Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Memnoch

Just want to add that we will probably never see the full footage of this incident. The leader of the Palistinian Solidarity movement in the UK Betty Hunter was on BBC news earlier being interviewed.

She said that there were numerous journalists who were on board the ship that was attacked but were forced to stop recording by the Israelis. The Israelis have no doubt confiscated this evidence and destroyed it.

Now they put out their own video, severely edited and with no sound, to tell their side of the story while they muzzle the international media that was on board by confiscating their materials. The brief turkish video released in the confusion was "live" and only caught a few seconds in the middle of the siege.

I would urge all neutral posters to be severely skeptical of the claims of the IDF as well as their apologisers who have spent all day doing their best to deliberately obfuscate events and misrepresent in order to minimize condemnation for cold blooded murder.

Unarmed civilians we're illegally boarded and fired upon in international waters and when they in desperation tried to defend themselves, they were coldly murdered. No amount of propaganda and lies and misrepresentation will change that and we should not allow the sacrifice of these hereos and the crimes of the IDF acting with impunity to ever be forgotten.

wes

prinz wrote: »

So what? We can just ignore law and order now?

Well Israel does it all the time....

prinz wrote: »

I decide tomorrow that the gardaí have lost credibility in my eyes does give me the right to drive through a checkpoint tomorrow?
Did the joyriders in the North have the right to drive through checkpoints? Was it the British Army's fault that they then opened fire?

You seem to think Israel has some right to put a siege on Gaza, when it is clearly in violation of International law. International law trumps Israel law, and they are the ones violating Law and order.

So, once again, Israel sieges is a small and petty act of collective punishment on the people of Gaza, no different than Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians, except Israel does it on a far grander scale.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

It's the same attitude which pervades hardliners on both sides and makes compromise etc impossible.

Your claims to represent neutrality and a moderate perspective hold no water with me. Please don't pretend that you are coming from a balanced perspective when you have tried to use every single arguement to minimise the reality of the Israeli actions and obfuscate the severity of their crimes.

Scofflaw

prinz wrote: »

So what? We can just ignore law and order now? I decide tomorrow that the gardaí have lost credibility in my eyes does give me the right to drive through a checkpoint tomorrow? Did the joyriders in the North have the right to drive through checkpoints? Was it the British Army's fault that they then opened fire?

If Israel were operating a blockade on a transparent basis, even - where the lists of items were openly declared, and not subject to arbitrary change - you might have a point. As it is, you're saying that an aid convoy should have handed over its material to someone who arbitrarily decides what can and cannot be allowed into Gaza.

Can you see why that might not be such a great a deal, really? It's a basis on which the UN has decided to put boots on the ground in other countries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wes

prinz wrote: »

It's the same attitude which pervades hardliners on both sides and makes compromise etc impossible.

Oh please, I said both Hamas, and the IDF are both untrustworthy, and again what i post has no effect on anything in the ME, and your insinuation of me being a hardliner is absurd.

I say both are untrustworthy, and I say this as an outside party. I have no involvement in the conflict, and as such have no effect on it.

Also, you are again going off topic, and making this about other posters, which violates the charter last time I checked. So its best this is dropped.

prinz

wes wrote: »

So, once again, Israel sieges is a small and petty act of collective punishment on the people of Gaza, no different than Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians, except Israel does it on a far grander scale.

Er yes. The siege is ridiculous and impossible to maintain. That said I believe in the Israeli right to try to put a stranglehold on Hamas and their rocketlaunching buddies.

Memnoch wrote: »

Your claims to represent neutrality and a moderate perspective hold no water with me. Please don't pretend that you are coming from a balanced perspective when you have tried to use every single arguement to minimise the reality of the Israeli actions and obfuscate the severity of their crimes.

Holds no water with you? OK.

El Horseboxo

prinz wrote: »

It matches perfectly with the footage from the Turkish crew on board.



Flashbangs are thrown in/dropped first. You don't want your own soldiers disorientated by them. They are used to try and clear the landing area before the soldiers from the helicopters.

