Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

PeakOutput

actually here is an interesting question that iv seen posed on a different forum

why dont people use the egyptian border to get their aid in if israel is so hell bent on stopping it? surely the egyptians (not being israel) have border policies that are reasonable in the activists eyes and if they dont why dont they?

why try and force your way threw israels blockade when there is a perfectly reasonable country also with a border to gaza?

irishconvert

PeakOutput wrote: »

actually here is an interesting question that iv seen posed on a different forum

why dont people use the egyptian border to get their aid in if israel is so hell bent on stopping it? surely the egyptians (not being israel) have border policies that are reasonable in the activists eyes and if they dont why dont they?

why try and force your way threw israels blockade when there is a perfectly reasonable country also with a border to gaza?

Not at all. The Egyptians are puppets of the Israel. There was an aid convey trying to pass through Egypt to get to Gaza in December last year and Egypt tried everything in it's power to stop it including attacking the convoy with riot police. Egypt help impose the blockade in Gaza.

If you want to search for it look for Viva Palestinia convey from last December, lots of reports on Google.

PeakOutput

irishconvert wrote: »

Egypt help impose the blockade in Gaza.

and why do you think they do that then?

irishconvert

PeakOutput wrote: »

and why do you think they do that then?

I don't know, pressure from Israel and other governments?

alastair

PeakOutput wrote: »

the convoys must pass through israeli waters to get to gaza

Israeli-controlled waters. The Gaza territorial waters aren't Israeli, and they don't claim them to be - the interim agreement in place (sort of) with the PA allows them continued military control of the territorial waters.

Byron85

Just found some footage of some Israelis celebrating the attack on the flotilla in front of the Turkish embassy. :mad:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

gandalf

kiffer wrote: »

... Weapons found on the Mavi Marmara...



notice the highly dangerous sharpener to go along with the kitchen knife set...
a handful of small folding knives, a screwdriver and a Jambiya dagger.
I would reasonably expect to find this mix of knives... a medium kitchen's worth plus a small number of knives that people might carry for utility ('cept the Jambiya). If I wanted to throw together a defense with a little notice I would expect it too look like this... improvised weapons, kitchen knives, pocket knives and tools from the ship.

But then there's what is shown in this video; Slingshots/catapults with bottles of pebbles, a large number of gas masks, a selection of tools (ok, ships need tools) and a lot bars (iron and wooden... which seems odd) and something that the IDF call firebombs, but are labeled as smoke torches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM

Not a single gun though...

These are the sophisticated weapons that the Israeli Deputy Ambassador was harping on about. My god he must feel really stupid going in front of an Irish audience and spouting that rubbish. It looks like someone tipped out the cutlery drawer and toolbox onto the ships deck!

Looks like the IDF and Israeli authorities have hired Comical Ali to concoct their propaganda.

Rev Hellfire

PeakOutput wrote: »

why try and force your way threw israels blockade when there is a perfectly reasonable country also with a border to gaza?

Possibly because one of the goals of the flotilla was to ensure media coverage.

irishconvert

deadtiger wrote: »

These are the sophisticated weapons that the Israeli Deputy Ambassador was harping on about. My god he must feel really stupid going in front of an Irish audience and spouting that rubbish. It looks like someone tipped out the cutlery drawer and toolbox onto the ships deck!

Looks like the IDF and Israeli authorities have hired Comical Ali to concoct their propaganda.

Looks like the contents of my kitchen drawer. What a joke.

The bottom line is what the Israelies have done in indefensible and no matter how much spin they put in it ordinary people can see through the deceit and lies. Even the Israeli embassador was having a hard time defending the actions on six-one news last night, he didn't even seem convienced of what he was saying himself.

irishconvert

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Possibly because one of the goals of the flotilla was to ensure media coverage.

No, Egypt will not let aid through. As I said already, a convoy had serious trouble last December trying to get through Egypt to Gaza with many people being arrested and expelled from Egypt.

alastair

PeakOutput wrote: »

and why do you think they do that then?

They don't want trouble with Israel.

They don't want to deal with Hamas.

They don't want to risk opening themselves up to another Palestinian mass exodus.

