IDF soldiers looks to have drawn a handgun.

Also if you watch the on board video from the Turkish on Sky News you can clearly hear paintball shots.

Ah sure its all a bit of fun.....the IDA ditched the paint ball guns cos' they did not kill anyone, no fun in that, and went for the real guns.

Chriskavo

Folks don't even qualify any of those false 'paintball gun' fairytales with a response. This is classic strawman argument put up by the trolls here. This was murder - plain and simple.

Macha

FunnyStuff wrote: »

Well not attacking him would be a good start. Lets say you wake up at night to find an intruder in yr room, he says " gimme your money or i shoot". What would you do??

Oh sure, I'd just lie back and take a nap.

I don't know how I would react. People react in different ways. Some people freeze, some people get angry and attack. Does it mean it was their fault they died? Or was it actually the fault of the intruder in their room, who shouldn't have been there in the first place?

Scofflaw

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Of course it was the official line. Is there anything you do know about?

DidierMc wrote:

You're a clown

Once again, I'll remind people that stepping out of line on this thread will result in harsher penalties than usual.

You're both banned for personal attacks.

moderately,
Scofflaw