I know what flash bangs are for.

So the activists picked up these thrown in/dropped flash bangs, managed to reset the pin and kept them for use until the IDF landed on the ship? Because that is the only way the activists could have flash bangs prior to IDF forces landing on the ship.

prinz

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I know what flash bangs are for.
So the activists picked up these thrown in/dropped flash bangs, managed to reset the pin and kept them for use until the IDF landed on the ship? Because that is the only way the activists could have flash bangs prior to IDF forces landing on the ship.

Israeli soldiers landed at different times at different places on the ship.

leincar

I've been out of the loop on a lot of this during the day as Im working in South Africa on the world cup, but just a quick comment. As some of you will know(I'm thinking Wes here) I am a huge supporter of Israel and its right to exist, my wife is Israeli-American and did her national service in the IDF. Part of the reason we left Israel was we did not want our daughters to grow up and have to complete their National Service in the IDF.

What happened today was wrong. No other word is needed. The action taken by the IDF was an act of madness and ultimately will have brought thousands of Palastinians rushing into the arms of Hamas. From this no good will come. Even tonight my wife has been pleading with her parents to leave Israel and go back to the States as she fears what the future will hold.

As an aside, to put it up to Israel to solve the problem of Gaza, I think it is time for The Egyptians to grow a pair of balls and open the border at Rafah.

wes

prinz wrote: »

Er yes. The siege is ridiculous and impossible to maintain. That said I believe in the Israeli right to try to put a stranglehold on Hamas and their rocketlaunching buddies.

I see no difference between Hamas and Israel anymore. What Israel is doing makes them as bad as Hamas. I think the West needs to put sanctions on Israel due to there actions. Personally, both sides need to be treated the same by the West, and maybe then they both might cut the crap.

prinz

wes wrote: »

I see no difference between Hamas and Israel anymore. What Israel is doing makes them as bad as Hamas. I think the West needs to put sanctions on Israel due to there actions. Personally, both sides need to be treated the same by the West, and maybe then they both might cut the crap.

Absolutely, no objection here.

youcrazyjesus!

Some pleasing posts. Some common ground at last!

Byron85

Deputy Israeli Ambassador on The Frontline now.

Obfuscation is the name of the game folks. It seems that internet broadcasts from the ship in the days leading up last night were being intercepted and they were saying "lets kill the Jews". The Ambassador just said that on National television. These people have no shame.

Manic Moran

These poor people defended themselves from a group of pirates attacking there ship. The IDF had no right to stop there boat, and they then decided to board, and then murdered a bunch of people. No sympathy for all the crap, Israel will rightly receive for there piracy.

In the US, it is perfectly legal to resist an unlawful arrest by police. It is perfectly legal to shoot police who have executed erroneous search warrants or are otherwise on your property without legal right. This is settled law, from the US Supreme Court.

On occasion, some activist will come onto a board I'm on, and ask for opinions or recommendations on resisting arrest. My advice has always been "You will lose. Shut up, do what you're told, and go for the long term victory in the courts." Being 'right' does you very little good if you're in hospital or dead. Who knows, maybe I'd make a poor revolutionary.

Out of interest, has there been any footage or statements released from the other five ships which were boarded? The actions on both sides which resulted in no clashes may demonstrate the official mindsets that were in play.

NTM

Mayo Exile

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps they didn't believe that either? Seriously, at this stage Israel could carry what's left of its good name in a sock with a hole in it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes. From Entebbe Airport 1976 to now. A painful fall from grace. Since the invasion of Lebanon in 1978, the Israeli belief in the primacy of a military solution to all sorts and sizes of perceived threats is proving flawed to say the least. Has it brought peace and stability to Israel and its neighbours? No it has not. Todays action was wrong on every count.

Byron85

"They had very sophisticated weapons such as knives". That was another quote from the Israeli Ambassador on The Frontline. Even Pat took issue with that comment.

yoshytoshy

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

"They had very sophisticated weapons such as knives". That was another quote from the Israeli Ambassador on The Frontline. Even Pat took issue with that comment.