They don't/didn't operate the border monitoring themselves anyway - that was an EU body (EUBAM), and when Hamas booted out Fatah, the EU body wouldn't deal with Hamas.

PeakOutput

alastair wrote: »

They don't want trouble with Israel.

They don't want to deal with Hamas.

They don't want to risk opening themselves up to another Palestinian mass exodus.

They don't/didn't operate the border monitoring themselves anyway - that was an EU body (EUBAM), and when Hamas booted out Fatah, the EU body wouldn't deal with Hamas.

ah ok so israel arent the only ones to have a problem gaza,hmmmm,interesting. if this is the case i wonder what other similar actions egypt would take that israel are being demonised for?

also i dont know about your kitchen drawer, but i dont have carved, gripped wooden bats in mine, my steaks arent that big but i guess the activists have the biggest juiciest steaks to feast on on their voyage

Rev Hellfire

irishconvert wrote: »

No, Egypt will not let aid through. As I said already, a convoy had serious trouble last December trying to get through Egypt to Gaza with many people being arrested and expelled from Egypt.

Indeed you're correct on that score, though they're really paying lip-service to the blockade when you take into account their reluctance to to seriously tackle the issue of the tunnels from their territory.

The flotilla was as much a media exercise as a 'humanitarian' one and confrontation with the Israelis was preferable to one with the Egyptian boarder authorities in terms of media coverage.

gbee

Israeli troops are the elite of the world. Always on alert always ready to fire.
You know, if I had been the captain of that ship, I’d have stopped ~ the Israelis don’t count to ten or ask the punks to make their day ….

alastair

PeakOutput wrote: »

ah ok so israel arent the only ones to have a problem gaza,hmmmm,interesting. if this is the case i wonder what other similar actions egypt would take that israel are being demonised for?

Egypt isn't blockading Gaza. They've just closed their border. They don't have a problem with shipping having access to Gaza port. Israel is the state with the aid restriction list, the naval blockade, and the duty of humanitarian care to Gaza. There's a distinct difference.

PeakOutput

alastair wrote: »

Egypt isn't blockading Gaza. They've just closed their border. They don't have a problem with shipping having access to Gaza port. Israel is the state with the aid restriction list, the naval blockade, and the duty of humanitarian care to Gaza. There's a distinct difference.

so egypt lets zero aid threw? zero being less then 25% that israel lets threw? why is this?

alastair

PeakOutput wrote: »

also i dont know about your kitchen drawer, but i dont have carved, gripped wooden bats in mine, my steaks arent that big but i guess the activists have the biggest juiciest steaks to feast on on their voyage

Don't know about the wooden bats, but any ferry like that has a full-sized kitchen with all sorts of catering knives - including the big ones photographed.

alastair

PeakOutput wrote: »

so egypt lets zero aid threw? zero being less then 25% that israel lets threw? why is this?

Because they've no obligation to provide aid to Gaza. Israel do. The mechanism for supply of aid is mainly through the UNRWA - which operates between Israel and Gaza.

jonsnow

PeakOutput wrote: »

if turkey do escort the ships it wont make any difference, the israelis wont let their warships into their waters and the convoys must pass through israeli waters to get to gaza so they will just wait for the warships to feck off once the convoy reaches their waters. if the warships dont feck off and enter israli waters they are compeltely open to being attacked and id be very very suprised is the turks had anywhere nears as sophisticated a navy as israel

the turks getting warships involved is retarded

Not that it would ever ever happen.but the turkish navy would crush the israeli navy.

The israeli navy is a glorified coastguard while the turkish navy ranks eighth in the world in terms of staff, with 51,000 active personnel; and third largest in Europe in terms of the displacement of the total fleet, with 258,948 tons

gandalf

PeakOutput wrote: »

also i dont know about your kitchen drawer, but i dont have carved, gripped wooden bats in mine, my steaks arent that big but i guess the activists have the biggest juiciest steaks to feast on on their voyage

Even if those bats don't have a function on a ship (and I have no idea about what items are used on a ship) it doesn't justify the use of lethal force on people. I also note that the 2 guns that the Israelis were harping on about are no where to be seen.

