Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

SugarHigh

This was posted on an Israeli news site.

A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife after Israel Navy commandos boarded their ship on May 31, 2010.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

Look at the window in the back and it's clearly in the middle of the day.:D

JupiterKid

For a long time I used to try and see Israel's point of view. But now I've lost any shred of sympathy I had for that country. Israel are acting illegally and without any regard to international law whatsoever.

In addition, it is a country that has illegally occupied its neighbouring countries for 43 years and had only itself and its extremist policies to blame for its isolation. Without American support and the powerful Zionist lobby there it would likely not exist at all. It is also a state founded on racism and religious bigotry.

All the EU countries should expel their Israeli ambassadors.

Prufrock

alastair wrote: »

Quite how you turn 'undermines the notion that they responded to being fired upon' into a suggestion that the protestors were packing guns escapes me.

If the IDF were fired upon (which I don't know), it seems most likely that it was with their own guns. The video the IDF have released would appear to show IDF stun grenades being used against the IDF.

I never said they had guns. :pac:

People shouldn't use the word fire as its suggestive that the protesters may have been armed when they clearly weren't.

Byron85

It has been reported on a Turkish news site that an assassination list has been found. I'm not entirely sure how accurate this is though.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zaman.com.tr%2Fhaber.do%3Fhaberno%3D990176%26title%3Dkafalari-karistiran-liste&sl=auto&tl=en

Look at the video on the bottom right of that page. It's only thirty seconds long but a book of some sort is shown to the camera with names and headshots beside them.

FunnyStuff

Prufrock wrote: »

the protesters may have been armed when they clearly weren't.

And you know this because..... they said so?!?!

Prufrock

FunnyStuff wrote: »

And you know this because..... they said so?!?!

I know this because the Turkish PM said the ship was checked while in port in Turkey. It contained no guns at that time. It was the last port they visited before the incident. There have been no reports of weapons having been found in the ship by Israeli authorities. So I'm going to say they were unarmed based on these facts. I could be wrong but we all could since any information we get will be second hand since none of us were there.

Rev Hellfire

Its all very sad *wipes another tear from eye*, but lets remember these people went into this with their eyes open. This was a flotilla which sought to break a military embargo, the risk of violence was always present. The cynical might even say violence was hoped for to raise the profile of those taking part.

Assuming that the commandos did meet resistance and attempts where made to seize their weapons, I for one wouldn't condemn them for seeking to defend themselves.

dlofnep

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its all very sad *wipes another tear from eye*, but lets remember these people went into this with their eyes open. This was a flotilla which sought to break a military embargo, the risk of violence was always present. The cynical might even say violence was hoped for to raise the profile of those taking part.

Assuming that the commandos did meet resistance and attempts where made to seize their weapons, I for one wouldn't condemn them for seeking to defend themselves.

Ah yes - The innocent armour-clad, gun-wielding IDF against the evil humanitarian activists. Are you that naive? Do you really believe that a group of activists intentionally attack the IDF, knowing that they are known to be trigger-happy?

This is condemnable for a few reasons.

• 19 people dead (reported so far). This is an excessive loss of life.
• Israel has no legal right to control Gazan waters.
• Israel has no legal right to attack or board a vessel in international waters.

Macha

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its all very sad *wipes another tear from eye*, but lets remember these people went into this with their eyes open. This was a flotilla which sought to break a military embargo, the risk of violence was always present. The cynical might even say violence was hoped for to raise the profile of those taking part.

This sort of disingenuous post is just totally unnecessary. If you don't care, then say you don't care but don't facetiously write things like the above, which serve only to make a mockery of the deaths.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Assuming that the commandos did meet resistance and attempts where made to seize their weapons, I for one wouldn't condemn them for seeking to defend themselves.

That logic can similarly be applied to the people on the flotilla, who had every right under international law to defend themselves after having been boarded illegally.

As usual Israel twists things to make themselves out to be the victim, while ignoring the blatant discrepancy in casualties of both sides. Mark Regev pleading for sympathy for an injured IDF soldier, while dismissing the deaths of the other side is sickening.