They all seem to have the same arrogant manner ,ears closed and mouth open.

Simplicius

wonders if this forum is more about winning the arguement as the most reasonable person in history or actually about the topic... I suspect with the most frequent posters, it is not the topic that counts but the debating.

Shame something so serious is reduced to points scoring on forums against familiar online foes of debate.

the endless nit picking at the topic is neglecting the bigger picture

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

In the US, it is perfectly legal to resist an unlawful arrest by police. It is perfectly legal to shoot police who have executed erroneous search warrants or are otherwise on your property without legal right. This is settled law, from the US Supreme Court.

On occasion, some activist will come onto a board I'm on, and ask for opinions or recommendations on resisting arrest. My advice has always been "You will lose. Shut up, do what you're told, and go for the long term victory in the courts." Being 'right' does you very little good if you're in hospital or dead. Who knows, maybe I'd make a poor revolutionary.

The differences, I think, are that (a) in the home case you're only acting on your own behalf, so only your own welfare is at stake, and (b) you have the likelihood of long-term victory in the courts.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Out of interest, has there been any footage or statements released from the other five ships which were boarded? The actions on both sides which resulted in no clashes may demonstrate the official mindsets that were in play.

An interesting question.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Manic Moran

The differences, I think, are that (a) in the home case you're only acting on your own behalf, so only your own welfare is at stake, and (b) you have the likelihood of long-term victory in the courts.

(a) By offering resistance, do not the agitators put all their shipmates at risk as well? Heck, the Israelis might have just left the ship and shelled it instead.
(b) Had nobody been hurt, the ships commandeered, and sent to Ashod, do you not believe that various parties would be preaching to high heavens and anyone else that would listen that "Look! The Evil Israelis have done it again?"
Given that this aid shipment seem to have been more about politics than aid, I'd be amazed if they didn't have a whole PR spin set up for such an eventuality.

NTM

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

(a) By offering resistance, do not the agitators put all their shipmates at risk as well? Heck, the Israelis might have just left the ship and shelled it instead.

They do, but their view is that they're acting on behalf of the people of Gaza. People die for their countries, people die for their people. If you're on the other side, those people are terrorists, troublemakers, and criminals - nearly all our national heroes were so described. The Israelis honour those who died for Israel - but past victimhood is not a carte blanche. In many people's eyes, Israel has moved from oppressed to oppressor, and the heroism is on the other side.

Manic Moran wrote: »

(b) Had nobody been hurt, the ships commandeered, and sent to Ashod, do you not believe that various parties would be preaching to high heavens and anyone else that would listen that "Look! The Evil Israelis have done it again?"
Given that this aid shipment seem to have been more about politics than aid, I'd be amazed if they didn't have a whole PR spin set up for such an eventuality.

I'm absolutely sure they did, and I'm sure the Israelis would have then done something that could be spun into a propaganda message - but so? As it stands, Israel's actions have been condemned in the European Parliament, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, the UK, Iceland, Norway...alright, the list is too long to write out (you can see it here) - and it's well-deserved, and nobody really made it happen but Israel.

In the long run, Israel is losing this propaganda battle by always resorting to violence first - and still it hasn't managed to settle peacefully into place. That can't last. I don't believe Israel can't survive without outside help, which is the only true test of a country's right to exist, but they will be a lot less comfortable if they manage to make themselves a pariah state.

If the aim of the flotilla was to provoke Israeli violence, why did it only happen on one ship?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Manic Moran

the aim of the flotilla was to provoke Israeli violence, why did it only happen on one ship?

I would be extremely surprised if that were the case, and I don't believe I ever claimed that they did. I do believe they wanted to provoke an Israeli reaction and I'd be surprised if the flotilla's organisers aren't as pissed at the people on the one ship that acted violently as they are at the Israelis. I'd be similarly extremely surprised if the captains weren't told 'In event of boarding, read this script protesting the unlawful boarding of your vessel. Then do what you're told and we'll take it from there'

but so? As it stands, Israel's actions have been condemned

Yes, and as it stands a number of people have been killed or injured. Or they could have gone peaceably, there might have been less condemnation of Israel but there would be some, and nobody would have been hurt.