If a demonstration was taking place on the streets of Dublin and the protesters were carrying bats like those the police would not use lethal force on them.

Also why board the ship the way they did. If they felt that they were taking part in a legitimate operation why not do it during daylight hours where they could clearly identify themselves and could clearly isolate any "heroes" on the deck of the boat.

And finally why board the ships illegally in International Waters when if you waited a few more hours and a few more miles you could board them legitimately.

gizmo555

PeakOutput wrote: »

id be very very suprised is the turks had anywhere nears as sophisticated a navy as israel

You couldn't be more wrong there. The Turkish Navy is one of the largest in the world and as the CIA World Factbook puts it:

The Turkish Navy is a regional naval power that wants to develop the capability to project power beyond Turkey's coastal waters; the Navy is heavily involved in NATO, multinational, and UN operations; its roles include control of territorial waters and security for sea lines of communications. (My emphasis.)

Turkey has also in the past conducted joint naval manouevres with Israel and so presumably has very good knowledge of the Israeli Navy and its capabilities.

omega666

PeakOutput wrote: »

if turkey do escort the ships it wont make any difference, the israelis wont let their warships into their waters and the convoys must pass through israeli waters to get to gaza so they will just wait for the warships to feck off once the convoy reaches their waters. if the warships dont feck off and enter israli waters they are compeltely open to being attacked and id be very very suprised is the turks had anywhere nears as sophisticated a navy as israel

the turks getting warships involved is retarded

I believe the turks do have a more sophisticated navy that the israelies.
Check it out, the Turks are one of the top 10 military's powers in the world,
very moderinised equipment and have alot more soldiers than israels
so would be well able to take care of themselves.


The Top 10 Military Powers of the World
Unites States of America
China
Russia
India
United Kingdom
France
Germany
Brazil
Japan
Turkey

PeakOutput

thanks for correcting me on that one as i said i am suprised but thats fair enough. i still think egypt would get crushed on the hole if they entered israeli waters

police would not use lethal force on them.

soldiers and police are incomparable im afraid

Also why board the ship the way they did. If they felt that they were taking part in a legitimate operation why not do it during daylight hours where they could clearly identify themselves and could clearly isolate any "heroes" on the deck of the boat.

when planning a military operation you look for the most advantage possible not the least, suprise, darkness and swiftness provide this

gandalf

PeakOutput wrote: »

soldiers and police are incomparable im afraid

Thanks for proving my point. At worst this should have been handled like a policing operation and not a military incursion.

when planning a military operation you look for the most advantage possible not the least, suprise, darkness and swiftness provide this

And they made a complete and utter cock of that as well. But it still doesn't take away from the fact it was an illegal operation on International Waters. It was an act of piracy, murder and kidnapping by a rogue regime.

Scuba Ste

PeakOutput wrote: »

thanks for correcting me on that one as i said i am suprised but thats fair enough. i still think egypt would get crushed on the hole if they entered israeli waters



soldiers and police are incomparable im afraid



when planning a military operation you look for the most advantage possible not the least, suprise, darkness and swiftness provide this

Since when are military operations a proportionate response to a flotilla of civilian activists.

Macha

deadtiger wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point. At worst this should have been handled like a policing operation and not a military incursion.

That's exactly right. There are countless examples in the recent past of governments sending in soldiers to situations that they can't handle. The end result is the killing of significant numbers of civilians.

Bloody Sunday is a classic example of this scenario.

Rev Hellfire

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Since when are military operations a proportionate response to a flotilla of civilian activists.

When those civilian activists seek to interfere with a military operation, the blockade in this case.

wes

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

When those civilian activists seek to interfere with a military operation, the blockade in this case.

When, that military activity is againist international law, then those engaged in it are at fault.

gandalf

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

When those civilian activists seek to interfere with a military operation, the blockade in this case.

They were in International Waters so when the assault occurred they hadn't interfered with a military operation.

Are the IDF deploying a "pre-crime" division now

Brown Bomber

Pro-Israelis celebrating the massacre outside the Turkish embassy in Tel-Aviv.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMzc1N1Cx3s