Rev Hellfire

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes - The innocent armour-clad, gun-wielding IDF against the evil humanitarian activists. Are you that naive? Do you really believe that a group of activists intentionally attack the IDF, knowing that they are known to be trigger-happy?

It seem clear that IDF met with resistance, nor is it unlikely that those on-board did not envisage the possibility of a boarding and take measures to counter it. The resistance and violence directed against the IDF proves this to be the case.

Few are naive enough to believe the caricature commonly portrayed of the Israelis as random killers out to slaughter the innocent :rolleyes:

sensibleken

FunnyStuff wrote: »

Well not attacking him would be a good start. Lets say you wake up at night to find an intruder in yr room, he says " gimme your money or i shoot". What would you do??

thats happened to me and i attacked back.

if an hostile army of a country with a history of murdering aid workers in cold blood invades your ship in international waters it is self defence.

IrishTonyO

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

It seem clear that IDF met with resistance, nor is it unlikely that those on-board did not envisage the possibility of a boarding and take measures to counter it. The resistance and violence directed against the IDF proves this to be the case.

Few are naive enough to believe the caricature commonly portrayed of the Israelis as random killers out to slaughter the innocent :rolleyes:

If someone breaks into your house and you defend yourself, are they entitled to kill as they feel threatened???? No they should not be there in the first place. Same thing applies here.

Rev Hellfire

taconnol wrote: »

pleading for sympathy for an injured IDF soldier, while dismissing the deaths of the other side is sickening.

I don't believe it is, these people deliberately placed themselves in a situation where they knew the resulting outcome was a possibility.
They aren't innocent, misguided and foolish perhaps.

Ardent

taconnol wrote: »

Is this a genuine question? You have Israeli soldiers illegally and aggressively boarding a ship in the middle of the night armed to the teeth with incredibly high-tech and expensive (thanks Uncle Sam) weaponry.

You have a metal pole but you're lucky in the end that only 20 of you are dead? If you have the gun, you have the advantage.

Only an idiot brings a metal pole to a gun fight.

wes

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't believe it is, these people deliberately placed themselves in a situation where they knew the resulting outcome was a possibility.
They aren't innocent, misguided and foolish perhaps.

They are innocent, and the IDF pirates, are guilty of murder. These poor people defended themselves from a group of pirates attacking there ship. The IDF had no right to stop there boat, and they then decided to board, and then murdered a bunch of people. No sympathy for all the crap, Israel will rightly receive for there piracy.

Macha

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't believe it is, these people deliberately placed themselves in a situation where they knew the resulting outcome was a possibility.
They aren't innocent, misguided and foolish perhaps.

I walk out of my apartment knowing being knocked down by a car is a possibility.

But let's look at why being killed, for wanting to bring some aid in is a possibility. You're basically acknowledging that the IDF is a loose canon, which is true.

Ardent wrote: »

Only an idiot brings a metal pole to a gun fight.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The flotilla was either laden down with guns, in which case they had it comin', or they didn't, in which case they're idiots. Does cognitive dissonance not hurt?

Denerick

The bottom line is that these people knew they got themselves into a situation where their lives would be at risk. I think they deliberately did so to garner maximum public attention. Maybe they didn't expect 20 deaths, but they were looking for some kind of squabble.

Hopefully once all the typical partisan nonsense dies down, we'll actually be able to find out what happened. Until that day, please carry on whacking your keyboards and decrying that evil military outpost in the middle east till your fingers begin to wear to the bone. Perhaps you can have a 'who's outraged the most' competition too.

Mezcita

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=de6_1275335660

Macha

Denerick wrote: »

The bottom line is that these people knew they got themselves into a situation where their lives would be at risk. I think they deliberately did so to garner maximum public attention. Maybe they didn't expect 20 deaths, but they were looking for some kind of squabble.