NTM

snow ghost

Manic Moran wrote: »

Yes, and as it stands a number of people have been killed or injured. Or they could have gone peaceably, there might have been less condemnation of Israel but there would be some, and nobody would have been hurt.

They seem to have been going very peaceably... unless we are to believe the Israeli propaganda machine, and lets face it that is only there to dupe Americans, the rest of the World is wise to their lies.

Essentially Israel were doing what they always do which is to get in the first blow and hope that it is so devastating that it will deter any future attempts to challenge it in any way.

This misguided strategy ultimately always fails and is counter productive.

bernardo mac

Would be most interested to read the views on this subject from someone who served with the UN peace force in the Middle East

Manic Moran

bernardo mac wrote: »

Would be most interested to read the views on this subject from someone who served with the UN peace force in the Middle East

Lailah Black Rabbit has made a number of posts on this thread. I don't know who else is a UNIFIL veteran offhand.

NTM

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

I would be extremely surprised if that were the case, and I don't believe I ever claimed that they did. I do believe they wanted to provoke an Israeli reaction and I'd be surprised if the flotilla's organisers aren't as pissed at the people on the one ship that acted violently as they are at the Israelis. I'd be similarly extremely surprised if the captains weren't told 'In event of boarding, read this script protesting the unlawful boarding of your vessel. Then do what you're told and we'll take it from there'

Yes, and as it stands a number of people have been killed or injured. Or they could have gone peaceably, there might have been less condemnation of Israel but there would be some, and nobody would have been hurt.

NTM

True - but I think you're calling on people who believe Israel is oppressing their country to submit peacefully to Israeli actions in order not to give Israel opportunities to shoot itself in the foot by shooting them in the head.

If the intention of the flotilla was not to get itself shot up - as seems the case from the way that the violence was restricted to one ship and the clear lack of preparation for such action on the part of the people on board - it seems yet more likely that what happened on that ship was the result, expressly, of the boarding itself, and something about the manner in which the boarding went on board that ship. That was in the hands of the Israelis - whether it was an accident, a botch, whatever, it was not handled properly, and Israel, and nobody else, has to take responsibility for it. Unfortunately, they have chosen not to.

It's not enough to say that Israel will have to review its "boarding procedures" - people are dead, and at the end of the day they're dead because armed men were dropped into a tense situation, and they shot people. It's arrogant to believe that you'll either never have a cock-up of that kind, or that you can get away with taking no responsibility for such a cock-up - again, either way, Israel has blown another huge hole in its reputation. You can't keep doing that forever.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

prinz wrote: »

Has the legality been established?

Yep - and it's been highlighted to you a number of times in this thread.

prinz wrote: »

The one Israel hasn't signed up to?

The one Israel has signed up for - and you've seen relevent article in the convention yourself

prinz wrote: »

Except it does and can legally occur.

No it doesn't.

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

Makikomi has made a number of posts on this thread. I don't know who else is a UNIFIL veteran offhand.

NTM

I'm not sure that Makikomi could in any sense be said to be neutral, though - as I imagine he would be the first to hold his hand up to say.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

Denerick wrote: »

It wouldn't have made any difference to 99% of people if the same thing had happened off the coast of Tel Aviv.

The territorial waters off Israel (or Gaza for that matter - given that Israel is the de-facto military controller of those coastal waters) would offer a modicum of legal cover to Israel, even if it was unjustifiable given the context of the searches of the ships contents before sailing. Israel has no such legal cover when it sends it's military to forceably board ships in international waters.

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

... Israel has blown another huge hole in its reputation. You can't keep doing that forever.

One would like to think that there is a limit, but it is difficult to see where it is. Every so often Israel does something that seems to me to be a step too far, and time and again their major ally backs them while the rest of the international community summon up peeps of protest and little else.