Why do you not even stop for a second to consider whether being killed should be a possibility for trying to bring aid into a country suffering a humanitarian crisis?

You just seem to accept this as the status quo, with no consideration.

Rev Hellfire

taconnol wrote: »

I walk out of my apartment knowing being knocked down by a car is a possibility.

Yes and no. A more accurate analogy would be to say "I walk out of my apartment onto the dual-carriageway knowing being knocked down by a car is a possibility".

The important distinction is they placed themselves deliberately in a place where they knew they could get struck down. Its hard to have sympathy to be honest.

Byron85

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The important distinction is they placed themselves deliberately in a place where they knew they could get struck down. Its hard to have sympathy to be honest.

Even though it appears an assassination list has been found?

It has been reported on a Turkish news site that an assassination list has been found. I'm not entirely sure how accurate this is though.

http://translate.google.com/translat...&sl=auto&tl=en

Look at the video on the bottom right of that page. It's only thirty seconds long but a book of some sort is shown to the camera with names and headshots beside them.

Macha

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Yes and no. A more accurate analogy would be to say "I walk out of my apartment onto the dual-carriageway knowing being knocked down by a car is a possibility".

The important distinction is they placed themselves deliberately in a place where they knew they could get struck down. Its hard to have sympathy to be honest.

I'll say it again. Why do you not stop to consider why it should be the case that being killed is a possibility for attempting to deliver aid to people suffering from a humanitarian crisis? Why do you simply accept that Israel react like this, without questioning?

Israel is a loose canon.

Rev Hellfire

Mezcita wrote: »

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=de6_1275335660

Says it all really.

wes

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Yes and no. A more accurate analogy would be to say "I walk out of my apartment onto the dual-carriageway knowing being knocked down by a car is a possibility".

The important distinction is they placed themselves deliberately in a place where they knew they could get struck down. Its hard to have sympathy to be honest.

No, they didn't expect the IDF to attack with commando's in the dead of night. The IDF are at fault here, and to blame there victims is imho deeply disturbing and wrong on several levels

The IDF had no right to attack them in International waters, and as such, make what they did piracy.

wes

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Says it all really.

No it doesn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U

Israel attacked first, and even if they did not, they had no right to board, the boat in International waters in the first place.

The people on the flotilla defended themselves from Pirates.

Macha

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Says it all really.

Yes, the fully armed specially trained Israeli soldiers, armed to the teeth attacking people who have only poles and chairs to defend themselves.

And ultimately, it's the death toll that says it all really. Yet again, Israel inflicts the most deaths and casualties but still tries to hold onto the victim flag. You can't have your cake and eat it.

WIZE

They were Actually tolds they would be intercepted if they continued to Gaza

The IDF just ****ed up thieir mission have murdered inocent people

dlofnep

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Says it all really.

No it doesn't. It doesn't show what happened prior to that moment. If the IDF had already shot and killed activists, they would be well within their rights to do such, given that they were being illegally boarded and attacked in international waters.

Also, the video is conveniently edited at 0:20. I spotted it, did you?

Rev Hellfire

taconnol wrote: »

Why do you not stop to consider why it should be the case that being killed is a possibility for attempting to deliver aid to people suffering from a humanitarian crisis?

If they had kept to exclusively peaceful means it wouldn't. Clearly they didn't and the soldiers where forced to defend themselves.

taconnol wrote: »

Why do you simply accept that Israel react like this, without questioning?

Who says I do?
In this one instance I believe them to be in the right with regards to defending themselves. The legitimacy or not of boarding in international waters is a different matter.

dlofnep

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If they had kept to exclusively peaceful means it wouldn't. Clearly they didn't and the soldiers where forced to defend themselves.

And where is the entire video that shows the operation from start to end, without edited footage?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Who says I do?
In this one instance I believe them to be in the right with regards to defending themselves. The legitimacy or not of boarding in international waters is a different matter.

Actually, it isn't a different matter. If they have no right to board the vessel, it's a very relevant matter. It's only a different matter because you have choosen to defend Israel.